Match-Up Discussion - Mileena Mileena Matchup Discussion

[Generalbit]

Thanks for posting your response.

Firstly most your points I agree with. Zoning by her now is really strong, anti airs with B1 and Roll can make Kotal's J1 appear useless and armour break with F1 (off certain enders/setups) is a given.

Roll/Ex Roll being used as a counterpoke is a pretty hard read at the end of the day. To be honest it shouldn't be used too often as a counterpoke due to it's high risk. But if it is used and it works every single time it does seem broken, if it is a wrong read and it is blocked then free punish for you.

Also your point about Low Sai giving enough advantage to continue pressure. Low Sai is +7 on hit and Ex is +8. Now unless it is done at point blank range to guarantee a D1, no follow up from Mileena is guaranteed so in theory you should be able to armour any follow up after Low Sai on hit.

B12 outfootsies Kotal....I can see that although may I ask what is the options for Kotal in the B12 meta game? I would like to think his D1 and D4 is good enough to challenge a follow up to B12 after it is blocked in addition to armour and B1 (depending on spacing).

Thank you for replying to my reply.

What I meant though it is poorly worded I give you that, is that mileena can use one of her plus (or safe) strings to try and get kotal to counterpoke and then ex roll me for trying to escape her staggers and pressure. Kotal against almost any other character can read this and have an armor pissing contest, one which K usually wins. But M's roll is double hitting and quicker so she will win this contest 90% of the time.

Ex roll being used as a counterpoke is risky absolutely, that's why it is better used in reaction to one of kotal's many many gaps. I don't want to go into every gap kotal has but I can if you would like me to, some of which have visible tells a player can learn. The point is that Kotal is on the worse end of the mind game even when he is on offense. At least that's the sense I get because even without exploiting the gaps, unlike other character's mileena can reversal punish most of kotal's blocked sword moves and aside from the safe one (with an easily visible gap) she can punish the rest w b1 for her meter less 35% into restand. While as if kotal hits one he gets 9% into negative knockdown (low, continued below), or 9% again from an OH that is also not very good on hit. The risk reward is not in his favor.

I will be the first to admit that I was wrong on frames of low sai, after I wrote that I went back and double checked and found I was wrong. But the point on it still stands that mileena, in a similar way to kotal, is meant to instill fear of the OH ball roll. So she can basically get free low sais whenever she wants and this leaves her at advantage with them standing. While on the other side of this coin, Kotal's low sword is negative on hit and trips them to the floor. Against mileena Kotal can't b1 her wu roll, so kotal, who already doesn't have the best knockdown mind games to say the least, now can only poke to beat her wu. This makes it strange as mileena has no real fear when knocked down, and knows I must basically respect her with or without meter so now she is free to explore her multitude of options. While for low sai, she is left w advantage to run up and enforce her mind game.

And your next point, B12 for M is a massively useful tool in this matchup. Let me start with the benefits to this stagger over K's b1 stagger pressure. The obvious is that b12 has 2 hits. This means 2 opportunities for staggers. B1, and B12 are both strong and useful staggers with their own individual mind games if the M player knows how to use them. K's b1 on the other hand is a single stagger, therefore this leads to it being more readable as you only have to predict/react once since there isn't a second hit he can stagger. You either block and then expose the stagger, or block then keep blocking and expose the gap that will follow, or simple punish the sword move itself. As opposed to mileena's where there are 3 options: block the b1 then expose the stagger, block b12 then expose the stagger, or block b12 and keep blocking the OH, low sai, straight sai, then punish. On the block game M's b12 is a fundamentally better stagger than K's. But now the meat of your question, what are K's options should I read/react to the stagger? Well I have a few, tho none are amazing. If done at max effective range of b12 K can't use his b1 as a counter because I am too far, I can however low pro ur followup w d4. But this can be whiff punished from max range if I miss because you were too far. I can armor, I can backdash, I can jump back, I do have options. But no more or less than many other characters against M's amazing b12.

Each of these on their own is not enough to even take a matchup to anything more than even, but these coupled together along with her amazing meter less punish damage, into strong AA's that make my j1 obsolete, to her zoning and keep away game, to her armor breaking and screen control. It really makes it hard for the K player to get any sort of game going. These all factored in are why I think this matchup is a 3-7 for kotal.

