Lord Raiden General Discussion Thread

[Mandolore1123]

I was happy with the idea of making Lightning Strike less negative on block.

But then I thought about it more, and started to get pissed off. Lightning should hurt, a LOT. But fuckin Mister Sandman with his low sand trap can snag you anywhere on the screen and possibly KB into 30%? From some stupid judo neck chop?

After considering this, I feel its entirely justifiable for Lightning Strike to be HELLA BUFFED:

-19 or less on block
OVERHEAD
Krushing Blow with the same conditions as Geras' sand trap

This would also inadvertently buff Raijin, since Raiden can do the low projectile while quick charged.

2 for the price of 1

Chill man. -19 is fine as I think it’s the same as sand trap. He doesn’t need a krushing blow. The brutality is cool enough. Not sure about making it overhead though. I’d like a damage buff though

 

[Mandolore1123]

I was happy with the idea of making Lightning Strike less negative on block.

But then I thought about it more, and started to get pissed off. Lightning should hurt, a LOT. But fuckin Mister Sandman with his low sand trap can snag you anywhere on the screen and possibly KB into 30%? From some stupid judo neck chop?

After considering this, I feel its entirely justifiable for Lightning Strike to be HELLA BUFFED:

-19 or less on block
OVERHEAD
Krushing Blow with the same conditions as Geras' sand trap

This would also inadvertently buff Raijin, since Raiden can do the low projectile while quick charged.

2 for the price of 1

Chill man. -19 is fine as I think it’s the same as sand trap. He doesn’t need a krushing blow. The brutality is cool enough. Not sure about making it overhead though. I’d like a damage buff though. He doesn’t need to be good like the top tiers. Keep him honest and versatile like he is now

 

[Mandolore1123]

I kind of like him like this. Sure he needs some help on the frames, but he’s not bad at all. He’s safe on lots of stuff too. His cancels revolve around the mindgame of yes or no and every option has a distinct counter play like most defensive options in this game. Cancelling into Far teleport is safest and from there the games begin. I always think Raiden, like any god, operates based on how mortals respect him. If they are conditioned to block and play slower then he has a much greater control on the neutral. The top tiers will probably get toned down, so no use really comparing with them.

 

[ogrimtitan]

I kind of like him like this. Sure he needs some help on the frames, but he’s not bad at all. He’s safe on lots of stuff too. His cancels revolve around the mindgame of yes or no and every option has a distinct counter play like most defensive options in this game. Cancelling into Far teleport is safest and from there the games begin. I always think Raiden, like any god, operates based on how mortals respect him. If they are conditioned to block and play slower then he has a much greater control on the neutral. The top tiers will probably get toned down, so no use really comparing with them.

I'd actually say Raiden's main issue is that he's NOT a character you have to respect. If he was, his teleport/superman cancel mixup game would actually work. But it's mostly pretty fraudulent, and the penalty for getting caught in it isn't that high either. Disrespecting him is the way you beat Raiden. The characters people know to respect right now all have tools that are legit scary: Geras's sand trap, Scorpion's teleport, Erron's boot, Jaqui's staggers, Sonya's mixups/rings, Baraka's damage, Cetrion's screen control, etc. What do you need to respect about Raiden? His damage is higher than average but not crazy, his mixups aren't real mixups because his frames suck, his KBs are just ok, and his zoning/screen control isn't worrisome because his projectiles are so slow on startup and recovery that you'll always get in even if you get hit a couple of times.

 

[Mandolore1123]

I'd actually say Raiden's main issue is that he's NOT a character you have to respect. If he was, his teleport/superman cancel mixup game would actually work. But it's mostly pretty fraudulent, and the penalty for getting caught in it isn't that high either. Disrespecting him is the way you beat Raiden. The characters people know to respect right now all have tools that are legit scary: Geras's sand trap, Scorpion's teleport, Erron's boot, Jaqui's staggers, Sonya's mixups/rings, Baraka's damage, Cetrion's screen control, etc. What do you need to respect about Raiden? His damage is higher than average but not crazy, his mixups aren't real mixups because his frames suck, his KBs are just ok, and his zoning/screen control isn't worrisome because his projectiles are so slow on startup and recovery that you'll always get in even if you get hit a couple of times.

True I suppose. But I rather he be Ryu and do everything well but not excellent instead of having an archetype like Jacqui who is rushdown or Cetrion who is zoning

 

[BuffRaiden]

This maybe controversial around this board, but while I think Raiden need's buffs storm cell being safe is way too strong. Leave the last hit a high. But give him better options. He would turn into Mr. d3 storm cell really fast. Paulo understood it was supposed to be high risk high reward.

