Lord Raiden Custom Variations Thread

[Marlow]

Don't get me wrong, I love setup characters, so I'd love to find a way to make rod worked. I've tried myself a couple times to see what there is, but every time I come away disappointed. Really cool possible setups in theory, but in reality those setups seem too rare to be reliable.

 

[Mandolore1123]

Teleporting close to them leaves you open for a punish if they don't decide to throw a projectile out. Lucky for you if the string they use to punish you pushes them out the bubble and the bubble effect hits them then you have the advantage.

Bubble trades are rarely in Raiden’s favour. Too little hit advantage

 

[Mandolore1123]

Opponent can beat almost all of those, or simply block and take the chip. It's decent chip, but for the cost of a bar and limited follow up? Just doesn't seem worth it.

Am pretty sure if you want to go for chip via say a string into projectile every option is either interruptible or punishable. You do get insane chip though, so like many of Raiden’s tools it’s good until they know the MU

 

[NeroOps]

I guess the thing to do would be to try setting up B12~amped rod, F32 knockdown into amped Rod, and Summon Lightning into Amped Rod and seeing what options Raiden has and how the opponent can counter. I'm just not sure the options are really in Raiden's favor. He basically needs to hard commit to either going for a projectile, going for a F4 or Dash D4, or going for a jump attack from a far range. Opponent can beat almost all of those, or simply block and take the chip. It's decent chip, but for the cost of a bar and limited follow up? Just doesn't seem worth it.

But it also gives you a more legit way to punish them if they do decide to throw a projectile. Once they respect the teleport, then you can actually start to hit them with Lightning Strike for the good chip damage.

Unless you're mixing between rod and his grab after b12 i wouldn't even use rod on block unless you hit confirm b12.
Why wouldn't any of the options raiden has after throwing a amp rod out be in his favor when you're in control of the situation?
The bad thing about sparkport and rod being a variation you only have his s21 as a launcher that can be combo extended which is difficult itself to hit confirm.
Its merely a straight mix variation that does little damage and it uses too much resources just get 30%.
The idea of using those two abilities is cool and helpful when someone throws a projectile when trapped in a bubble but you wouldn't get much damage teleporting and hit confirming them. The opponents placement in the bubble also still matters on what you can do afterwards.

Bubble trades are rarely in Raiden’s favour. Too little hit advantage

Actually it is in raidens favor majority of the time since they increased the hit advantage of amp rod on hit.
The only time that its not in raidens favor is when you do a move that connects on block after the bubble hits which changes the block advantage and stagger you have. Amp rod has a fluctuating +100 advantage on block by itself so if it hits after the move you do you won't be able to counter you're forced to respect it.

 

[Marlow]

@NeroOps How are you setting up the rod? Are you thinking of just doing it raw in neutral, doing it after knockdown, or doing it as a string ender?

Raiden's projectiles are 27 frames. Super Bolt is 26 frames, +11 more frames if you go for the max charge. Lightning Rod has 20 frames of startup and something like 30 frames of recovery. Putting the rod out generally means Raiden loses his turn. The opponent can simply pressure Raiden with a quick projectile, or sit and block.

I just don't think Raiden gains much in terms of risk/reward using the Rod as a setup. Plenty of ways for him to get punished, limited reward.

 

[Mandolore1123]

Unless you're mixing between rod and his grab after b12 i wouldn't even use rod on block unless you hit confirm b12.
Why wouldn't any of the options raiden has after throwing a amp rod out be in his favor when you're in control of the situation?
The bad thing about sparkport and rod being a variation you only have his s21 as a launcher that can be combo extended which is difficult itself to hit confirm.
Its merely a straight mix variation that does little damage and it uses too much resources just get 30%.
The idea of using those two abilities is cool and helpful when someone throws a projectile when trapped in a bubble but you wouldn't get much damage teleporting and hit confirming them. The opponents placement in the bubble also still matters on what you can do afterwards.


Actually it is in raidens favor majority of the time since they increased the hit advantage of amp rod on hit.
The only time that its not in raidens favor is when you do a move that connects on block after the bubble hits which changes the block advantage and stagger you have. Amp rod has a fluctuating +100 advantage on block by itself so if it hits after the move you do you won't be able to counter you're forced to respect it.

Alright, I stand corrected. I've never really put a lot of time into lightning rod setups because I'm not a setup type of person but I welcome anything that can increase the viability of it.

 

[NeroOps]

@NeroOps How are you setting up the rod? Are you thinking of just doing it raw in neutral, doing it after knockdown, or doing it as a string ender?