If I am wrong or you disagree please explain as this is a discussion and that is how discussions work.

 

[Tweedy]

Land EX overhead or lose.

That's the basis of a couple match ups in the game, for War God. Seriously.

 

[TheGabStandard]

@Generalbit i would have quoted but it would be a very long post.

Everything you said is a pretty sound argument and I can see why it can be viewed as that hard of a match. The gaps is a big issue as well with one or two can be punished with meterless Roll so no need to armour at all times.

Will suggest a few ideas/potential scenarios to discuss later as about to head out but honestly it is looking grim at the moment. Thanks for taking the time to explain though.

 

[Generalbit]

@Generalbit i would have quoted but it would be a very long post.

Everything you said is a pretty sound argument and I can see why it can be viewed as that hard of a match. The gaps is a big issue as well with one or two can be punished with meterless Roll so no need to armour at all times.

Will suggest a few ideas/potential scenarios to discuss later as about to head out but honestly it is looking grim at the moment. Thanks for taking the time to explain though.

No problem! Talking about Kotal is one of my favorite things to do, but is also my main cause of depression lol, anytime

 

[Paul the Octopus]

Before XL mileena wasn't even with

Thank you for replying to my reply.

What I meant though it is poorly worded I give you that, is that mileena can use one of her plus (or safe) strings to try and get kotal to counterpoke and then ex roll me for trying to escape her staggers and pressure. Kotal against almost any other character can read this and have an armor pissing contest, one which K usually wins. But M's roll is double hitting and quicker so she will win this contest 90% of the time.

Ex roll being used as a counterpoke is risky absolutely, that's why it is better used in reaction to one of kotal's many many gaps. I don't want to go into every gap kotal has but I can if you would like me to, some of which have visible tells a player can learn. The point is that Kotal is on the worse end of the mind game even when he is on offense. At least that's the sense I get because even without exploiting the gaps, unlike other character's mileena can reversal punish most of kotal's blocked sword moves and aside from the safe one (with an easily visible gap) she can punish the rest w b1 for her meter less 35% into restand. While as if kotal hits one he gets 9% into negative knockdown (low, continued below), or 9% again from an OH that is also not very good on hit. The risk reward is not in his favor.

I will be the first to admit that I was wrong on frames of low sai, after I wrote that I went back and double checked and found I was wrong. But the point on it still stands that mileena, in a similar way to kotal, is meant to instill fear of the OH ball roll. So she can basically get free low sais whenever she wants and this leaves her at advantage with them standing. While on the other side of this coin, Kotal's low sword is negative on hit and trips them to the floor. Against mileena Kotal can't b1 her wu roll, so kotal, who already doesn't have the best knockdown mind games to say the least, now can only poke to beat her wu. This makes it strange as mileena has no real fear when knocked down, and knows I must basically respect her with or without meter so now she is free to explore her multitude of options. While for low sai, she is left w advantage to run up and enforce her mind game.

And your next point, B12 for M is a massively useful tool in this matchup. Let me start with the benefits to this stagger over K's b1 stagger pressure. The obvious is that b12 has 2 hits. This means 2 opportunities for staggers. B1, and B12 are both strong and useful staggers with their own individual mind games if the M player knows how to use them. K's b1 on the other hand is a single stagger, therefore this leads to it being more readable as you only have to predict/react once since there isn't a second hit he can stagger. You either block and then expose the stagger, or block then keep blocking and expose the gap that will follow, or simple punish the sword move itself. As opposed to mileena's where there are 3 options: block the b1 then expose the stagger, block b12 then expose the stagger, or block b12 and keep blocking the OH, low sai, straight sai, then punish. On the block game M's b12 is a fundamentally better stagger than K's. But now the meat of your question, what are K's options should I read/react to the stagger? Well I have a few, tho none are amazing. If done at max effective range of b12 K can't use his b1 as a counter because I am too far, I can however low pro ur followup w d4. But this can be whiff punished from max range if I miss because you were too far. I can armor, I can backdash, I can jump back, I do have options. But no more or less than many other characters against M's amazing b12.

