Lord Raiden General Discussion Thread

[Marlow]

This discussion has now re-instated my interest with MK11. Had to re-install it last night just so I can start labbing a few things. Thought I was out and on to Virtua Fighter, now I'm pulled back in.

 

[Marlow]

I guess my thinking is if I'm going to use Jo Push, and try and play at a further back range, I'd rather pair Jo Push with something like Rolling Thunder. That way after I land the B&B of Push into F4-Summon Lightning as an ender, I get the cloud out for free for some DOT, and then I can fall back and harass at the safe Jo Push range. If they want to walk forward then they're walking into the cloud, they're being forced to block Jo Push, or they're sitting and just taking the DOT. If they try and jump over the cloud they're likely getting clipped by Jo Push, or just sucked in by a Summon Lightning anti air.

Another option could be to pair Jo Push with Lightning Storm. That way if you're at Jo Push range you can also harass with the Lightning Storm projectile, which is also slightly safer at a max range, and you'd have a solid chip option and wakeup pressure with Lighting Storm Amp Overhead.

 

[Mandolore1123]

That way if you're at Jo Push range you can also harass with the Lightning Storm projectile, which is also slightly safer at a max range

If by slightly safer you mean -25 on block and 0 on hit then...sure...

I honestly see no reason to ever use Jo push or lightning rod but I main float so who am I to say.

 

[Marlow]

If by slightly safer you mean -25 on block and 0 on hit then...sure...

I honestly see no reason to ever use Jo push or lightning rod but I main float so who am I to say.

At a further back range it's safer is all I was saying. You're still negative at max range but it's difficult for most characters to punish.

I prefer Raijin, just because I don't have the execution right now for float. I've messed around with Quick Charge, Electric Current, and Super Bolt just because I like how Super Bolt looks and it has a possible KB that I can land on bad players who hit buttons on wakeup sometimes. Plus Super Bolt has an easy Brutality.

 

[Mandolore1123]

At a further back range it's safer is all I was saying. You're still negative at max range but it's difficult for most characters to punish.

I prefer Raijin, just because I don't have the execution right now for float. I've messed around with Quick Charge, Electric Current, and Super Bolt just because I like how Super Bolt looks and it has a possible KB that I can land on bad players who hit buttons on wakeup sometimes. Plus Super Bolt has an easy Brutality.

It's fine. I've long decided not to care if NRS was going to change anything. Everyone can just play what they like, which is the beauty of having customs in the first place.

 

[Marinjuana]

It's easier to get the rod out than I'm making it out to be, yes. My problem though is that even if you get amped rod out, it's still only out for 3 seconds which isn't a ton of time, meaning you need to commit to what you're doing pretty quick, whether it's a jump in, projectile, or long normal. You're also basically spending a bar for a bit of screen control and maybe a bit of pressure with some potential damage if the opponent screws up. But most of the time if the opponent simply blocks and stays cool, all you'll get is a little bit of chip. It's not nothing, but it doesn't seem worth a bar to me. Maybe in some niche situations it has it's uses, but overall it's still one of his weaker moves.

If the opponent is blocking your pressure just because you threw out a amp special, that's a win. I'm not trying to convince anyone but it's a bit tiring seeing people downplay the move

 

[UnshavenRaven]

It's fine. I've long decided not to care if NRS was going to change anything. Everyone can just play what they like, which is the beauty of having customs in the first place.

The simple and short answer to "why Jo Push?" I'll go over the pros and cons quickly.

Jo Push Pros:

1. Huge range (reaches further back than Raiden's F1, which already had excellent range). This range is especially useful vs advancing Kotals, Jade's long staff strikes, and Joker's own staff pressure, Spawn's chains, etc.
2. Jo Push flies like a projectile, but hits as "physical" damage (smashes right through Jade's Glow, Nightwolfs parry, Liu Kang's, etc.
3. Works great at catching jumping forward attackers, and forces them to eat a nice combo punish.
4. If you're stuck in the corner, you can amplify it and quickly turn the tides on an opponent, now they're in the corner and you have superior position.