 

[Mandolore1123]

This maybe controversial around this board, but while I think Raiden need's buffs storm cell being safe is way too strong. Leave the last hit a high. But give him better options. He would turn into Mr. d3 storm cell really fast. Paulo understood it was supposed to be high risk high reward.

Heck no, storm cell is fine as is. He’s perfect except if a bit unsafe. He takes work but playing him is so rewarding and fun. He is as complex as you want him to be and versatile to no end.

 

[kabelfritz]

Raiden's big problem is that he's both unsafe AND lacks dirt. In most games, if a character's pretty unsafe, they have a lot of dirt. Think of Akuma, and how he usually has a ton of tools and nasty offense, but he's about as durable as wet tissue and if you make the wrong call once or twice as him you're dead. On the other hand, characters that don't have much dirt tend to be pretty safe. This would be like Ryu usually plays, where his game plan isn't very tricky, but he doesn't take many risks to implement it. Raiden currently has the worst side of both those trade offs. In Thunderwave, it seems like he's supposed to play kind of dirty with the teleport mix ups and superman cancels, but they're not really that dirty and most halfway decent players won't fall for them for long. And in Raijin, it seems like he's supposed to play straightforward and safe, but he's just not that safe on any of his effective stuff. To make either variation effective, Thunderwave's teleport needs to be a lot more dangerous in terms of frame data, and Raijin's space control needs to be a lot safer.

Of course, for me, I'd prefer them to also plan his variations out better. There's no reason for teleport to be a 2-slot move. It's not for any other characters who have a decent teleport. Drop it to one slot and give him something else useful in Thunderwave, and put Jo Push in Raijin for combos.

disagree on everything. raiden is a gimmicky but brainy character and thats fine except for minor changes. also, regarding dirt: ever heard of d1~stormcell?

 

[kabelfritz]

I was happy with the idea of making Lightning Strike less negative on block.

But then I thought about it more, and started to get pissed off. Lightning should hurt, a LOT. But fuckin Mister Sandman with his low sand trap can snag you anywhere on the screen and possibly KB into 30%? From some stupid judo neck chop?

After considering this, I feel its entirely justifiable for Lightning Strike to be HELLA BUFFED:

-19 or less on block
OVERHEAD
Krushing Blow with the same conditions as Geras' sand trap

This would also inadvertently buff Raijin, since Raiden can do the low projectile while quick charged.

2 for the price of 1

raijin doesnt have lightning strike

 

[Swoops]

Raiden's big problem is that he's both unsafe AND lacks dirt.

No dirt? Have you ever been hit by a Raiden's B2 while he has a throw KB stored ? Basically a 33/33/33 and the only good option to get out of 30%+ without guessing is u3. His mix is very scary

Also, I've seen a couple people mention teleport not being worthy of two slots but am I the only one that thinks it's actually kind of stupid good ? Fastest teleport in the game at 30 frames and has a ton of options with amplify.

 

[kabelfritz]

raiden actually got nerfed ... auto correcting amp lightning was useful

 

[buyacushun]

Idk if it's cool to put this here. If it should be it's own thread just let me know. This is copy pasted from my posts in discord.

I'll just list some buffs and some mix of those I think would be good enough.

1. Put some pushback on F2. Right now it's worse than F4 in every way except hitstun. More pushback would open it up in that you use F2 to not end up right next to the opponent and can jail off of stray hits. Which would entice ducking which leads to F4. This concept is seen throughout the roster (Cassie F1, Jacqui and Frost B2, Sonya mix starts high, etc) but not for Raiden.
2. Change fly KB to something else. Maybe it KB after 3 ex fly, or if you're opponent is in the corner. Something where you'd actual get use out of it. Right now it's too situational.
3. maybe some more active frames on D4.
4. Make the hitbox on F1 better. An up angled High into Low is just awful in NRS games lol.
5. speed up Lightning Bolt a bit. Somewhere from 22-25 range. Safe from a bit more than midscreen. Make it into an actual long range poke. So his footsie range goes like BF1/BF3>F2/F4>F3/B2>D4. This one I'm unsure of exactly where to put because of teleport. Have to be careful with his long range game. Maybe speed it up more but add more recovery so you just duck and dash like deadshot in injustice 1. Maybe only buff it in Raijin. Like charging up changes this move.
6. make F3 reach further and expand the hitbox downward. I'd take slower startup based on how much that gets buffed. I think i prefer adding an overhead to F32 instead of pushback. Making the opponent have to remember to stand block and it's also pretty quick would help the stagger game more. Plus I think pushback should be elsewhere and I can just live with a further better hitting F3

For Raijin specific stuff. Same idea, just a list of buffs.