Each of these on their own is not enough to even take a matchup to anything more than even, but these coupled together along with her amazing meter less punish damage, into strong AA's that make my j1 obsolete, to her zoning and keep away game, to her armor breaking and screen control. It really makes it hard for the K player to get any sort of game going. These all factored in are why I think this matchup is a 3-7 for kotal.

If I am wrong or you disagree please explain as this is a discussion and that is how discussions work.

I think you may have mis-tested a couple things.
1) B1 does crush wake up roll ... if it's not working, you are slightly late on it
2) Mileena's b1 does not outrange Kotal's b1, they are actually the exact same range - from start of round, both will hit most the time but can miss due to breathing hitboxes. While Mileena probably has better stagger options off her string, Kotal's is faster by 2 frames. Kotal also has f1 and f2 which outrange Mileena. This is offset by Kotal's poor back walk speed, but I wouldn't say Mileena has a clear cut footsie advantage.

I also disagree on a few things:
1) I don't think low sai is very free. While it's scary for Kotal to block low, it should also be scary for Mileena to go for this option - the risk is huge, as low sais are -17 on block and full combo punished when used as a string ender
2) Kotal's b122 is -10 with pushback. This is not punishable by roll or b1. While Mileena can make a read and armor when you cancel this into a special, it's not a reaction - if Kotal just ends here as bait, he can punish the reversal.

I think Mileena easily shuts down all the derpy stuff that many Kotals will usually rely on so you have to play quite different, but I'm not convinced it's worse than 6-4. I'm not saying I am personally capable of playing the matchup from Kotal's perspective super well by the way - I'm just saying that it seems like he has tools and the right player could probably show the matchup isn't as bad as people think.

 

[YoloRoll1stHit]

If you get a hard knockdown with enough advantage you can njp to avoid ex roll. She has only 1 wake up, it's easy to beat. Everyone can do that. If she decides not to ex roll on wake up you can land with nj kick to get plus frame then go back to your footsie game.

 

[Generalbit]

I think you may have mis-tested a couple things.
1) B1 does crush wake up roll ... if it's not working, you are slightly late on it
2) Mileena's b1 does not outrange Kotal's b1, they are actually the exact same range - from start of round, both will hit most the time but can miss due to breathing hitboxes. While Mileena probably has better stagger options off her string, Kotal's is faster by 2 frames. Kotal also has f1 and f2 which outrange Mileena. This is offset by Kotal's poor back walk speed, but I wouldn't say Mileena has a clear cut footsie advantage.

I also disagree on a few things:
1) I don't think low sai is very free. While it's scary for Kotal to block low, it should also be scary for Mileena to go for this option - the risk is huge, as low sais are -17 on block and full combo punished when used as a string ender
2) Kotal's b122 is -10 with pushback. This is not punishable by roll or b1. While Mileena can make a read and armor when you cancel this into a special, it's not a reaction - if Kotal just ends here as bait, he can punish the reversal.

I think Mileena easily shuts down all the derpy stuff that many Kotals will usually rely on so you have to play quite different, but I'm not convinced it's worse than 6-4. I'm not saying I am personally capable of playing the matchup from Kotal's perspective super well by the way - I'm just saying that it seems like he has tools and the right player could probably show the matchup isn't as bad as people think.

1) B1 off of a low sword can't crush roll, the frames just don't let it. D1 is too far away to hit the roll, and d4 trades most of the time.
2) Range is better if by only a little, plus as a move while it is slower it also has more universal uses. AA, stagger, punish, etc while Kotal's b1 and f1 are both good as well are not as universally useful for all situations. M's b12 is like K's f1 and b1 in a single move. F2 with total is death against mileena on block and is too slow to really be called better than f1. It leads to damage on a read of a jump but it's not good on block or punishing.

1) Low sais are relatively free when mileena has bar. This I can speak to if they are conditioned correctly. I can feel confident saying this because of the way I play kotal, I make my opponent know I'm not afraid to OH smack them. Then I get free low swords, except mileena's low special has much more reward on hit. (see above with the whole "b1 doesn't crush wu ball after low sword"
2) Yes I can bait off of b122, just remember that saw blade (the safe option) is 26 frames on startup so that is easily reachable with a mb ball to expose gap. And b14 is -17 with a gap into everything so that isn't even a read. While b122 sword mixup is a string tool, and if you fear it, you can block OH if you fear the mb oh for whatever reason and punish if they decide to do that, and just get hit by the low which, as mentioned before, doesn't give Kotal any form of advantage against mileena. But for giggles I will also repeat that off any correct guess mileena can free punish any of K's sword moves (except df2 obvi) for 35% meter less to restand or ball reversal for whatever the combo off that is.