Jo Push Cons:

1. Is hugely punishable at the close to close-mid range (both on regular and amplify).
2. Doesn't do as high "raw" damage as Raijin's or Thunder Wave's launcher.
3. Has a slow windup to throw out.
4. If you have your opponent in the corner (not fully, but at almost "near-corner" level), you might inadvertently switch positions with your opponent on amp (only happens on a specific spacing though, it's usually not an issue for me).

As always my friend, you're welcome to shoot me an invite for some friendly matches, or possible match scenarios to lab up if you wanna test your variation vs a Jo Push related build.

 

[UnshavenRaven]

This discussion has now re-instated my interest with MK11. Had to re-install it last night just so I can start labbing a few things. Thought I was out and on to Virtua Fighter, now I'm pulled back in.

I really love this response. A great discussion on MK11 matchups/variations that inspires people to play the game again is always a good thing in my book! Virtua Fighter 5 is awesome too by the way. As to your other post of Raiden possible customs, those are definitely really cool too. That's the magic of MK's customs man; experiment with different builds, then master them, and bring the best out of them! Makes the MK community stronger as a whole!

#RaidenGang #TruthAndLight

 

[Mandolore1123]

The simple and short answer to "why Jo Push?" I'll go over the pros and cons quickly.

Jo Push Pros:

1. Huge range (reaches further back than Raiden's F1, which already had excellent range). This range is especially useful vs advancing Kotals, Jade's long staff strikes, and Joker's own staff pressure, Spawn's chains, etc.
2. Jo Push flies like a projectile, but hits as "physical" damage (smashes right through Jade's Glow, Nightwolfs parry, Liu Kang's, etc.
3. Works great at catching jumping forward attackers, and forces them to eat a nice combo punish.
4. If you're stuck in the corner, you can amplify it and quickly turn the tides on an opponent, now they're in the corner and you have superior position.

Jo Push Cons:

1. Is hugely punishable at the close to close-mid range (both on regular and amplify).
2. Doesn't do as high "raw" damage as Raijin's or Thunder Wave's launcher.
3. Has a slow windup to throw out.
4. If you have your opponent in the corner (not fully, but at almost "near-corner" level), you might inadvertently switch positions with your opponent on amp (only happens on a specific spacing though, it's usually not an issue for me).

As always my friend, you're welcome to shoot me an invite for some friendly matches, or possible match scenarios to lab up if you wanna test your variation vs a Jo Push related build.

The problem with those pros is that Raiden has no problem dealing with those issues at that range. Against those advancing buttons you can’t reactively throw out Jo Push because it’s so slow, so if you’re going to throw something out why not throw something that’s faster with slightly less range (F1), or just walk back with Raiden’s amazing back walk and whiff punish? Same thing with jumps, if they are trying to jump on Raiden why rely on a slow special when you can just B1 trip guard and get a higher damage punish? Same with the side switch issue. To me jo push as a move is invalidated by Raiden having strong enough base tools to maintain such advantages and having cheaper and more effective custom moves that will give more reward but with the same weakness, AND doesn’t replace electric fly.

Again, I don’t really care if people pick that move. I’m happy there’s still someone who likes the variation enough to play it despite all its flaws. I’m not really a setup player either so I wouldn’t have dabbled in this variation if it was any good anyway. I’m just personally not convinced to use Jo Push when I can use other moves that are just better.

I don’t mind playing you if you’re West Coast or something. I’m from Hong Kong and I’m usually only free on Saturday afternoons. If you want to find me for games just shoot me a DM on PSN or something.

 

[xRantex]

I really love this response. A great discussion on MK11 matchups/variations that inspires people to play the game again is always a good thing in my book! Virtua Fighter 5 is awesome too by the way. As to your other post of Raiden possible customs, those are definitely really cool too. That's the magic of MK's customs man; experiment with different builds, then master them, and bring the best out of them! Makes the MK community stronger as a whole!

#RaidenGang #TruthAndLight

I would like to play you as well and test some builds out.

 

[Mandolore1123]

If the opponent is blocking your pressure just because you threw out a amp special, that's a win. I'm not trying to convince anyone but it's a bit tiring seeing people downplay the move

A friend of mine from the Raiden Discord used Rod//Float//storm cell for a while. It’s…workable but again, there aren’t a lot of good setups and the one that does cover all wakeup options only works on 4 characters. You do get monstrous chip off your projectiles but they are so slow that you can’t really get more than one out at full screen and you’re fully interruptible if you’re doing it up close.

