Lord Raiden General Discussion Thread

[fluffybunbunkittens]

If Raiden is playing with Lightning Rod equipped against Sheeva, is it possible to react to her stomp attempts with amped Close Rod?

You can react and get the staff out in time... all so you can pay meter for the privilege of taking 50 dmg, while Sheeva takes 40 dmg, and you get knockdowned while Sheeva stays standing, and Sheeva recovers faster than you for some oki pressure. Or another stomp.

 

[Marlow]

You can react and get the staff out in time... all so you can pay meter for the privilege of taking 50 dmg, while Sheeva takes 40 dmg, and you get knockdowned while Sheeva stays standing, and Sheeva recovers faster than you for some oki pressure. Or another stomp.

Yeah, I figured the only issue would be if NRS considered it a Trade. So dumb.

 

[Mandolore1123]

If Raiden is playing with Lightning Rod equipped against Sheeva, is it possible to react to her stomp attempts with amped Close Rod?

To be fair you're probably better off just doing storm cell or teleporting or doing a superman. Most online Sheeva's won't know the intricacies of varying the timing enough to beat those 3 options so you can run TW and try to get a full combo at least in those situations

 

[Marinjuana]

Lord Raiden community! What are the optimals for damage and unbreakable damage off of B12~Storm Cell and F3~Storm Cell?

 

[xRantex]

B12, sc, F2, D2 sonic fox was doing this in his Raiden videos.

 

[Mandolore1123]

Lord Raiden community! What are the optimals for damage and unbreakable damage off of B12~Storm Cell and F3~Storm Cell?

Unbreakable optimal: starter (except F4, B31)~storm cell AMP, F2, D2
Optimal damage: Starter~storm cell AMP, JI2, F2, D2
teleport oki: starter~storm cell AMP, JI2, F2, 121
corner optimal damage (but switches sides): starter~storm cell AMP, back dash, D2, B12 1+3/F32 (I actually don't remember what damage this does)
regular corner optimal: starter~storm cell AMP, JI3, 243~fly/storm cell

 

[Marlow]

Guys I don't think they're going to fix Lightning Rod.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

Guys I don't think they're going to fix Lightning Rod.

Didn't you hear? Some abilities are in the game 'just for fun'. Not working = fun!

 

[Mandolore1123]

Sadness...I guess it's really over. Welp it's been a great few years learning and maining Raiden with you guys. Many thanks for all the good bants

 

[Szkarad]

Yeah. A shame. Raiden was on the verge of being actually good. Just a couple of small buffs/frame adjustments would be enough

 

[UnshavenRaven]

I see a lot of people on here still misunderstand how to properly use Jo Push and Lightning Rod (Truth and Light). I went ahead and just finished uploading a full, in-depth guide on using this exact toolset. All topics are covered... using Jo Push to its max reach, lightning rod usage, using the bubble for offense and defense, anti airs, countering teleporters, etc.

Feel free to leave any questions on the comments in the video link, or here on forum if you prefer. Peace!

#RaidenGang #TruthAndLight

 

[NeroOps]

I see a lot of people on here still misunderstand how to properly use Jo Push and Lightning Rod (Truth and Light). I went ahead and just finished uploading a full, in-depth guide on using this exact toolset. All topics are covered... using Jo Push to its max reach, lightning rod usage, using the bubble for offense and defense, anti airs, countering teleporters, etc.

Feel free to leave any questions on the comments in the video link, or here on forum if you prefer. Peace!

#RaidenGang #TruthAndLight

Great video even though you missed some points within the guide but i doubt anyone really cares because the variation isn't as easy to use or good enough to them compared to his thunder wave variation.

 

[Marlow]

I see a lot of people on here still misunderstand how to properly use Jo Push and Lightning Rod (Truth and Light). I went ahead and just finished uploading a full, in-depth guide on using this exact toolset. All topics are covered... using Jo Push to its max reach, lightning rod usage, using the bubble for offense and defense, anti airs, countering teleporters, etc.

Feel free to leave any questions on the comments in the video link, or here on forum if you prefer. Peace!

#RaidenGang #TruthAndLight

Cool video, although I still think Truth & Light is trash. I want it to be good, but it's just not. Few observations/thoughts:

Jo Push costs two slots, takes away a great corner carry and damage move in Electric Fly, and instead you're left with the lowest damage launcher that's punishable and 20f startup. It does have solid range, but it's -25 on block. If you set the CPU to do a reversal projectile or an advancing special like Glow Kick or Dash Punch I'm sure a lot will punish Jo Push, even at Max Range.