Summary
I'm not saying I have no options, I do. It's just that all of my potential options M can counter effectively. Mileena also plays a similar game as K except she does it better, with less gaps, and more consistently. This is, in my humble opinion, one of K's worst mu's. Not hating on mileena or anything, just that this matchup is so frustrating and difficult to play against, I started just not picking Kotal. I instead just pick kano cuz I feel he has a better chance and can actually do better than mileena in certain aspects.

 

[Yoaks]

1) B1 off of a low sword can't crush roll, the frames just don't let it. D1 is too far away to hit the roll, and d4 trades most of the time.
2) Range is better if by only a little, plus as a move while it is slower it also has more universal uses. AA, stagger, punish, etc while Kotal's b1 and f1 are both good as well are not as universally useful for all situations. M's b12 is like K's f1 and b1 in a single move. F2 with total is death against mileena on block and is too slow to really be called better than f1. It leads to damage on a read of a jump but it's not good on block or punishing.

1) Low sais are relatively free when mileena has bar. This I can speak to if they are conditioned correctly. I can feel confident saying this because of the way I play kotal, I make my opponent know I'm not afraid to OH smack them. Then I get free low swords, except mileena's low special has much more reward on hit. (see above with the whole "b1 doesn't crush wu ball after low sword"
2) Yes I can bait off of b122, just remember that saw blade (the safe option) is 26 frames on startup so that is easily reachable with a mb ball to expose gap. And b14 is -17 with a gap into everything so that isn't even a read. While b122 sword mixup is a string tool, and if you fear it, you can block OH if you fear the mb oh for whatever reason and punish if they decide to do that, and just get hit by the low which, as mentioned before, doesn't give Kotal any form of advantage against mileena. But for giggles I will also repeat that off any correct guess mileena can free punish any of K's sword moves (except df2 obvi) for 35% meter less to restand or ball reversal for whatever the combo off that is.

Summary
I'm not saying I have no options, I do. It's just that all of my potential options M can counter effectively. Mileena also plays a similar game as K except she does it better, with less gaps, and more consistently. This is, in my humble opinion, one of K's worst mu's. Not hating on mileena or anything, just that this matchup is so frustrating and difficult to play against, I started just not picking Kotal. I instead just pick kano cuz I feel he has a better chance and can actually do better than mileena in certain aspects.

Why try to stuff roll after low sword if it won't work? Just bait it.

Your b1 does the exact same things as Mileena. It aas, stagger is just as good and it is actually better at punishing since its 2 frames faster.

Kotals f2 is 100% safe against Mileena. Its her turn but she can not punish it.

Why would ever cancel into Saw Blade after b122 without hit confirming knowing that there's a huge gap?

B14 into low sword stuffs raw roll. She can mb roll the gap but b14 oh sword stuffs that. Or you can do b14 ex sword toss for plus frames. The only time Kotal shouldn't use b14 is if your playing Blood god.

 

[Generalbit]

Why try to stuff roll after low sword if it won't work? Just bait it.

Your b1 does the exact same things as Mileena. It aas, stagger is just as good and it is actually better at punishing since its 2 frames faster.

Kotals f2 is 100% safe against Mileena. Its her turn but she can not punish it.

Why would ever cancel into Saw Blade after b122 without hit confirming knowing that there's a huge gap?

B14 into low sword stuffs raw roll. She can mb roll the gap but b14 oh sword stuffs that. Or you can do b14 ex sword toss for plus frames. The only time Kotal shouldn't use b14 is if your playing Blood god.