 

[UnshavenRaven]

The problem with those pros is that Raiden has no problem dealing with those issues at that range. Against those advancing buttons you can’t reactively throw out Jo Push because it’s so slow, so if you’re going to throw something out why not throw something that’s faster with slightly less range (F1), or just walk back with Raiden’s amazing back walk and whiff punish? Same thing with jumps, if they are trying to jump on Raiden why rely on a slow special when you can just B1 trip guard and get a higher damage punish? Same with the side switch issue. To me jo push as a move is invalidated by Raiden having strong enough base tools to maintain such advantages and having cheaper and more effective custom moves that will give more reward but with the same weakness, AND doesn’t replace electric fly.

Again, I don’t really care if people pick that move. I’m happy there’s still someone who likes the variation enough to play it despite all its flaws. I’m not really a setup player either so I wouldn’t have dabbled in this variation if it was any good anyway. I’m just personally not convinced to use Jo Push when I can use other moves that are just better.

I don’t mind playing you if you’re West Coast or something. I’m from Hong Kong and I’m usually only free on Saturday afternoons. If you want to find me for games just shoot me a DM on PSN or something.

To you and also @xRantex , yeah that'd definitely be cool to run some matches! Would be interesting to check out your customs too. Just gotta get both of your PSN tags (mine is "UnshavenOne").

 

[xRantex]

To you and also @xRantex , yeah that'd definitely be cool to run some matches! Would be interesting to check out your customs too. Just gotta get both of your PSN tags (mine is "UnshavenOne").

I'm on Xbox so we could cross play? Forever Infern0 (the number 0)

 

[Mandolore1123]

To you and also @xRantex , yeah that'd definitely be cool to run some matches! Would be interesting to check out your customs too. Just gotta get both of your PSN tags (mine is "UnshavenOne").

Mandolore1123

 

[Marlow]

I'm Redwin6411 on PSN, and Marlow0822 on Xbox. I wouldn't mind playing some matches with people sometime just so I could actually get decent at the game, although it's hard for me to find time to play these days. I'm US Central time, and normally evenings after 8:00 work best.

 

[Marlow]

What's the best or most damaging launcher/ender to use with 243 mid-screen? Can you get anything off of 243 into Storm Cell, Electric Current, or Jo Push? Or are the options when mid screen simply doing an ender like Electric Fly, Super Bolt, or Summon Lightning?

 

[Mandolore1123]

What's the best or most damaging launcher/ender to use with 243 mid-screen? Can you get anything off of 243 into Storm Cell, Electric Current, or Jo Push? Or are the options when mid screen simply doing an ender like Electric Fly, Super Bolt, or Summon Lightning?

Storm cell and electric current don't work off 243 mid-screen. Idk about super bolt or Jo push but fly and summon lightning are your best bets generally

 

[Marlow]

Super Bolt does less damage than fly, the only solid part is that on amp it gives good corner carry, solid knockdown, and leaves Raiden at a range and advantage where he can do something like a full charged Super Bolt against the opponents wakeup. Not guaranteed but if the opponent messes up it can lead to a combo or even a KB.

My favorite strings of Raiden are his F32 and 243, so I'm just double checking that I'm making my Raiden build accordingly. Just searching for the special moves that would have the most synergy with those two strings.

 

[Cobainevermind87]

My favorite strings of Raiden are his F32 and 243, so I'm just double checking that I'm making my Raiden build accordingly. Just searching for the special moves that would have the most synergy with those two strings.

I only run with TW Raiden, but I ran into someone that had his low-hitting special equipped, I forget what it's called. Can launch and convert in the corner. Anyways it turned every f3 into a 50/50 and it gave me a pretty tough time. It also turns his b1 into a 50/50 as b14 hits mid to overhead.

243 is great. I always just dial in the superman (provided I have defensive meter) and let it rock if the low hits, cancel it if they block the low and go into f2 (for plus frames) or more f3/b1 pressure.

