Match-up Discussion Lobo Matchup Discussion 2014

[Cage Redfield]

The random note is when you MB Hook Charge, lobo swings his chain in the reverse while charges in the correct position.

What's out best option after backdash since ours kinda suck. When's the best time to reload since it's pretty hard to knock down a doomsday IMO.

Probably when he loads up trait as well, after that you'd just have to sit on it and use it mid-combo.

As for backdash options, b1 is the only tool from that distance that's worth using. Everything else is too slow and will get beat by DD d1.

 

[Captain Oxygen]

@JustPressingButtons
In escrima yes our wake up sucks. But we out zone.
Much faster
Better punishing
Better "Safe" footsies
In escrima I can bully your wakeup just as bad you can bully mines.

I play @Yoaksssss and our matches our always even. Recently though I've been getting more wins.

NW isn't "much faster" than lobo.
He doesnt have "better punishes"
I don't understand what the heck you mean by "better safe footsies"
Lobo beats nw on wake-up hella better than him.

Ive ran this match offline multiple times and basically all of what JPB said. Lobo has Better damage, wakeup, Mixups, space control, and Hella better mid range game than nightwing.

I've never understood why lobos have trouble in this match?

 

[Yoaks]

NW isn't "much faster" than lobo.
He doesnt have "better punishes"
I don't understand what the heck you mean by "better safe footsies"
Lobo beats nw on wake-up hella better than him.

Ive ran this match offline multiple times and basically all of what JPB said. Lobo has Better damage, wakeup, Mixups, space control, and Hella better mid range game than nightwing.

I've never understood why lobos have trouble in this match?

What should I be doing against NW? Cause he's annoying as hell for me.

 

[FOREVER EL1TE]

NW isn't "much faster" than lobo.
He doesnt have "better punishes"
I don't understand what the heck you mean by "better safe footsies"
Lobo beats nw on wake-up hella better than him.

Ive ran this match offline multiple times and basically all of what JPB said. Lobo has Better damage, wakeup, Mixups, space control, and Hella better mid range game than nightwing.

I've never understood why lobos have trouble in this match?

Im saying that Nightwing has faster startups on most things and plus strings.
You cant punish any of our footsies.
Our d1 or d12 is very plus. Our b2 is only -4. Your hook charge is very negative on block and yall might use this as a footsie tool. We do punish better. And when we switch to escrima we even even out space control. Get the upper hand in mixups. And mid game is even.

 

[Captain Oxygen]

I still dont understand what you mean by "better punishes". Do they do more damage? We punish all of your wakeups. Trait pumpshot Punishes your grounded zoning attempts and wing dings on block.

Lobo has plenty of plus strings off fast normals. Hook Charge is unsafe, but safe when mb'd and invincible on wake-up.

And this is a match lobo wants to stay out of NWs +50 d1's and in the mid range till your knocked down. Nw's antiairs are also terrible compared to lobos plethora of antiairs.

The "mid range" is easily in lobos favour? Nightwings best tool in this range is wingding/flying grayson and are both unsafe

 

[Yoaks]

@Captain Oxygen @GGA Fill Pops @Maxter @Cage Redfield @Decay II @JustPressingButtons @Chaosphere Guys!? How do we fight Killer Frost?
@Rickyraws @astronout @Ne'er-do-well @Vak Phoenix @RiBBz22@xKhaoTik What do you guys think on how this match up goes?

 

[Captain Oxygen]

Feels pretty even, her zoning isn't anything special against Lobo. You can even punish Iceberg with Trait shots.
Slide on block generally puts her at a really bad position, Lobo can mix up her pretty easily, plus his B3 and F3 are unparryable. Her footsie game is pretty weak.
Her antiair game is kinda whatever. Lobo outdamages Frost but she has a vortex. They're both meter dependant. It's funny, her parry is like +2 on HIT and does no damage, if I get parried I just go "whatever hook charge again lol"

I'd say its 5-5

 

[Yoaks]

I don't see how Slide on block puts her at a bad position. If I try too d1 her she can parry me and than im in the vortex. Or she can d1 poke me out of whatever else im doing and combo that back into slide and....am back in the vortex. I played Rickyraws a couple hours ago and he 10-0 me. Perhaps there's something I just dnt knw and that Ricky is just a better player than me. Also! Can't we jump back on her wakeup slide and punish with ji2? Cause i did that a couple times against him but my ji would whiff and than i would get hit by her Slide at the end of the animation. I'm I just timing it wrong?

