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Match-Up Discussion - Mileena Mileena Matchup Discussion

loogie

Noob
How do you guys feel about the piercing-shaolin matchup?
I find it problematic.. if you get in the b12 range, Shaolin outranges her with his b123 or f24 .. and if you try to zone and not careful he gets a divekick in
problem I have though, the main one vs Shaolin is his sky drop.. deceptively safe, does he do the overhead or not! .. I don't like this matchup one bit
 

Paul the Octopus

Slow Starter
Hmmmm, not sure about that. The MU may be hard/losing but i find the term 7-3 is thrown around way too often.
I picked up Sun God recently but haven't tried the matchup. Why is it so bad? In my mind the way it works is that full screen sun god can parry all sais on reaction, at 2/3 screen the threat of j1 makes it scary to throw sais, and up close it seems like kotal would do fine?
 

TheGabStandard

The anticipation is killing me
I picked up Sun God recently but haven't tried the matchup. Why is it so bad? In my mind the way it works is that full screen sun god can parry all sais on reaction, at 2/3 screen the threat of j1 makes it scary to throw sais, and up close it seems like kotal would do fine?
I have a few ideas but havent played the MU in the XL era. If you are free tonight we can play the MU and see how it is?
 

Paul the Octopus

Slow Starter
I have a few ideas but havent played the MU in the XL era. If you are free tonight we can play the MU and see how it is?
If my internet is working, I'm totally down to run the MU. However, I moved flats recently and during the evenings (peak time for Internet usage in my area), I often go from 50mbps to literally 2-3mbps and online becomes unplayable. Virgin Media is trying to fix but they estimate it might take until mid-May.

If not today, we can try Saturday or Sunday morning/early afternoon if you are free though.
 

Tweedy

Noob
I've played the match up quite a bit vs good players. I'm not going to debate match up specifics with the Mileena community, though(any valid points I make will always be downplayed or ignored). I'd rather just play Shaolin Jin or someone as a secondary, that doesn't get blown up by her.

Edit: I understand that the response that i'll get will be something like "oh well you just don't know what you're talking about, that's why you're not posting anything specific", but i'd rather take that route, than engage in a debate with easily the ugliest community on the site. I've been down that road before.
 

Yoaks

A spaceman
I've played the match up quite a bit vs good players. I'm not going to debate match up specifics with the Mileena community, though(any valid points I make will always be downplayed or ignored). I'd rather just play Shaolin Jin or someone as a secondary, that doesn't get blown up by her.

Edit: I understand that the response that i'll get will be something like "oh well you just don't know what you're talking about, that's why you're not posting anything specific", but i'd rather take that route, than engage in a debate with easily the ugliest community on the site. I've been down that road before.
If you honestly think she 7-3s him. Why not give reasons instead of this?

I honestly don't think she beats him. Maybe I'm doing something wrong in the mu? I lose this mu just as much as I win it.

What does Piercing Mileena do that absolutely bodies War God Kotal?
 

Yoaks

A spaceman
@Tweedy I'll give my reasonings on why I think this mu is even. But I'm clocking in for work in a couple of minutes. Once I get off I'll make that post.

I want to start actually having actual match up discussions in this forum instead of ppl throwing out ridiculous numbers without any reasons.
 

TheGabStandard

The anticipation is killing me
I've played the match up quite a bit vs good players. I'm not going to debate match up specifics with the Mileena community, though(any valid points I make will always be downplayed or ignored). I'd rather just play Shaolin Jin or someone as a secondary, that doesn't get blown up by her.

Edit: I understand that the response that i'll get will be something like "oh well you just don't know what you're talking about, that's why you're not posting anything specific", but i'd rather take that route, than engage in a debate with easily the ugliest community on the site. I've been down that road before.
It is a shame you feel that way as I am legit curious as to why you think it is 7-3 and just have a discussion. If you would like then please feel free to PM me your thoughts and can talk there.
 

Generalbit

The blade of osh-tekk is stale.
I will give my reasons and I am not afraid to be blown up or proven wrong.
Let me preface by saying that I am of the mind that mileena has no bad mu's and if she does they are few and far between. So if you read that, and think I am crazy, do not read on.
This mu is excrutiatingly painful for Kotal. Mileena counters absolutely every one of kotal's options. She zones him rather well, AA's him free with that damn ball. Air to Air conversions out the ass and also outreaches kotal's j1 w her j4, she breaks his armor easy with her meaty PLUS f2 that can be used to continue pressure if she doesn't break your armor due to the easy hit confirmability of her f2. She out footsie's K w b12, has better staggers than K's b1 with many of her strings, her armor is faster and also breaks other armor (for example if you try and expose her gap in any string into ex ball her armor will break yours before you hit her). She also has multiple plus strings and moves that can be used to bait, or roll a counter-poke, and she also has a low sai to throw out whenever she has meter because a smart player is ready for the ball, but her low special, unlike K's leaves the opponent standing with hit advantage enough to continue pressure before one can armor out of hit advantage.I was showed that mileena v kotal is wrecked. I know what you're thinking though, "But general, just play patiently! God you fucking idiot...." to that I say, playing patiently waiting for a good mileena to hang themselves won't happen. They won't do anything unsafe unless they feel the need to, which they won't ever feel the need to against Kotal. And the odds you defend well enough for the other guy to get bored and just throw out roll is unlikely in itself.
 

