Match-up Discussion Martian Manhunter Match Up Discussion

[Espio]

No way Grundy matchup is in Grundy favor, 5-5 at least.

Why? How does he keep him out or stop walking corpse with its three hits of armor? His zoning isn't exactly the fastest nor is it multi-hitting to stuff out Grundy's advances with armor.

Grundy gets to play his game, while Martian Manhunter doesn't and has to play much more cautious than Grundy.

What does he take away from Grundy?

 

[Doombawkz]

Eh, actually I'm hurt you didn't tag me at all for the Bane discussion.
I don't know why but I find MMH to be a slightly easier MU, I'd say its on the lighter side of 6-4 our favour and the heavier side of 5-5 or 5.5-4.5, namely because we never ~have~ to use charge and most of your wake-ups aren't grab immune. We can use charge as an oki and it'll blow up everything (ports included) and really we don't ever have to go above level 2 for damage (gets us about 50% give or take). Outside of trait, iirc d.2 and d.1 outrange everything mmh has and we can do d.1 DP pretty much all day.

The biggest cooldown and mobility debuff we have to take would be 3.5~ seconds and the mobility would put us on par with... Grundy? I think. We also have the backdash at our disposal, and we don't need to fear your ranged attacks all that much. The only problem we really have is if we get read, but even then its far from being anything close to a bad MU. With our venom on cooldown, we still have access to MB f.3 which, to my recollection, also beats all of the wake-ups and is +9 overhead on block which can be linked into stuff like 123 charge and 223 charge, which should cover the entire cooldown. We can also do stuff like d.2xxDP out of the MB f.3 on block which is a jailed throw and incredibly hard to escape from close up.

This is one of the few MUs where Bane doesn't have to respect the projectile game or the wake-ups, and the combo starters and stuff like 22b.3 can usually be scouted and punched through.

 

[Darth Mao]

Why? How does he keep him out or stop walking corpse with its three hits of armor? His zoning isn't exactly the fastest nor is it multi-hitting to stuff out Grundy's advances with armor.

Grundy gets to play his game, while Martian Manhunter doesn't and has to play much more cautious than Grundy.

What does he take away from Grundy?

b2~db3 beats WC

 

[Espio]

Eh, actually I'm hurt you didn't tag me at all for the Bane discussion.
I don't know why but I find MMH to be a slightly easier MU, I'd say its on the lighter side of 6-4 our favour and the heavier side of 5-5 or 5.5-4.5, namely because we never ~have~ to use charge and most of your wake-ups aren't grab immune. We can use charge as an oki and it'll blow up everything (ports included) and really we don't ever have to go above level 2 for damage (gets us about 50% give or take). Outside of trait, iirc d.2 and d.1 outrange everything mmh has and we can do d.1 DP pretty much all day.

The biggest cooldown and mobility debuff we have to take would be 3.5~ seconds and the mobility would put us on par with... Grundy? I think. We also have the backdash at our disposal, and we don't need to fear your ranged attacks all that much. The only problem we really have is if we get read, but even then its far from being anything close to a bad MU. With our venom on cooldown, we still have access to MB f.3 which, to my recollection, also beats all of the wake-ups and is +9 overhead on block which can be linked into stuff like 123 charge and 223 charge, which should cover the entire cooldown. We can also do stuff like d.2xxDP out of the MB f.3 on block which is a jailed throw and incredibly hard to escape from close up.

This is one of the few MUs where Bane doesn't have to respect the projectile game or the wake-ups, and the combo starters and stuff like 22b.3 can usually be scouted and punched through.

Who are you addressing on not tagging you? I don't usually tag anyone for match up discussions lol.

It might be in Bane's favor, I think armor heavy characters can give him issues. I'm just going off my general experience thus far. We should run this match up. I'm not above thinking he loses and we posted some of our thoughts on the match up on a previous page so feel free to review that if you'd like.

Yes, 2,2, back 3 has an exploitable gap that everyone has an option to blow up/stuff it. If you don't use charge much, that allows him to set things up more comfortably as opposed to if he's trying to scout out/deal with charge that makes him more hesitant to set things up.