 

[Decay]

I'm not great fighting against killer frost, every time I fight Ricky raws online its a very close match but she has great comeback potential. I think the oki game is fucked up for lobo because she can side for free so trying to do any knockdown into grab is very risky. Trait shots do punish but that's if she's willing to just throw it out there. I'm good at anti air d2 her air dash. I don't agree with oxygen about her position after slide... I feel like I'm the one guessing and my guess is usually wrong lol but for the most part it's fairly even, I beat many killer frosts @Yoakss @Captain Oxygen

 

[Chaosphere]

If I block a slide I sometimes try to open her up by immediately going for a throw there which sets up the meta, I think. I don't have a ton of matchup experience.

She's at -4... if she doesn't block then d1~low shot or d1~hook charge/low hook if you don't have trait. If she does block then either throw, toss, or d1~toss as a tick throw.

 

[Yoaks]

If I block a slide I sometimes try to open her up by immediately going for a throw there which sets up the meta, I think. I don't have a ton of matchup experience.

She's at -4... if she doesn't block then d1~low shot or d1~hook charge/low hook if you don't have trait. If she does block then either throw, toss, or d1~toss as a tick throw.

Yea but the threat of a MB Parry is still an option for her. This match up is tough. I have it as even just because I'm not to sure how too play it.

 

[Chongo]

I'm down to play any lobos to grind out the nw mu

 

[Chaosphere]

Yea but the threat of a MB Parry is still an option for her. This match up is tough. I have it as even just because I'm not to sure how too play it.

And we have the threat of throw/toss =P

 

[Yoaks]

And we have the threat of throw/toss =P

Yea but she has the threat of d1 xx Slide. Lol man this game with its guessing game.

 

[JustPressingButtons]

In my opinion, post slide it's best to NJ1 until she D2's. Then, more guessing games begin, more so in our favor.

 

[Decay]

I just wish she has something that's definitely punishable besides that ice berg

 

[Cage Redfield]

So I was playing @EGP Wonder_Chef in a long set against his Flash, seems that if you remotely try to fuzzy to punish MB head charge, stupid shit happens. Sometimes I had to block both hits crouching, sometimes I would be standing and 2nd hit would whiff and others I was normally ducking and punishing the move. Either Online is shenanigans, or you straight up have to hold down as Lobo due to his weird hurtbox. One note about this set: Everyone, learn Instant (as instant as you could humanly do) Air facedive. Doing this whenever there is a gap in blockstrings is suuuuuuuuuuuper good. It's not that risky vs opponents with shitty conversions when the opponent is in the air and if it's blocked, depending on the pushback of the blockstring/if you jumped forward for your facedive, you're at neutral or + on block. It sounds absolutely ridiculous, but try it against a character with gaps in their blockstring pressure, it forces them to be on-point and mind-games ensue. In case anyone's asking where in Flash's blockstring was I able to IAFD, it was whenever he made me block a Lighting Kick, since it's -5.

I kinda feel like facedive isn't talked about enough with this character... there's some really weird shit you're able to avoid with it. It's like a better, easier-to-time forward dash when trying to go past stuff.


As for "what do vs blocked slide":

D1 beats D1 xx slide due to her being minus, B1/instant air facedive beats parry, MBB3 to beat MBF3. I wouldn't suggest tossing unless the mind-games have gotten to the point where she's standing still because of your options (even though her options are just as good). It's 21f startup, she's only -4, she could go to town on you if you try tossing/or do throw immune shit like a normal F3.