As far as anti airs go, why bother using Jo Push when you have Summon Lightning? Trying to use Jo Push as an anti-air means making a heavy read, and if you read correctly with Jo Push you'd likely have read correctly with Summon Lighting or some of your other options anyways. It also relies on the opponent being totally braindead and just jumping to jump.

The Amp for Jo Push is 16f and can be jabbed out of, I don't think it's much of a guessing game. Again it's basically relying on the opponent to be unfamiliar and make mistakes.

Lightning Rod: Lightning Rod is about 20f startup and 36f recovery. So if you're throwing that thing out in neutral your opponent now has a juicy 50f window to throw out a projectile or some kind of fast advancing move and punish. Even on knockdown the opponent can punish with a projectile or teleport before the rod is out.

Amped rod costs a bar, but doesn't actually give much pressure. The rod stays out such a short time that Raiden needs to commit to something quickly, whether it's a jump in, F2/F4, or a projectile. Most of the time the opponent can simply back up to the edge of the bubble and just react. Which means most of the time you're spending a bar for a small bit of chip, with the reward being 26-28% damage. Solid damage, but you can easily get more damage using other variations.

Same issue using the rod defensively. It's great that it eats up space and makes it difficult for the opponent to approach, but again you're spending a bar and getting little out of it. It's a pretty resource heavy way to play.

Even in the matches you showcased at the end, there wasn't a lot that I saw that was actually unique to playing as T&L. You capitalized on your opponents mistakes, but you could have done the exact same thing with the other variations.

 

[Marlow]

All that above being said, I think it's great that people can play Raiden however they like. Whatever combo of moves you want to do, custom variations makes that possible. I think if I used Jo Push, the only variation I'd use it with is Rolling Thunder. Rolling Thunder means Raiden gets a launcher, keeps Summon Lightning, and can throw out a DOT move over the ground to try and bait the opponent into jumping.

If I was going to use Lightning Rod, I'd pair it with something like Teleport to give Raiden more options after the amped bubble is up, or pair it with something like Storm Cell and Super Bolt. That way you still keep a solid launcher, and you can do some corner setups. Amped Super Bolt gives Raiden the most advantage on knockdown so it'd be safest to get Rod out after a knockdown, and there's some nice Amped Rod combos that a raw Super Bolt can help start, especially in the corner.

 

[Mandolore1123]

Cool video, although I still think Truth & Light is trash. I want it to be good, but it's just not. Few observations/thoughts:

Jo Push costs two slots, takes away a great corner carry and damage move in Electric Fly, and instead you're left with the lowest damage launcher that's punishable and 20f startup. It does have solid range, but it's -25 on block. If you set the CPU to do a reversal projectile or an advancing special like Glow Kick or Dash Punch I'm sure a lot will punish Jo Push, even at Max Range.

As far as anti airs go, why bother using Jo Push when you have Summon Lightning? Trying to use Jo Push as an anti-air means making a heavy read, and if you read correctly with Jo Push you'd likely have read correctly with Summon Lighting or some of your other options anyways. It also relies on the opponent being totally braindead and just jumping to jump.

The Amp for Jo Push is 16f and can be jabbed out of, I don't think it's much of a guessing game. Again it's basically relying on the opponent to be unfamiliar and make mistakes.

Lightning Rod: Lightning Rod is about 20f startup and 36f recovery. So if you're throwing that thing out in neutral your opponent now has a juicy 50f window to throw out a projectile or some kind of fast advancing move and punish. Even on knockdown the opponent can punish with a projectile or teleport before the rod is out.

Amped rod costs a bar, but doesn't actually give much pressure. The rod stays out such a short time that Raiden needs to commit to something quickly, whether it's a jump in, F2/F4, or a projectile. Most of the time the opponent can simply back up to the edge of the bubble and just react. Which means most of the time you're spending a bar for a small bit of chip, with the reward being 26-28% damage. Solid damage, but you can easily get more damage using other variations.

Same issue using the rod defensively. It's great that it eats up space and makes it difficult for the opponent to approach, but again you're spending a bar and getting little out of it. It's a pretty resource heavy way to play.