Thank you for telling me about f2 being safe. I actually didn't know that, but unfortunately it doesn't help the matchup.
Against mileena what will my 2 frame faster move punish that I can't punish w f1 for more meter less damage?
B1 aa's yea, but it leads to much less damage than mileenas which leads to her position choice and set up
B122 has it's own meta that is strange to understand. If you always hit confirm to avoid the gap you lose the mixup. And are always guaranteed to lose your turn, but if you go for the mixup you are punishable if your wrong. Plus I as a kotal want to do everything I possibly can to keep my turn.
If I always bait roll she can do so much on her KD that is just annoying. That's why hitting a db2 is just as risky for the kotal as it is for mileena, and again risky if she gets hit.

EDIT
b14 xx sword throw is still interruptible by mb ball

 

[TheGabStandard]

Kotals f2 is 100% safe against Mileena. Its her turn but she can not punish it.

Standing 2 disagrees. While it is a tight punish with practice you can full combo punish F2 every time

 

[Generalbit]

Standing 2 disagrees. While it is a tight punish with practice you can full combo punish F2 every time

Now I'm sad, I was just happy I could throw it out whenever

 

[YoloRoll1stHit]

Standing 2 disagrees. While it is a tight punish with practice you can full combo punish F2 every time

She has to stand block Kotal F2, this is not what we usually do because most of the time blocking low against Kotal is better (d4 says hi)

 

[Yoaks]

Standing 2 disagrees. While it is a tight punish with practice you can full combo punish F2 every time

I had forgot about 2 punishing that. I remember you or maybe someone else posting about it. I'll hold that for being wrong.

It seems to me as I'm thinking about the mu here at work, that its more than likely in her favor than what I previously thought. Her risk/reward is better. Where Kotals isn't. Her zoning is probably a lot more troublesome for him since he doesn't have parry. She always has more meter than him and hardly ever has to use it. And off of combos she can opt for a hard knockdown for the f1 armor break pressure/mixup. Or go for the restand.

I don't think its free for Mileena but I agree now that she has an edge at this point.

 

[Baconlord]

1) B1 off of a low sword can't crush roll, the frames just don't let it. D1 is too far away to hit the roll, and d4 trades most of the time.
2) Range is better if by only a little, plus as a move while it is slower it also has more universal uses. AA, stagger, punish, etc while Kotal's b1 and f1 are both good as well are not as universally useful for all situations. M's b12 is like K's f1 and b1 in a single move. F2 with total is death against mileena on block and is too slow to really be called better than f1. It leads to damage on a read of a jump but it's not good on block or punishing.

1) Low sais are relatively free when mileena has bar. This I can speak to if they are conditioned correctly. I can feel confident saying this because of the way I play kotal, I make my opponent know I'm not afraid to OH smack them. Then I get free low swords, except mileena's low special has much more reward on hit. (see above with the whole "b1 doesn't crush wu ball after low sword"
2) Yes I can bait off of b122, just remember that saw blade (the safe option) is 26 frames on startup so that is easily reachable with a mb ball to expose gap. And b14 is -17 with a gap into everything so that isn't even a read. While b122 sword mixup is a string tool, and if you fear it, you can block OH if you fear the mb oh for whatever reason and punish if they decide to do that, and just get hit by the low which, as mentioned before, doesn't give Kotal any form of advantage against mileena. But for giggles I will also repeat that off any correct guess mileena can free punish any of K's sword moves (except df2 obvi) for 35% meter less to restand or ball reversal for whatever the combo off that is.

Summary
I'm not saying I have no options, I do. It's just that all of my potential options M can counter effectively. Mileena also plays a similar game as K except she does it better, with less gaps, and more consistently. This is, in my humble opinion, one of K's worst mu's. Not hating on mileena or anything, just that this matchup is so frustrating and difficult to play against, I started just not picking Kotal. I instead just pick kano cuz I feel he has a better chance and can actually do better than mileena in certain aspects.

Kotal's b1 is much better as a stager string then mileena's. Mileena's b1 stager is a gimmick

 

[Generalbit]

Kotal's b1 is much better as a stager string then mileena's. Mileena's b1 stager is a gimmick

I'm just gonna say that I disagree. I feel this is one of the more subjective, for example: takeda's f12 stagger on paper isn't good, but the follow up in actuality is really threatening so the stagger commands respect. Similar to Milena's b12

 

[Baconlord]

I'm just gonna say that I disagree. I feel this is one of the more subjective, for example: takeda's f12 stagger on paper isn't good, but the follow up in actuality is really threatening so the stagger commands respect. Similar to Milena's b12

B1 has to much recovery. You can react to her stagers

 

[TheGabStandard]

@Generalbit @Yoaks @YoloRoll1stHit

I have to rescind my statement about s2 vs F2. It seems there is now more pushback on Kotal's F2 on block meaning that Mileena's standing 2 now whiffs. Obviously Roll is blocked so Kotal's F2 is completely safe, just technically loses his turn unless the Kotal wants to risk doing D1 afterwards.