YoloRoll1stHit

Publicly Educated
Kotal's best mid is 9f B1, best poke is 6f long range d4. I can't see how people keep saying Mileena out footsie Kotal with her 11f B1 and short pokes. Kotal's [whatever that string is] air grab frame trap is universal in all variation right?
 

Generalbit

The blade of osh-tekk is stale.
Kotal's best mid is 9f B1, best poke is 6f long range d4. I can't see how people keep saying Mileena out footsie Kotal with her 11f B1 and short pokes. Kotal's [whatever that string is] air grab frame trap is universal in all variation right?
Frame trap? LoL

But I'm not here to downplay kotal, I'm here to give my opinion on the matchup. Because I was asked to, b1 for mileena outranges Kotal's b1 and his d4, so yes she outfootsies him. Just cuz he has a 2 frame faster mid, doesn't mean he beats her in the neutral.
 

YoloRoll1stHit

Publicly Educated
Frame trap? LoL

But I'm not here to downplay kotal, I'm here to give my opinion on the matchup. Because I was asked to, b1 for mileena outranges Kotal's b1 and his d4, so yes she outfootsies him. Just cuz he has a 2 frame faster mid, doesn't mean he beats her in the neutral.
I mean he has something cancel into air grab that ends up plus block right?
 
Before XL, I had heard Mileena v Kotal was even and usually in Blood god. Even then some suggested that Mileena countered Kotal. So now that Mileena's Sai game got stronger, I can see how on paper she SHOULD be winning this MU. Not sure if it's exactly 7/3 but I can see how it could be 6/4 at least.
That being said, Kotal's D4 is a pain to deal with if, as Mileena, you're looking to B1. (low profile and what-not).

As for the whole EX Roll as a counterpoke, that's mostly a player gamble. Yes it's faster, but it's still unsafe. If you guess it, you'll get your full combo, or at least force a break. So the mindgame is either try to interrupt her gaps for a combo, or bait her armor for a combo.
 

TheGabStandard

The anticipation is killing me
I will give my reasons and I am not afraid to be blown up or proven wrong.
Let me preface by saying that I am of the mind that mileena has no bad mu's and if she does they are few and far between. So if you read that, and think I am crazy, do not read on.
This mu is excrutiatingly painful for Kotal. Mileena counters absolutely every one of kotal's options. She zones him rather well, AA's him free with that damn ball. Air to Air conversions out the ass and also outreaches kotal's j1 w her j4, she breaks his armor easy with her meaty PLUS f2 that can be used to continue pressure if she doesn't break your armor due to the easy hit confirmability of her f2. She out footsie's K w b12, has better staggers than K's b1 with many of her strings, her armor is faster and also breaks other armor (for example if you try and expose her gap in any string into ex ball her armor will break yours before you hit her). She also has multiple plus strings and moves that can be used to bait, or roll a counter-poke, and she also has a low sai to throw out whenever she has meter because a smart player is ready for the ball, but her low special, unlike K's leaves the opponent standing with hit advantage enough to continue pressure before one can armor out of hit advantage.I was showed that mileena v kotal is wrecked. I know what you're thinking though, "But general, just play patiently! God you fucking idiot...." to that I say, playing patiently waiting for a good mileena to hang themselves won't happen. They won't do anything unsafe unless they feel the need to, which they won't ever feel the need to against Kotal. And the odds you defend well enough for the other guy to get bored and just throw out roll is unlikely in itself.
Thanks for posting your response.

Firstly most your points I agree with. Zoning by her now is really strong, anti airs with B1 and Roll can make Kotal's J1 appear useless and armour break with F1 (off certain enders/setups) is a given.

Roll/Ex Roll being used as a counterpoke is a pretty hard read at the end of the day. To be honest it shouldn't be used too often as a counterpoke due to it's high risk. But if it is used and it works every single time it does seem broken, if it is a wrong read and it is blocked then free punish for you.

Also your point about Low Sai giving enough advantage to continue pressure. Low Sai is +7 on hit and Ex is +8. Now unless it is done at point blank range to guarantee a D1, no follow up from Mileena is guaranteed so in theory you should be able to armour any follow up after Low Sai on hit.

B12 outfootsies Kotal....I can see that although may I ask what is the options for Kotal in the B12 meta game? I would like to think his D1 and D4 is good enough to challenge a follow up to B12 after it is blocked in addition to armour and B1 (depending on spacing).
 
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