 

[Cage Redfield]

Terribly sorry to double post, but may I ask why Lobo vs Aquaman is in Lobo's favor when:

1. We can't apply the most important thing about Lobo against him. The 33/33/33 mix-up is super unsafe against Aquaman. What I'm trying to say here is that, say you poke him with a D1 and go for the 21 mix-up. He can trait the minute he blocks the 2, get hit by the 1 and block hook charge or low shot/hook. Now, he has to guess between High/Low (Toss isn't an option because he took the hit from 21 and 21 xx toss is EXTREMELY negative on hit), but both options are unsafe. You try Hook Charge, you get B1 punished. You try Low Shot, you're getting D1 xx FTD punished. The only way you're staying safe in this situation is if you spend resources, like a bar or a trait shell. So lemme say that once more. You hit Aquaman with a D1 and go for the guaranteed 33/33/33 mix-up from 21. He takes the second hit, traits up and you're forced to react to him popping trait or try reading that and either MB your Hook Charge/use a shell on Low Shot/god forbid you tried toss.

With 2 xx whatever, I can see it being different, but he can, again, take the first hit and block whatever you canceled into. 2 xx whatever is also a lot riskier since you can't hit-confirm it like 21, you're just doing a normal and immediately canceling it into a mix-up option.

2. I also remember hearing that Lobo was one of the few characters that were able to punish trident rush MB with his standing 1. However, that means nothing when 113 is easily traited. You have all the time in the world as Aquaman to react to getting hit by 113 and trait out before the 3. Your fastest, damaging punish is easily trait-able.

3. Lemme ask another question: With the above in mind, how is Lobo getting his trait loaded against Aquaman? You can't just load it in the neutral because FTD exists. Your main mix-up is trait-able, so opening him up is a lot harder. Reacting to him doing something like a jump back to get away with a trait load is also punishable by FTD. Are you supposed to just take the 20% so you can get knocked down + end up farther away from him (Aquaman can do FTD MB > FTD and backdash twice to get to full screen) ? But hey, at least you can shoot him once you get close enough and he decides to FTD for some reason when you have trait loaded.

4. Another thing I keep hearing is that we out-damage him. His combos from B12 usually end in the early 40%'s. If you manage to get a raw toss on aquaman, you get 38% - 43% with trait shells. B12 xx MBB3 leads to 44% - 50% with a trait shell. 12 xx toss mb leads to 42% - 46% with a trait shell. If the Aquaman player decided to take a nap mid-game, you get 48% - 51% with one shell - 54% with 2 shells if you started with B2u1. 113 (which, like B2u1, will only work if the Aquaman player doesn't have trait or decided to go to sleep mid-game) leads to 45% - 48% with a shell. I'd like to believe I know optimal combos with Lobo, since I've been playing him for a year now. The minute you eliminate B2u1/starting with 113, your damage is on par with his, unless you use trait solely to do more damage whenever you open him up and don't care about sending him full screen afterward.

The one thing I can see that helps in this matchup is that Aquaman has terrible wakeups, but so does Zod and that matchup sucks. I don't see how it's in our favor at all, and would love to hear why it's been accepted by many as a winning matchup for Lobo.

 

[Yoaks]

Terribly sorry to double post, but may I ask why Lobo vs Aquaman is in Lobo's favor when:

1. We can't apply the most important thing about Lobo against him. The 33/33/33 mix-up is super unsafe against Aquaman. What I'm trying to say here is that, say you poke him with a D1 and go for the 21 mix-up. He can trait the minute he blocks the 2, get hit by the 1 and block hook charge or low shot/hook. Now, he has to guess between High/Low (Toss isn't an option because he took the hit from 21 and 21 xx toss is EXTREMELY negative on hit), but both options are unsafe. You try Hook Charge, you get B1 punished. You try Low Shot, you're getting D1 xx FTD punished. The only way you're staying safe in this situation is if you spend resources, like a bar or a trait shell. So lemme say that once more. You hit Aquaman with a D1 and go for the guaranteed 33/33/33 mix-up from 21. He takes the second hit, traits up and you're forced to react to him popping trait or try reading that and either MB your Hook Charge/use a shell on Low Shot/god forbid you tried toss.

With 2 xx whatever, I can see it being different, but he can, again, take the first hit and block whatever you canceled into. 2 xx whatever is also a lot riskier since you can't hit-confirm it like 21, you're just doing a normal and immediately canceling it into a mix-up option.