1. Put some pushback on DF2. Make it one of those moves where it's like -10 but the spacing just means you get to advance on him. Technically unsafe but it's "safe".
2. change discharge to positive on hit.
3. DB4 safe at the tip of it. Keeps the 5050 unsafe but gives you some spacing to play with.
4. maybe give more time on the buff.
5. Add some KB to raijin. Punish with discharge a few times. Catch an opponent stand blocking DB4. Would help the no combo damage difference.

For thunder wave the only thing I could think of is looking at DF2 speed or something. Everything else is covered in the base change.

 

[Raidenwins]

I am going to selfishly say that my main buff wish is for the last hit of Storm Cell to be a Mid. The reason is that I like canceling into a special on block for safe pressure. Kind of like in MKX, with Thunder God Raiden we could do F1, 2, B2 ~ DF2 (or even DB2 EX). Now that was some awesome block string pressure. Clearly I still miss MKX Raiden, in particular his held lightning strings. Other than being safe and good for meter building, they were soo Raiden and felt so good.

Plus it was so awesome to corner Scorpion and then do (EX) DB2 as he teleported behind Raiden and watch him get caught in the lightnings. The same magnificence can be achieved in MK11 if they made the last hit of Storm Cell mid.

 

[DDutchguy]

I am going to selfishly say that my main buff wish is for the last hit of Storm Cell to be a Mid. The reason is that I like canceling into a special on block for safe pressure. Kind of like in MKX, with Thunder God Raiden we could do F1, 2, B2 ~ DF2 (or even DB2 EX). Now that was some awesome block string pressure. Clearly I still miss MKX Raiden, in particular his held lightning strings. Other than being safe and good for meter building, they were soo Raiden and felt so good.

Plus it was so awesome to corner Scorpion and then do (EX) DB2 as he teleported behind Raiden and watch him get caught in the lightnings. The same magnificence can be achieved in MK11 if they made the last hit of Storm Cell mid.

I understand your argument from the perspective of fun and with what MKX Raiden was like.

However, the last hit of Storm Cell being a mid and thus becoming fully safe would be beyond broken.

 

[Swoops]

Idk if it's cool to put this here. If it should be it's own thread just let me know. This is copy pasted from my posts in discord.

I'll just list some buffs and some mix of those I think would be good enough.

1. Put some pushback on F2. Right now it's worse than F4 in every way except hitstun. More pushback would open it up in that you use F2 to not end up right next to the opponent and can jail off of stray hits. Which would entice ducking which leads to F4. This concept is seen throughout the roster (Cassie F1, Jacqui and Frost B2, Sonya mix starts high, etc) but not for Raiden.
2. Change fly KB to something else. Maybe it KB after 3 ex fly, or if you're opponent is in the corner. Something where you'd actual get use out of it. Right now it's too situational.
3. maybe some more active frames on D4.
4. Make the hitbox on F1 better. An up angled High into Low is just awful in NRS games lol.
5. speed up Lightning Bolt a bit. Somewhere from 22-25 range. Safe from a bit more than midscreen. Make it into an actual long range poke. So his footsie range goes like BF1/BF3>F2/F4>F3/B2>D4. This one I'm unsure of exactly where to put because of teleport. Have to be careful with his long range game. Maybe speed it up more but add more recovery so you just duck and dash like deadshot in injustice 1. Maybe only buff it in Raijin. Like charging up changes this move.
6. make F3 reach further and expand the hitbox downward. I'd take slower startup based on how much that gets buffed. I think i prefer adding an overhead to F32 instead of pushback. Making the opponent have to remember to stand block and it's also pretty quick would help the stagger game more. Plus I think pushback should be elsewhere and I can just live with a further better hitting F3

For Raijin specific stuff. Same idea, just a list of buffs.

1. Put some pushback on DF2. Make it one of those moves where it's like -10 but the spacing just means you get to advance on him. Technically unsafe but it's "safe".
2. change discharge to positive on hit.
3. DB4 safe at the tip of it. Keeps the 5050 unsafe but gives you some spacing to play with.
4. maybe give more time on the buff.
5. Add some KB to raijin. Punish with discharge a few times. Catch an opponent stand blocking DB4. Would help the no combo damage difference.