But yeah I really like that low special and the mixups it creates. I've been meaning to mess around with it in the lab, haven't had time.

 

[Marlow]

I only run with TW Raiden, but I ran into someone that had his low-hitting special equipped, I forget what it's called. Can launch and convert in the corner. Anyways it turned every f3 into a 50/50 and it gave me a pretty tough time. It also turns his b1 into a 50/50 as b14 hits mid to overhead.

243 is great. I always just dial in the superman (provided I have defensive meter) and let it rock if the low hits, cancel it if they block the low and go into f2 (for plus frames) or more f3/b1 pressure.

But yeah I really like that low special and the mixups it creates. I've been meaning to mess around with it in the lab, haven't had time.

That's his electric current. DB4 slot.

 

[UnshavenRaven]

What's the best or most damaging launcher/ender to use with 243 mid-screen? Can you get anything off of 243 into Storm Cell, Electric Current, or Jo Push? Or are the options when mid screen simply doing an ender like Electric Fly, Super Bolt, or Summon Lightning?

When you're midscreen, if you want to chain together a combo with 2, 4, 3... usually the best option is to simply dial in 2, 4 only then use your launcher (that way you still get the low kick benefit, without kicking your enemy too far back with the last hit.

In regards to Jo Push and 243, technically you CAN land a Jo Push after hitting the full 243 (the far reach hits them and gives great corner carry)... BUT, the hit is not consistent among the entire roster, so with some characters it'll whiff (even if it does whiff though, you're safe, as the enemy will be flying thru the air far back). Just don't amplify it, because the 2nd hit will not connect.

A nice little setup I like to do goes like this:

Hit the 243, Jo Push, they go flying into the corner, then as they're getting up, immediately fire out DF2 amped on them.

 

[Mandolore1123]

Anyways it turned every f3 into a 50/50 and it gave me a pretty tough time. It also turns his b1 into a 50/50 as b14 hits mid to overhead

Not 50/50s, fuzzy overhead then low. F32 is 12f and EC is 20+f, same with B14. The only real mix Raiden has is B2/B3 and strike/throw

 

[Marlow]

Just a follow up to yesterday:

243~Super Bolt Amp does 237
243~Electric Fly Amp does 240
243~Summon Lightning Amp does 244
243~Jo Push whiffs, at least on Jaqui.


Bolt and Fly obviously both have corner carry. Bolt leaves Raiden +48, Fly leaves Raiden +14, and Summon Lightning leaves Raiden +29. Bolt also leaves Raiden at a range where he can do another max charge bolt, and if it hits he can do a D1~Summon Lightning in the corner, or if it hits as a punish or kounter it triggers a KB.

 

[Marlow]

@xRantex

I'm guessing your comment about Scorpion's teleport cancel got moved or deleted from the NRS Support thread, they're likely just trying to keep that thread on topic instead of turning into a Raiden discussion thread.

Anyways, just wanted to weigh in quickly on that. I'm not sure your point about Scorpion's teleport launcher being safe holds up. Yes, he can cancel it, but he has to have an ability equipped for that which takes two slots, it costs a bar of defensive meter, and he can't hit confirm the teleport itself, he'd need to hit confirm the string. Scorpion's Teleport itself is still massively unsafe as it's a high with a small gap before the amp, and if the amp is blocked he's -14. So it's still very much in line with the idea of launchers being unsafe.

 

[xRantex]

@xRantex

I'm guessing your comment about Scorpion's teleport cancel got moved or deleted from the NRS Support thread, they're likely just trying to keep that thread on topic instead of turning into a Raiden discussion thread.

Anyways, just wanted to weigh in quickly on that. I'm not sure your point about Scorpion's teleport launcher being safe holds up. Yes, he can cancel it, but he has to have an ability equipped for that which takes two slots, it costs a bar of defensive meter, and he can't hit confirm the teleport itself, he'd need to hit confirm the string. Scorpion's Teleport itself is still massively unsafe as it's a high with a small gap before the amp, and if the amp is blocked he's -14. So it's still very much in line with the idea of launchers being unsafe.

My point was he has a launcher that he can cancel out of if he can't hit confirm it.