Raiden's projectiles are 27 frames. Super Bolt is 26 frames, +11 more frames if you go for the max charge. Lightning Rod has 20 frames of startup and something like 30 frames of recovery. Putting the rod out generally means Raiden loses his turn. The opponent can simply pressure Raiden with a quick projectile, or sit and block.

I just don't think Raiden gains much in terms of risk/reward using the Rod as a setup. Plenty of ways for him to get punished, limited reward.

I use it in neutral, knockdown, and as a string ender depending on the starter and if i hit confirm.

You can use amp rod after f32 on knockdown .
After d4 most don't expect the rod after a d4 so you may confirm a hit from rod.
After a db2 ender. It leaves your opponent fullscreen which allows you to use a projectile but at the same time allows opponent to throw projectiles from that distance afterwards. Its risky but it helps keep them stationary in one spot while you move forward.
Start of the match with the default spacing the opponent may walk back which stops them from moving. If they jump that's a full combo punish which is the risky side.
After s32 on airborne opponent. Use it as a combo ender or after a cross jump kick.
You have the option to be close and safe to flawless block up attack if opponent wakeup attack for combo or delay it then be at a safe range where no wakeup attack can reach you.

If you feel that its too much of a risk and challenge then don't use rod. It may not be for you. That's if you're trying to figure out if its worth using or not?

 

[Marlow]

If you feel that its too much of a risk and challenge then don't use rod. It may not be for you. That's if you're trying to figure out if its worth using or not?

I would love more than anything for Rod to be worth it. I just don't see how it would work that well in a real match against a real opponent.

 

[Mandolore1123]

Start of the match with the default spacing the opponent may walk back which stops them from moving. If they jump that's a full combo punish which is the risky side.

Can opponents walk back and block the AMP like how they’d get rid of artic trap?

 

[NeroOps]

Can opponents walk back and block the AMP like how they’d get rid of artic trap?

Yes they can but that's a risk of leaving themselves open until they hit block if they know the timing.
If they block it they have to hold that stagger from the bubble and whatever block pressure you throw at them if you're in the range.

 

[Mandolore1123]

Yes they can but that's a risk of leaving themselves open until they hit block if they know the timing.
If they block it they have to hold that stagger from the bubble and whatever block pressure you throw at them if you're in the range.

I suppose. I just feel that at the moment there’s no real threat to be experienced from the bubble. You can pair it with other moves to make it better, but on it’s own it’s simply not a very good tool.

 

[Marlow]

You can pair it with other moves to make it better, but on it’s own it’s simply not a very good tool.

I think it works best as a way to limit movement, so I could see pairing it with Rolling Thunder and Lightning Storm. Put the opponent in the bubble to lock them down, then throw out the rolling cloud, then fish for something like F4~DU~Amp~Overhead for some decent mix of chip, DOT, or possible safe combo if you do catch the opponent. Great anti from Summon Lightning, corner carry if you desire with Electric Fly. Not optimal by any means, but probably viable if you're really looking to play Raiden in an unorthodox way and are on point with your neutral.

I've tried theorizing adding moves like Storm Cell or Jo Push to try and pair a launcher with it, but then it starts to become less relevant because it's almost always better to make the build built around the launcher instead of Lightning Rod, and if you're building around the launcher then there's better tools than Lightning Rod.

 

[Mandolore1123]

I think it works best as a way to limit movement, so I could see pairing it with Rolling Thunder and Lightning Storm. Put the opponent in the bubble to lock them down, then throw out the rolling cloud, then fish for something like F4~DU~Amp~Overhead for some decent mix of chip, DOT, or possible safe combo if you do catch the opponent. Great anti from Summon Lightning, corner carry if you desire with Electric Fly. Not optimal by any means, but probably viable if you're really looking to play Raiden in an unorthodox way and are on point with your neutral.

I've tried theorizing adding moves like Storm Cell or Jo Push to try and pair a launcher with it, but then it starts to become less relevant because it's almost always better to make the build built around the launcher instead of Lightning Rod, and if you're building around the launcher then there's better tools than Lightning Rod.

But you're like spending 2 bars on 6-8% chip, and after that you're left with only defensive resources. I completely with your analysis here. I don't really see the point in putting on rod unless it's with some launcher to capitalise reliably, and even then if you have a launcher then there are just better moves to put on. I can only hope NRS takes a long hard look and gives some appropriate buffs to this move

 

[Marlow]

@Evil Canadian with the great vid, thanks!