For thunder wave the only thing I could think of is looking at DF2 speed or something. Everything else is covered in the base change.

This is a pretty good list. I think F2 would be good at 0 or +1 given it's slow and a high.

I also would like F4 at more like 17f or 18f. One of the bigger problems I think he has is being a patient mid range character for most of the match but he's unable to punish a lot of unsafe stuff from like mid/halfscreen range that other characters can punish. Case in point Geras gets to do sand traps for free since it's -19. If he had that I would be okay with his projectiles being sub par.

Either that or you could keep lightning strike unsafe (albeit slightly less than it is) and make it the super fast check. Like 16 or 17 frames you can put out anywhere on the screen.

 

[MKF30]

I still have faith they'll buff Raiden in the future, I mean how many tourneys have we've seen him used seriously? Exactly. lol during Combo Breaker, watched one guy's named as "Best Raiden" use Geras the whole time. Real character loyalty there lol. I plan on using the hell out of Fujin once he hits, don't care where he is on the tier list like Raiden isn't remotely the best in the game but still fun to use none the less.

 

[Mandolore1123]

Idk if it's cool to put this here. If it should be it's own thread just let me know. This is copy pasted from my posts in discord.

I'll just list some buffs and some mix of those I think would be good enough.

1. Put some pushback on F2. Right now it's worse than F4 in every way except hitstun. More pushback would open it up in that you use F2 to not end up right next to the opponent and can jail off of stray hits. Which would entice ducking which leads to F4. This concept is seen throughout the roster (Cassie F1, Jacqui and Frost B2, Sonya mix starts high, etc) but not for Raiden.
2. Change fly KB to something else. Maybe it KB after 3 ex fly, or if you're opponent is in the corner. Something where you'd actual get use out of it. Right now it's too situational.
3. maybe some more active frames on D4.
4. Make the hitbox on F1 better. An up angled High into Low is just awful in NRS games lol.
5. speed up Lightning Bolt a bit. Somewhere from 22-25 range. Safe from a bit more than midscreen. Make it into an actual long range poke. So his footsie range goes like BF1/BF3>F2/F4>F3/B2>D4. This one I'm unsure of exactly where to put because of teleport. Have to be careful with his long range game. Maybe speed it up more but add more recovery so you just duck and dash like deadshot in injustice 1. Maybe only buff it in Raijin. Like charging up changes this move.
6. make F3 reach further and expand the hitbox downward. I'd take slower startup based on how much that gets buffed. I think i prefer adding an overhead to F32 instead of pushback. Making the opponent have to remember to stand block and it's also pretty quick would help the stagger game more. Plus I think pushback should be elsewhere and I can just live with a further better hitting F3

For Raijin specific stuff. Same idea, just a list of buffs.

1. Put some pushback on DF2. Make it one of those moves where it's like -10 but the spacing just means you get to advance on him. Technically unsafe but it's "safe".
2. change discharge to positive on hit.
3. DB4 safe at the tip of it. Keeps the 5050 unsafe but gives you some spacing to play with.
4. maybe give more time on the buff.
5. Add some KB to raijin. Punish with discharge a few times. Catch an opponent stand blocking DB4. Would help the no combo damage difference.

For thunder wave the only thing I could think of is looking at DF2 speed or something. Everything else is covered in the base change.

Not sure if I’d change F3 beyond making it less minus. It’s a great fast mid and raiden’s main stagger tool. Making it slower would hurt that. He has F11 for between F4 and B1/F3 range

 

[buyacushun]

This is a pretty good list. I think F2 would be good at 0 or +1 given it's slow and a high.

I also would like F4 at more like 17f or 18f. One of the bigger problems I think he has is being a patient mid range character for most of the match but he's unable to punish a lot of unsafe stuff from like mid/halfscreen range that other characters can punish. Case in point Geras gets to do sand traps for free since it's -19. If he had that I would be okay with his projectiles being sub par.

Either that or you could keep lightning strike unsafe (albeit slightly less than it is) and make it the super fast check. Like 16 or 17 frames you can put out anywhere on the screen.

Yeah I just don't like the place F2 is in right now. Feels like it's missing something for that high or Mid meta.