Even in the matches you showcased at the end, there wasn't a lot that I saw that was actually unique to playing as T&L. You capitalized on your opponents mistakes, but you could have done the exact same thing with the other variations.

I'll just add that with customs you have even less of a reason to use Jo Push and Rod in the same load out because Rod will prevent Raiden from using both F1 (one of his best normals)and Jo Push (his only launcher). There ARE indeed some guaranteed setups with the Rod alone BUT they only work on 4 characters out of the entire roster so make of that what you will I guess.

 

[xRantex]

I used a load out of Jo push and storm cell before. I feel that off of F11 max range Jo push was convenient to use. D1, storm cell shenanigans and Jo push for a mid range launcher. This load out is character specific though and I feel that a lot of Raiden load outs only work well on certain characters. Thunder wave is the most well rounded however other builds help him in certain match ups.

 

[UnshavenRaven]

Cool video, although I still think Truth & Light is trash. I want it to be good, but it's just not. Few observations/thoughts:

Jo Push costs two slots, takes away a great corner carry and damage move in Electric Fly, and instead you're left with the lowest damage launcher that's punishable and 20f startup. It does have solid range, but it's -25 on block. If you set the CPU to do a reversal projectile or an advancing special like Glow Kick or Dash Punch I'm sure a lot will punish Jo Push, even at Max Range.

As far as anti airs go, why bother using Jo Push when you have Summon Lightning? Trying to use Jo Push as an anti-air means making a heavy read, and if you read correctly with Jo Push you'd likely have read correctly with Summon Lighting or some of your other options anyways. It also relies on the opponent being totally braindead and just jumping to jump.

The Amp for Jo Push is 16f and can be jabbed out of, I don't think it's much of a guessing game. Again it's basically relying on the opponent to be unfamiliar and make mistakes.

Lightning Rod: Lightning Rod is about 20f startup and 36f recovery. So if you're throwing that thing out in neutral your opponent now has a juicy 50f window to throw out a projectile or some kind of fast advancing move and punish. Even on knockdown the opponent can punish with a projectile or teleport before the rod is out.

Amped rod costs a bar, but doesn't actually give much pressure. The rod stays out such a short time that Raiden needs to commit to something quickly, whether it's a jump in, F2/F4, or a projectile. Most of the time the opponent can simply back up to the edge of the bubble and just react. Which means most of the time you're spending a bar for a small bit of chip, with the reward being 26-28% damage. Solid damage, but you can easily get more damage using other variations.

Same issue using the rod defensively. It's great that it eats up space and makes it difficult for the opponent to approach, but again you're spending a bar and getting little out of it. It's a pretty resource heavy way to play.

Even in the matches you showcased at the end, there wasn't a lot that I saw that was actually unique to playing as T&L. You capitalized on your opponents mistakes, but you could have done the exact same thing with the other variations.

I appreciate the feedback. But some of your claims here are a little off and I feel you're being a bit closed minded. Lightning Rod has plenty of usage, and great chip damage. The bubble gives you advantage in stopping your opponent's movement; that in itself is huge; of course they can throw projectiles, but you can react to that and punish accordingly too.

When it comes to Jo Push not being better than Superman Fly, I respectfully disagree. Both moves are highly punishable, but Jo Push gives you safety at a distance (only certain super fast characters can truly do a big punish, and that's ONLY if they read it perfectly). Jo Push is also very "tall" and gives the added bonus of often catching jump heavy Kabals and Jades. Superman Fly on the other hand is full combo punishable every time on block. In regards to the "Jo Push getting jabbed out of on Amp"... that's not entirely accurate. This only applies if you're at a very specific position and distance when the Jo gets thrown at you. It's very inconsistent, and in the heat of a match you're taking a big gamble doing this, and even then, you're not gonna know exactly when I'm throwing regular or amped unless you have godly reads.

Not trying to claim I'm the best or anything, but I've beat plenty of great Thunder Wave and Raijin players with this variation. Making the Rod viable depends entirely on your skill and spacing. In the middle of a match knowing when and where to place it makes all the difference in the world. One of the MK youtubers that does a lot of "MK tech" related videos (Jolfvaka), recently had a few matches with me, and he fully admitted he understimated how good Jo Push was after we finished our bouts. He even made a small overview about it right after.