If you're not using level three venom ever you're not going to discourage MB back 3 usage or as I recall I was able to stuff some of his regular armored options with well spaced zoning despite MMH's zoning being on the slower side.

Although the focus should not be on zoning out Bane per se.

 

[Doombawkz]

Who are you addressing on not tagging you? I don't usually tag anyone for match up discussions lol.

It might be in Bane's favor, I think armor heavy characters can give him issues. I'm just going off my general experience thus far. We should run this match up. I'm not above thinking he loses and I posted some of my thoughts on the match up on a previous page so feel free to review that if you'd like.

Yes, 2,2, back 3 has an exploitable gap that everyone has an option to blow up/stuff it. If you don't use charge much, that allows him to set things up more comfortably as opposed to if he's trying to scout out/deal with charge that makes him more hesitant to set things up.

If you're not using level three venom ever you're not going to discourage MB back 3 usage or as I recall I was able to stuff some of his regular armored options with well spaced zoning despite MMH's zoning being in the slower side.

I saw a few, generally I agree that armor gives him crap. Also, everyone should always tag me

22b.3 is basically a free anything for us, so you can expect a BP or something. As far as me not using charge much, I never said I wouldn't (its one of his better tools) but that I didn't have to use it to like get in. Know what I mean? I'm agreeing about the dash.

As far as "never" using level 3, we can but we don't "have to". Like as I said, the biggest debuff we'd have to take is about 3.5~, and that's because about 2.5 seconds can be spent off doing pretty much any Mb special. We don't really even have a level 2 debuff, but for the sake of damage we don't need much else.

Draining MMH of his meter and trading out ~20% for ~30% damage for 1 bar means your essentially only getting 10% damage advantage and hindering yourself for later combos since, without meter, you don't have anything to threaten us with when we are in debuff. One of the big things about Bane is although everyone can MB b.3 him, if they aren't getting efficient damage then its not really something we have to worry about. You can't keep us out, after all, while we can be defensive and keep you away when we need to.

 

[Rebelo]

What is it that mmh does in the sinestro match that makes it 7-3 mmh ?

 

[Tiger Wong]

What do you guys typically do to punish/ check Shazam's psycho crusher?

After some research and a session, it seems standing 3 punishes it everytime. No matter the range.

 

[Rude]

I think Batman/MMH is very close to even.

 

[fr stack]

I think Batman/MMH is very close to even.

agreed batmans trait evens this match out

 

[Espio]

After the patch I was hoping the MMH community could pull their heads together to work on more comprehensive breakdowns for match ups with him.

Numbers are nice, but they don't tell much. For those of us with certain expertise in some match ups they could take those on (like I could cover Hawkgirl and some others for example, while Storm The Gates might have really good insight on the Superman or Black Adam match up).

Hopefully we can get everyone involved in this .

 

[Rude]

That is an epic sig, Espio.

 

[AK Stormthegates]

After the patch I was hoping the MMH community could pull their heads together to work on more comprehensive breakdowns for match ups with him.

Numbers are nice, but they don't tell much. For those of us with certain expertise in some match ups they could take those on (like I could cover Hawkgirl and some others for example, while Storm The Gates might have really good insight on the Superman or Black Adam match up).

Hopefully we can get everyone involved in this .

Honestly in my entire span playing MMH I have NEVER played Smarr's BA in more than 2-3 games. I blame Pig of the Hut.

The superman matchup is sorta rough. Probably a 4-6 or a rough 5-5. The goal is to stay out of f23 range as much as you can. Traited 3, d1 and 22 help alot in this matchup and if you can get full screen he kinda packs it to your zoning game since if he jumps you get free telepunch. Also I would go for max damage in combos midscreen instead of orb setups since df2 is pretty much a get out of jail card. If by some act of god you get him in the corner get as much damage as you can with orb setups and try your best to make him bait wakeup df2 and putting him back in the blender. The matchup is all about doing better reads than superman outderping you, so you have to be on your A game. POSTPATCH might be a completely different story though depending on how hard his f2 and his overall damage got touched. Heres hoping for the best.