Not sure if I’d change F3 beyond making it less minus. It’s a great fast mid and raiden’s main stagger tool. Making it slower would hurt that. He has F11 for between F4 and B1/F3 range

I think you're overestimating the range I'm talking about. It'd be barely noticeable further but it'd more reliable at the distance it reaches. If they buffed it to the point they increased the start up 1 or 2 frames you'd still be able to use it the same way for staggers and such.

And F11 isn't designed to be a proper poke in this game. NRS moves being high and angled upwards either need to be a crazy AA like dvorah has or they just whiff on anything that isn't standing straight up. I should have put in the list some kind of hitbox buff or animation change to F11.

 

[Mandolore1123]

Yeah I just don't like the place F2 is in right now. Feels like it's missing something for that high or Mid meta.


I think you're overestimating the range I'm talking about. It'd be barely noticeable further but it'd more reliable at the distance it reaches. If they buffed it to the point they increased the start up 1 or 2 frames you'd still be able to use it the same way for staggers and such.

And F11 isn't designed to be a proper poke in this game. NRS moves being high and angled upwards either need to be a crazy AA like dvorah has or they just whiff on anything that isn't standing straight up. I should have put in the list some kind of hitbox buff or animation change to F11.

I think making the hit box of F11 actually consistent with the longer staffs should do the trick. I just want better frames tbh. Not sure about F3 being longer range. I mainly use it after a poke to check people or as a mediocre stagger. I feel making it slower would hurt it in the sense that you can interchange B1 and F3 during staggers to throw people off because they start up the same and have the same range. And making it slower will hurt it’s ability to stagger given that it’s -6 so the window of opportunity is larger. Oh well. We’ll see what NRS does

 

[buyacushun]

I think making the hit box of F11 actually consistent with the longer staffs should do the trick. I just want better frames tbh. Not sure about F3 being longer range. I mainly use it after a poke to check people or as a mediocre stagger. I feel making it slower would hurt it in the sense that you can interchange B1 and F3 during staggers to throw people off because they start up the same and have the same range. And making it slower will hurt it’s ability to stagger given that it’s -6 so the window of opportunity is larger. Oh well. We’ll see what NRS does

I've found situations where F3 looks like it should whiff punish things like down pokes and it's missing. Then there's no other button to press. In my head it'd be a slight buff to these fringe situations so he can reliably attack from that range.

 

[Paul the Octopus]

Anyone know how big the gap is between b31? It can't be interrupted with pokes, correct? (Only fatal blow and flawless block reversals)

 

[Mandolore1123]

I've found situations where F3 looks like it should whiff punish things like down pokes and it's missing. Then there's no other button to press. In my head it'd be a slight buff to these fringe situations so he can reliably attack from that range.

This I can get behind. It’s not a buff as much as a fix to the hit box though. Like F11...

 

[BRAZILIAN SHEEP]

Guys, how can I reset the opponent on hit using discharge in order to restand them? I can't do it.

 

[The ice hammer]

Yeah I just don't like the place F2 is in right now. Feels like it's missing something for that high or Mid meta.


I think you're overestimating the range I'm talking about. It'd be barely noticeable further but it'd more reliable at the distance it reaches. If they buffed it to the point they increased the start up 1 or 2 frames you'd still be able to use it the same way for staggers and such.

And F11 isn't designed to be a proper poke in this game. NRS moves being high and angled upwards either need to be a crazy AA like dvorah has or they just whiff on anything that isn't standing straight up. I should have put in the list some kind of hitbox buff or animation change to F11.

I don’t know how others are using f2, but I use it pretty successfully as a gap closer when I need to go in for damage. It recovers so so fast on whiff it’s pretty crazy. Almost as fast as a d1. I space it so the f2 actually won’t hit, but right next to the opponent. They think they can punish with their punisher button when they see raiden whiffs the f2. But no my boy. The 121 string comes so fast after the whiff f2 it eats their meaty 90% of the time. That’s how I’ve been getting KB 121 most games. And plus, it’s only -3 on block.

 

[kabelfritz]

I don’t know how others are using f2, but I use it pretty successfully as a gap closer when I need to go in for damage. It recovers so so fast on whiff it’s pretty crazy. Almost as fast as a d1. I space it so the f2 actually won’t hit, but right next to the opponent. They think they can punish with their punisher button when they see raiden whiffs the f2. But no my boy. The 121 string comes so fast after the whiff f2 it eats their meaty 90% of the time. That’s how I’ve been getting KB 121 most games. And plus, it’s only -3 on block.

you can also f2~bf3 and cancel on block or let go on hit, the long stagger allows to connect for a combo on reaction.