If you ever wanna run some matches my friend, let me know (PSN tag is "UnshavenOne").

 

[Marlow]

Safety isn't that big an issue with Electric Fly, since there's not much reason to throw it out other than as an ender. You can also hold fly and either cancel out of it or delay it to mess with the opponents timing if you don't want to hitconfirm it off the B12. Jo Push might be safer to throw out in neutral at max range, but in order to get that safety you're giving up Electric Fly (and Air Electric Fly) with it's solid damage and corner carry, and a potential second move since Jo Push costs two slots.

So basically you're giving up a solid combo ender for the least damaging of Raiden's 3 launchers, in order to get some possible safety at a very specific range. And again, as far as anti-airs go if you're running into jump happy opponents you can just use Summon Lighting. It's only 11f, completely shuts down the air, and on amp does solid damage for an anti air.

I just don't see how trading out Electric Fly for Jo Push is any kind of actual net positive. Again you're getting a little bit of safety, range, and harassment, while sacrificing a solid ender, an extra possible move, and winding up with a the worst damaging launcher.

For lighting rod, the chip is nice, and controlling the opponent's movement is nice, but for the cost of a bar I just don't see how it's worth it. Putting the rod out takes around 50 frames and means giving up your turn. You also lose access to your staff moves, and it's only out for 3 seconds so again you really need to commit to whatever you're doing, whether it's a jump in, projectile, F4/F2, whatever. Especially if you choose to do an amped Lightning Rod, because if you're too slow or they simply correctly block, you've just spent a bar for at best a little bit of chip, and at worst you're still getting full combo punished. All the opponent really has to do is crouch block and then react to a deep jump in.


This is you, right?:

I think you're a very good player, but watching this video it seems like a lot of the success you had (at least in this particular match) was due to you being the better player, and not so much to Truth and Light itself. A lot of your winning was simply due to you doing a better job at hitting your punishes, and your opponent just getting hit by moves and failing to properly punish your mistakes. If you'd been playing TW or Raijin you could have done just as well if not better, since you'd have had even more potential damage.

You're clearly a better player than I am, and if Truth and Light works for you, that's great. But from an analysis standpoint, I just don't think it's a good build at all.

 

[UnshavenRaven]

Safety isn't that big an issue with Electric Fly, since there's not much reason to throw it out other than as an ender. You can also hold fly and either cancel out of it or delay it to mess with the opponents timing if you don't want to hitconfirm it off the B12. Jo Push might be safer to throw out in neutral at max range, but in order to get that safety you're giving up Electric Fly (and Air Electric Fly) with it's solid damage and corner carry, and a potential second move since Jo Push costs two slots.

So basically you're giving up a solid combo ender for the least damaging of Raiden's 3 launchers, in order to get some possible safety at a very specific range. And again, as far as anti-airs go if you're running into jump happy opponents you can just use Summon Lighting. It's only 11f, completely shuts down the air, and on amp does solid damage for an anti air.

I just don't see how trading out Electric Fly for Jo Push is any kind of actual net positive. Again you're getting a little bit of safety, range, and harassment, while sacrificing a solid ender, an extra possible move, and winding up with a the worst damaging launcher.

For lighting rod, the chip is nice, and controlling the opponent's movement is nice, but for the cost of a bar I just don't see how it's worth it. Putting the rod out takes around 50 frames and means giving up your turn. You also lose access to your staff moves, and it's only out for 3 seconds so again you really need to commit to whatever you're doing, whether it's a jump in, projectile, F4/F2, whatever. Especially if you choose to do an amped Lightning Rod, because if you're too slow or they simply correctly block, you've just spent a bar for at best a little bit of chip, and at worst you're still getting full combo punished. All the opponent really has to do is crouch block and then react to a deep jump in.


This is you, right?:

I think you're a very good player, but watching this video it seems like a lot of the success you had (at least in this particular match) was due to you being the better player, and not so much to Truth and Light itself. A lot of your winning was simply due to you doing a better job at hitting your punishes, and your opponent just getting hit by moves and failing to properly punish your mistakes. If you'd been playing TW or Raijin you could have done just as well if not better, since you'd have had even more potential damage.

You're clearly a better player than I am, and if Truth and Light works for you, that's great. But from an analysis standpoint, I just don't think it's a good build at all.