 

[Mandolore1123]

@Evil Canadian with the great vid, thanks!

A word on the diagonal projectile: While yes it's super fast and not a lot of characters can do a lot in terms of punishing, if they are also trying to throw regular high projectiles at you and you try to counter-zone with this move, often times Raiden punishes himself. The bolt causes some recoil (like firing a gun) to Raiden, and moves his hurt box upwards and back, which can help avoid some projectiles (since if you just float everything from jabs to uppercuts and most importantly all the straight high projectiles can hit you out of float). However, against a lot of projectiles with travel speed that isn't all that fast (e.g. Noob's spirit ball/Skarlet's blood ball) you can avoid the projectile initially by moving your hurt box upwards, and you might even get the punish with your own projectile, but as you move backwards and the move forces you out of the air you land right back into the projectile they threw, and you either get knocked down (an unfavourable trade as diagonal projectile does not knock down the opponent) or get put into massive hit advantage, effectively defeating the purpose of trying to counter zone. I'm not going to say this move is useless, since against Cassie and Sindel and their low projectiles this move counter zones very well, considering those projectiles will never hit him out of float, BUT keep in mind it's also -7 on hit, and the most plus you can get is around -4 or 0 on hit if you're very on point with spacing and hit them right at the toes. If one is trying to counter zone, unfortunately you have to commit to doing a stomp and "leapfrog" over projectiles, but that opens you up to being whiff punished on recovery, and against many AMP projectiles you might also stomp straight into the AMP portion which travels behind the initial fireball.

 

[Marlow]

Yeah, I don't think I'd use the projectile off of Lightning Storm unless it was matchup specific.

 

[Mandolore1123]

It's great knowing that 24 jails into AMP float too though, will definitely help in terms of jailing offence off pokes, especially in the corner. Our D4 buffs also mean that people are much less likely to mash out of the followup F4~float AMP as well, so any D4 on hit guarantees 6-7% chip unless it's at max max range where F4 whiffs. Though I am curious if F2~float AMP will jail since these 2 moves generally exhibit the same properties when being special cancelled (both F2 and F4 cancelled into electric burst has no gap in Raijin for example). @Evil Canadian Did you test this normal?

 

[Marlow]

Something minor: The 4 for 24 is a low, so if you go into Lightning Storm it forces the opponent to essentially block low and then overhead in the same sequence. Probably won't affect higher level players too much, but it could trip up some players who weren't looking for it.

 

[Marlow]

An example of using Rolling Thunder in a corner combo. I was just thinking the other day that if you wanted Summon Lightning and Rolling Thunder in the same build, but still wanted a launcher, Jo Push is really the only way to get that.

I assume you can probably get a similar setup with Storm Cell by ending a combo into F32 and then putting out the cloud.

 

[Marlow]

Can't believe I didn't think of this, but if you do F4-Lightning Storm Amp you can choose to cancel and end up being something like +10-14 frames for some pressure.

 

[Mandolore1123]

Can't believe I didn't think of this, but if you do F4-Lightning Storm Amp you can choose to cancel and end up being something like +10-14 frames for some pressure.

Good stuff!

 

[Mandolore1123]

@Marlow @Trustful_Whale @Darth Mao Do you think we can get something like this? Scorpion's demon breath is +18 on hit and that leads into an unescapable throw attempt (unless they tech right) or a guaranteed interactable. Since we can be close to +18 off float cancel from F4 it may be worth it to test and see if there are some guaranteed interactable/throw setups that Raiden gets off his plus frames.

 

[Mandolore1123]

Can't believe I didn't think of this, but if you do F4-Lightning Storm Amp you can choose to cancel and end up being something like +10-14 frames for some pressure.

Remember this? Yeah it works off every string and normal, but the distance where you end up varies. B12, S12 and S32 leave you pretty far, around F1 distance, but F4, F2 and F3 leave you at B1/F3 range, so off every confirm you can cancel into at least +10 on hit and go for a free strike/throw.

 

[Marlow]

Scorpion's demon breath is +18 on hit and that leads into an unescapable throw attempt (unless they tech right) or a guaranteed interactable.

Sounds like there was a patch yesterday that fixed this, so I assume even if Raiden could be +18, he wouldn't get a guaranteed setup. The opponent would still have the option to jump/duck to avoid the throw.

 

[Mandolore1123]

Sounds like there was a patch yesterday that fixed this, so I assume even if Raiden could be +18, he wouldn't get a guaranteed setup. The opponent would still have the option to jump/duck to avoid the throw.

Yeah. Saved me the trouble of testing this