2. I also remember hearing that Lobo was one of the few characters that were able to punish trident rush MB with his standing 1. However, that means nothing when 113 is easily traited. You have all the time in the world as Aquaman to react to getting hit by 113 and trait out before the 3. Your fastest, damaging punish is easily trait-able.

3. Lemme ask another question: With the above in mind, how is Lobo getting his trait loaded against Aquaman? You can't just load it in the neutral because FTD exists. Your main mix-up is trait-able, so opening him up is a lot harder. Reacting to him doing something like a jump back to get away with a trait load is also punishable by FTD. Are you supposed to just take the 20% so you can get knocked down + end up farther away from him (Aquaman can do FTD MB > FTD and backdash twice to get to full screen) ? But hey, at least you can shoot him once you get close enough and he decides to FTD for some reason when you have trait loaded.

4. Another thing I keep hearing is that we out-damage him. His combos from B12 usually end in the early 40%'s. If you manage to get a raw toss on aquaman, you get 38% - 43% with trait shells. B12 xx MBB3 leads to 44% - 50% with a trait shell. 12 xx toss mb leads to 42% - 46% with a trait shell. If the Aquaman player decided to take a nap mid-game, you get 48% - 51% with one shell - 54% with 2 shells if you started with B2u1. 113 (which, like B2u1, will only work if the Aquaman player doesn't have trait or decided to go to sleep mid-game) leads to 45% - 48% with a shell. I'd like to believe I know optimal combos with Lobo, since I've been playing him for a year now. The minute you eliminate B2u1/starting with 113, your damage is on par with his, unless you use trait solely to do more damage whenever you open him up and don't care about sending him full screen afterward.

The one thing I can see that helps in this matchup is that Aquaman has terrible wakeups, but so does Zod and that matchup sucks. I don't see how it's in our favor at all, and would love to hear why it's been accepted by many as a winning matchup for Lobo.

Couple weeks ago I've change the Lobo v Aqua mu back too a 5-5. Reason being is pretty much what you just posted and .... I got my bootox handed too me by @Syknis .

 

[Cage Redfield]

I kinda feel like facedive isn't talked about enough with this character... there's some really weird shit you're able to avoid with it. It's like a better, easier-to-time forward dash when trying to go past stuff.

I feel like I should be a little less vague about this statement, don't want people to come in here, see this and think facedive is a get-out-of-pressure tool.

Basically, the rolling recovery of facedive has an even lower hurtbox than forward dash does. One of the reasons I recommend using it during blockstrings with gaps in them (not to be confused with just strings on block, i'm talking about blockstrings like Batman's pressure) is because, when the opponent reads an instant air facedive and tries to MB B3, you can roll past them (depending on the character's b3 and if they're off the floor during the animation). Another example of using this to avoid stuff would be to jump forward on reaction to a ground zodball and face dive. If you timed it right, you roll past the zod ball. Forward dashing through attacks is nearly impossible since the timing is very strict, but with facedive, it's way easier. Not to say that, vs zod you should be using facedives to get in, but it's certainly an option if his trait's not out + doesn't have a bar for mb laser.

 

[Captain Oxygen]

I feel like I should be a little less vague about this statement, don't want people to come in here, see this and think facedive is a get-out-of-pressure tool.

Basically, the rolling recovery of facedive has an even lower hurtbox than forward dash does. One of the reasons I recommend using it during blockstrings with gaps in them (not to be confused with just strings on block, i'm talking about blockstrings like Batman's pressure) is because, when the opponent reads an instant air facedive and tries to MB B3, you can roll past them (depending on the character's b3 and if they're off the floor during the animation). Another example of using this to avoid stuff would be to jump forward on reaction to a ground zodball and face dive. If you timed it right, you roll past the zod ball. Forward dashing through attacks is nearly impossible since the timing is very strict, but with facedive, it's way easier. Not to say that, vs zod you should be using facedives to get in, but it's certainly an option if his trait's not out + doesn't have a bar for mb laser.

The whiff recovery on the Party Crasher is so long, even with the low hitbox I don't think I'd really use it unless there was a VERY specific situation I'd use it in. And using it to bait out a bad punish is really gimmicky.