I swear so many little things about this game has changed...

 

[Generalbit]

@Generalbit @Yoaks @YoloRoll1stHit

I have to rescind my statement about s2 vs F2. It seems there is now more pushback on Kotal's F2 on block meaning that Mileena's standing 2 now whiffs. Obviously Roll is blocked so Kotal's F2 is completely safe, just technically loses his turn unless the Kotal wants to risk doing D1 afterwards.

I swear so many little things about this game has changed...

cool

 

[YoloRoll1stHit]

B1 has to much recovery. You can react to her stagers

Mileena's B1 has better recovery and is -1 on block. Kotal's B1 has more recovery (5f more) and is -2 on block. Mileena B1 stagger is better because everything Kotal does after B1 is very minus and has a lot of recovery frame

 

[MKCastiel]

Got a few questions about MU's and how you guys play them. What are your opinions on Piercing vs

- Swarm Queen Dvorah
- Quan Chi

Dvorah im actually getting the hang of, and starting to win way more consistently. But its far from easy. f11 makes throwing out b12 a little more scary, and that jip makes you be careful of when you throw Sai's. What are your thoughts/strategies on this MU?

Quan Chi is one that i recently became curious on. Unfortunately i get almost no practise vsing it, so most of it is all theory. Summoner and Sorcerer i feel wouldnt be too bad, you could contest the zoning, and break sorcerer's armour portal with EX TP. However, i feel like Mileena loses severely full screen against Warlock. F3, mixed with rune, and skull make it very hard imo. Again, what are people's thoughts/strategies against Quan ( All variations ), Cheers.

 

[leoj89]

what can be done about scorpion ? I rarely if ever see any top 8 player use him yet he is consistently my hardest match up online. He takes half my health on touch. I don't want to call him brain dead but how does every random scorpion player pull off the same feat of beating me to a pulp. I'm loss ,please help.

 

[Artur Medeiros]

can someone help me?
how do you deal with sub-zero, the ice-clone and corner game? im losing this matchup 7-3... i dont know if im just playing way too wrong, i feel i get overwhelmed by the slide, b2 and jump ins, sometimes i cant properly punish him because the clone is still there and it ll freeze if i touch it.
do you have any advice for me?
thank you!!

 

[leoj89]

can someone help me?
how do you deal with sub-zero, the ice-clone and corner game? im losing this matchup 7-3... i dont know if im just playing way too wrong, i feel i get overwhelmed by the slide, b2 and jump ins, sometimes i cant properly punish him because the clone is still there and it ll freeze if i touch it.
do you have any advice for me?
thank you!!

My best advice is don't let him push you into the corner and always look out for an escape route when he does. Play very patient and relatively safe to frustrate your opponent .

I was hunting down the Tom Brady vs. F0xy videos but it seems like everything has been taken down or put behind a paywall. I don't know if new Sub tech was released but I have noticed an overall improvement in Sub community with mil/sub match up.


edit: Heres some good footage of
A Foxy Grampa's Mileena vs. Madzin's Sub-Zero

 

[Skylight1]

Any advice on Ravenous/Ethereal Mileena against Demolition/Special Forces Sonya and Cyrax?

 

[Artur Medeiros]

My best advice is don't let him push you into the corner and always look out for an escape route when he does. Play very patient and relatively safe to frustrate your opponent .

I was hunting down the Tom Brady vs. F0xy videos but it seems like everything has been taken down or put behind a paywall. I don't know if new Sub tech was released but I have noticed an overall improvement in Sub community with mil/sub match up.


edit: Heres some good footage of
A Foxy Grampa's Mileena vs. Madzin's Sub-Zero

really apreciated! good info!
thanks for the help. someone told me tom has been beaten 29-1... is it true?
im taking notes here