Unfortunately I probably won't be playing MMH for a bit. I have to get ready for the uprising of MMH players especially in my scene.

 

[Darth Mao]

Today I had a long training with my teammate and I could try some alternatives to control the matchup against Grundy. WC is the smallest problem for me now after a few hours in training mode testing some things. Here's the list of options I found [and tested] who stop WC:

1 [block]

• 3
• 3~bf3
• 3~db3
• 3~db3~d
• db3
• db3~d

1,1 [block]

• 3
• 3~bf3
• 3~db3
• 3~db3~d
• db3
• db3~d

2 [block]

• 3
• 3~bf3
• 3~db3
• 3~db3~d
• db3
• db3~d

2,2 [block]

• 3
• 3~bf3
• 3~db3
• 3~db3~d
• db3
• db3~d

2,2,2 [block]

• 3
• 3~bf3
• 3~db3
• 3~db3~d
• db3
• db3~d

3 [block]

• 3
• 3~bf3
• 3~db3
• 3~db3~d
• db3
• db3~d
• 22b3

j1 [block]

• 3
• 3~bf3
• 3~db3
• 3~db3~d
• db3
• db3~d

j2 [block]

• 3
• 3~bf3
• 3~db3
• 3~db3~d
• db3
• db3~d

j3 [block]

• 3
• 3~bf3
• 3~db3
• 3~db3~d
• db3
• db3~d

f1 [block]

• 3
• 3~bf3
• 3~db3
• 3~db3~d
• db3
• db3~d

f2 [block]

• 3
• 3~bf3
• 3~db3
• 3~db3~d
• db3
• db3~d

f3 [block]

• 3
• 3~bf3
• 3~db3
• 3~db3~d
• db3
• db3~d

d1 [block]

• 3
• 3~bf3
• 3~db3
• 3~db3~d
• db3
• db3~d

d2 [block]

• 3
• 3~bf3
• 3~db3
• 3~db3~d
• db3
• db3~d

d3 [block]

• 3
• 3~bf3
• 3~db3
• 3~db3~d
• db3
• db3~d

b1 [block]

• 3
• 3~bf3
• 3~db3
• 3~db3~d
• db3
• db3~d

b2 [block]

• 3
• 3~bf3
• 3~db3
• 3~db3~d
• db3
• db3~d

b3 [block]

• 3
• 3~bf3
• 3~db3
• 3~db3~d
• db3
• db3~d

Video soon.

 

[Immortal Reaver]

Tips against Deathstroke?

 

[Tiger Wong]

Buffed Overhead teleport beats Doomsday's Supernova. Supernova gets overpowered on the way up.

 

[xInfra Deadx]

Buffed Overhead teleport beats Doomsday's Supernova. Supernova gets overpowered on the way up.

LOL

 

[RYX]

any conclusions on the bane MU and how to play it from either perspective?

 

[TH3DISTURBED1]

I played an awesome Killer Frost online last week (all the matchups i get ) and I found that the match completely devolves into a 50/50 guessing game for us both. Ending combos in phase charge results in a few options:

Jump back in slide anticipation to punish it
Jump up and quick air dash over the opponent to reverse their wakeup
Jump up and downward air teleport once they anticipate you air dashing over
Jump over and dash back to the side you started on
Jump over and don't dash back to the side you started on

I found orb setups only worked when I threw the orb out and blocked low for the slide. If Killer Frost wakes up, the orb explodes and you get launched if you are not blocking. I was most uncomfortable when Killer Frost was outside footsie range but in slide range. I made one wrong read when he slid, and it turns into HER game. If you block the slide, there's options, but they all seem to be in KF favor.

D1 - Killer Frost can parry; MB for her game again.
B13, B1~low grab - This seemed to work once they are conditioned you are going for high moves. These can't be parried.

I felt the safest was just to B13, MB Orb to keep her from starting. I still find most people will not keep blocking after that everytime even though MMH has been out for a while now. I don't remember how much advantage you get, but I want to say its 25-30 frames of advantage.