Honestly I almost never use PC because of Hook Charge, plus the fact that it doesn't do much damage, it only serves to keep the opponent on their toes.

 

[Chongo]

How does lobo do vs sinestro, zod, and wowo?

 

[Chaosphere]

With 2 xx whatever, I can see it being different, but he can, again, take the first hit and block whatever you canceled into. 2 xx whatever is also a lot riskier since you can't hit-confirm it like 21, you're just doing a normal and immediately canceling it into a mix-up option.

First off, traited low shot is advantage on block correct? So it doesn't get punished by b1?

And wouldn't the mixup be between 2~low shot, and 21~toss? He has to guess that right? If he waits for the 1 in 21 to hit to trait... then low shot launches him for a combo. If he purposefully gets hit by 2, then he has to block the 1~toss. He can still jump out of 21~grab, but that's when 21~low shot comes into play. I feel like your entire post is assuming aquaman will make every correct read every single time. I dunno. I'll go over it more and think about it more.

As far as him winning the matchup goes... I don't know. But I think Lobo at least goes even with him.

 

[Cage Redfield]

The whiff recovery on the Party Crasher is so long, even with the low hitbox I don't think I'd really use it unless there was a VERY specific situation I'd use it in. And using it to bait out a bad punish is really gimmicky.

Honestly I almost never use PC because of Hook Charge, plus the fact that it doesn't do much damage, it only serves to keep the opponent on their toes.

Well, I did only list extremely situational moments where it could be used lol. It's just as practical as normally dashing through moves like Bane's Double Punch, it's just that the window for it is much longer than the forward dash's.

I honestly feel like more people need to use instant air facedive more, not just because it's an instant overhead. Having an overhead that's safe on block, catches backdashes from up close and is incredibly fast is way better than an overhead that needs meter to be safe. It's also really good to keep the opponent honest whenever they're using pressure with gaps/cancel their pressure into a negative move and helps make them second guess how to approach you. Facedive and Hook charge do the same damage, 9%, btw. And you get an extra layer of mix-ups from IA facedive, cross-up IA facedive. So they have to guess between left/right/low/meaty toss. The more I play him, the more i see uses for this move.

First off, traited low shot is advantage on block correct?

And wouldn't the mixup be between 2~low shot, and 21~toss? He has to guess that right? If he waits for the 1 in 21 to hit to trait... then low shot launches him for a combo. If he purposefully gets hit by 2, then he has to block the 1~toss. He can still jump out of 21~grab, but that's when 21~low shot comes into play. I feel like your entire post is assuming aquaman will make every correct read every single time. I dunno. I'll go over it more and think about it more.

Yes, it's +2 (you were to one to mention that at first, actually). If Aquaman eats the overhead and you cancel into toss, you're -13, more than enough time for him to B1 you. The whole thing about this is that Low Shot is only safe when you have a trait shell loaded. And like I said in my post, it's nearly impossible to get trait loaded against him. Low Shot isn't something you'll be able to default to when he D1 punishes you for 40% (yes, Aquaman gets 40% from a d1 for a bar). If you're not traited, he's either eating 21 and punishing HC, getting hit by a 5% low that pushes him away from you, or punishing your tick throw attempt. Or he punishes our low for 40% and eats the HC (which would be preferable). The main thing that's dreadful about Aquaman and his trait as Lobo, is that he can guess wrong and be fine/potentially get huge damage. He has to guess between 2-3 options but they're all very unsafe unless you have the resources to spend. Against aquaman, you're going to spend half the fight struggling to get those resources. The whole risk/reward is skewed when his trait comes into play.

Another thing that just came to mind about this matchup: Our back walkspeed, while the coolest in the game, is slow. Aquaman's forward walk is faster than our backwalk, so dealing with B1 when he's near that range is also a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuge issue. He practically gets to stab us to death.

 

[Cage Redfield]

How does lobo do vs sinestro, zod, and wowo?

decent/slight disadvantage, disadvantage, disadvantage

Sin can keep us out pretty well but it's very, VERY easy to abuse him on knockdown. Zod is downright painful because he shuts you down so hard with his trait and zoning. Wowo is just the classic case of rushdown vs space control character, the minute she's in, it's very hard getting out.