Yeah, in the video that's from some mirror matches with my buddy Knockturnal awhile back. He plays a great Raiden too (Thunder Wave).

In regards to the Rod bubble, once you plant the bubble with the opponent inside, they cant combo punish you... they'll get staggered. If they decide to just walk through the bubble and block, that gives you ample time to block any of their advancing attack.

In regards to Jo Push vs Electric Fly, while yes it's true that Electric Fly is a great combo ender, I already have a fantastic combo ender in DB2 (Summon lightning) with solid damage. I don't really need two of those. So instead I get a great far midrange control tool (Jo Push). Why use Jo Push instead of Summon Lightning for anti air? Because Jo Push on airborne opponents can follow up with full combo punish (BF3, F2, 1, 2, DB2), while the summon lightning (DB2) is only a combo ender.

The offer for matches still stands if you change your mind my friend. If you want, we won't even have to do matches; we can test out and lab a few things if you wanna measure certain scenarios.

 

[xRantex]

I think also from f1 it's easier to convert into Jo push. And I can't tell you how many times I've caught ppl at max range with F1... Too many times. So F1, Jo push is definitely reliable.

 

[Marinjuana]

Lightning Rod: Lightning Rod is about 20f startup and 36f recovery. So if you're throwing that thing out in neutral your opponent now has a juicy 50f window to throw out a projectile or some kind of fast advancing move and punish. Even on knockdown the opponent can punish with a projectile or teleport before the rod is out.

Nonsense bro, it takes like 20 frames at least to react and input a move and then x amount of frames to get a projectile to lick Raiden. Then for knockdowns..

F32 is +41, Summon Lightning +47, B14 +37

and you wouldn't do it every knockdown. I would say if you are playing a character with a great projectile like Robocop, then you should be using it frequently to counter this move, but most characters don't have that kind of tool and you probably shouldn't be using Rod bubble to counter a zoner.

I think this move is much better then it's made out to be on here but it's not a move that's going to useful in every matchup and it's limited with the loadout potential

 

[Marlow]

The offer for matches still stands if you change your mind my friend. If you want, we won't even have to do matches; we can test out and lab a few things if you wanna measure certain scenarios.

We're good. I'll maybe hit the lab and test a few things out. I really do respect your opinion on this stuff, I'm just having a hard time seeing it.

 

[Marlow]

Nonsense bro, it takes like 20 frames at least to react and input a move and then x amount of frames to get a projectile to lick Raiden. Then for knockdowns..

F32 is +41, Summon Lightning +47, B14 +37

and you wouldn't do it every knockdown. I would say if you are playing a character with a great projectile like Robocop, then you should be using it frequently to counter this move, but most characters don't have that kind of tool and you probably shouldn't be using Rod bubble to counter a zoner.

I think this move is much better then it's made out to be on here but it's not a move that's going to useful in every matchup and it's limited with the loadout potential

It's easier to get the rod out than I'm making it out to be, yes. My problem though is that even if you get amped rod out, it's still only out for 3 seconds which isn't a ton of time, meaning you need to commit to what you're doing pretty quick, whether it's a jump in, projectile, or long normal. You're also basically spending a bar for a bit of screen control and maybe a bit of pressure with some potential damage if the opponent screws up. But most of the time if the opponent simply blocks and stays cool, all you'll get is a little bit of chip. It's not nothing, but it doesn't seem worth a bar to me. Maybe in some niche situations it has it's uses, but overall it's still one of his weaker moves.

 

[xRantex]

It's easier to get the rod out than I'm making it out to be, yes. My problem though is that even if you get amped rod out, it's still only out for 3 seconds which isn't a ton of time, meaning you need to commit to what you're doing pretty quick, whether it's a jump in, projectile, or long normal. You're also basically spending a bar for a bit of screen control and maybe a bit of pressure with some potential damage if the opponent screws up. But most of the time if the opponent simply blocks and stays cool, all you'll get is a little bit of chip. It's not nothing, but it doesn't seem worth a bar to me. Maybe in some niche situations it has it's uses, but overall it's still one of his weaker moves.

I have to agree with you on that. I wished it stayed out at least 1.5 - 2 seconds longer. Sometimes I could make it work but I see what you mean the move definitely has a down side to it.

 

[Marlow]

@UnshavenRaven One other question. I understand why you prefer Jo Push, but why pair it with Lightning Rod?