I played 15 games, and I won only twice, so take this for what you will. The game I won, I kept KF on the ground and did the mix ups with all the jumps. Any insight on these?

 

[Tiger Wong]

After you block the slide, grab her and make them tech it. If she doesn't tech it, set up your orb work but watch out for her icicle.
After that, then if you block the slide, punish her with B13.

 

[Espio]

any conclusions on the bane MU and how to play it from either perspective?

There was some discussion on the previous page or so if you're interested, but that was pre-patch.

There's so much to learn especially with the new changes to Bane and the system mechanics. I'm withholding judgement till I figure things out, it could go either way.

 

[RYX]

There was some discussion on the previous page or so if you're interested, but that was pre-patch.

There's so much to learn especially with the new changes to Bane and the system mechanics. I'm withholding judgement till I figure things out, it could go either way.

Bane didn't really change that much lol. All that he got (that means anything) is his damage reduction on venom.

At the worst Bane can now take a little bit less damage. But I'm having a nightmare trying to catch an MMH who abuses air dashes and projectiles/orbs.

 

[Espio]

Bane didn't really change that much lol. All that he got (that means anything) is his damage reduction on venom.

At the worst Bane can now take a little bit less damage. But I'm having a nightmare trying to catch an MMH who abuses air dashes and projectiles/orbs.

Can't you anti-air grab him with Bane or something if he's just air dashing all over the place or scout it and venom uppercut?

He got more than just the damage reduction buff. All I'm saying is I'm not going to judge the match when the patch with all these changes hasn't even been out for a week yet plus I haven't gotten any recent Bane experience with Martian Manhunter post patch.

Like I said, there was some pre-patch discussion if you wanted to check it out.

 

[RYX]

Can't you anti-air grab him with Bane or something if he's just air dashing all over the place or scout it and venom uppercut?

He got more than just the damage reduction buff. All I'm saying is I'k not going to judge the match when the patch with all these changes hasn't even been out for a week yet.

Like I said, there was some pre-patch discussion if you wanted to check it out.

He really didn't get anything useful, since f.2.d.3 and MB uppercut are still punishable (MMH can d.1~MB grab both, can armor out of MB upper, back dash, d.2, whatever)

No, there's not much I can do when MMH is air dashing away from me When I can knock him down and not fuck up, he's pretty easy to contain IMO. wake-up teleport can blow you up if you're not careful but that's whatever lol

yeah I guess I'll have to go read the pre patch talk X:

 

[Espio]

He really didn't get anything useful, since f.2.d.3 and MB uppercut are still punishable (MMH can d.1~MB grab both, can armor out of MB upper, back dash, d.2, whatever)

No, there's not much I can do when MMH is air dashing away from me When I can knock him down and not fuck up, he's pretty easy to contain IMO. wake-up teleport can blow you up if you're not careful but that's whatever lol

yeah I guess I'll have to go read the pre patch talk X:

Most of the cast can punish the gap on block in venom uppercut I believe, but I meant using the move as an anti-air not as just throwing it out on block. Getting up versus Bane is tricky with him because he has no multi-hitting wake ups so it's a lot easier to oki him.

I was of the opinion post patch it was 5-5 as they both have their respective spheres of influence they seem to control really well, but I could be wrong.

 

[RYX]

Most of the cast can punish the gap on block in venom uppercut I believe, but I meant using the move as an anti-air not as just throwing it out on block. Getting up versus Bane is tricky with him because he has no multi-hitting wake ups so it's a lot easier to oki him.

I was of the opinion post patch it was 5-5 as they both have their respective spheres of influence they seem to control really well, but I could be wrong.

i probably need to train my reactions better then


I dunno how to feel about it really

On one hand I have so much trouble getting in with simple tactics like orbs (Joker's teeth and then some) and all his shenanigans on top of his good damage and set-ups. On the other when Bane knocks him down he's really victimized by Bane's armor, so wake-ups always have a huge risk to them depending on the Venom level.