Match-up Discussion Kung Lao Match-Up Chart December 2012

[YOMI DJT]

could you break the basics down of the matchup? because I used to think it was sektor favor until I played it differently. sektor has problems against kung lao's hitbox as well.

your first thoughts were right my friend. Sektor does beat lao. Lao can't throw any hats.
flamethrower keeps lao from divekicking in like a maniac.
Tele can be punished almost 100% of the time by sektor
Sektor doesn't have to go on the offense vs lao to beat him he can zone him
Lao has to get in
Lao's pressure goes over sektor all day
Lao has to grab alot to get some damage sometimes because his pressure won't last long vs sektor
Sektor outfootsies lao in this mu
at the highest lvl sektor wins it 6-4
you can look at Pl vs gross but pl didn't really know the mu
Cdjr vs gross cdjr switched to kabal he lost with his kl against gross sektor
sektor can keep Kl cornered with that upmissile pressure
kl can't tele out of it
Sektors B3, F1 and B1 are good normals to outfootsie lao
Kl has to play too differently to beat sektor
he cant do his usual pressure
Sektor is a counterpick to Kl our community will realize it soon
Kl has to jump around too much to beat sektor
it just a bad mu that is manageablee for lao
one last time 6-4 sektor

 

[Big Pampering]

your first thoughts were right my friend. Sektor does beat lao. Lao can't throw any hats.
flamethrower keeps lao from divekicking in like a maniac.
Tele can be punished almost 100% of the time by sektor
Sektor doesn't have to go on the offense vs lao to beat him he can zone him
Lao has to get in
Lao's pressure goes over sektor all day
Lao has to grab alot to get some damage sometimes because his pressure won't last long vs sektor
Sektor outfootsies lao in this mu
at the highest lvl sektor wins it 6-4
you can look at Pl vs gross but pl didn't really know the mu
Cdjr vs gross cdjr switched to kabal he lost with his kl against gross sektor
sektor can keep Kl cornered with that upmissile pressure
kl can't tele out of it
Sektors B3, F1 and B1 are good normals to outfootsie lao
Kl has to play too differently to beat sektor
he cant do his usual pressure
Sektor is a counterpick to Kl our community will realize it soon
Kl has to jump around too much to beat sektor
it just a bad mu that is manageablee for lao
one last time 6-4 sektor

Kung lao has many ways to get in, the roll is really good in this matchup imo. flamethrower is not safe on block. Pl didnt play the matchup right, but cdjr's lao is new, so he doesnt have the mindset of a lao player yet. his b3 string is full combo punishable by lao because lao also has a low hitbox, it will whiff on the second hit. Kung lao can start pretty good offense when he knocks sektor down. the same way lao has way against a low hitbox like mileena's, lao also has some ways to get around that hitbox imo. I dont think he can punish 21212 on block either which is great for lao.

having that said, the reason I had it 6-4 in favor of sektor, was because of all the tools he has on paper against lao. But the reason I have it 5-5 now is because there hasnt really been any sektor that really knows how to abuse their low hitbox like that. it can get really nasty for lao if he is cornered without meter. but the thing is just because the standing 2 is 7 frames doesnt mean you can abuse it right in their face against anyone like cage does. the lao player is supposed to stand at the range where he can dash in and land his 21, this way the cant just be mashing pokes against you and you will be at disadvantage if you whiff something.

edit: no character can zone kung lao, just because they can shut down teleport and dive kick, still means he has that roll, and even then he can just dash in because they have to look out for the 3 other options.

 

[YOMI DJT]

Kung lao has many ways to get in, the roll is really good in this matchup imo. flamethrower is not safe on block. Pl didnt play the matchup right, but cdjr's lao is new, so he doesnt have the mindset of a lao player yet. his b3 string is full combo punishable by lao because lao also has a low hitbox, it will whiff on the second hit. Kung lao can start pretty good offense when he knocks sektor down. the same way lao has way against a low hitbox like mileena's, lao also has some ways to get around that hitbox imo. I dont think he can punish 21212 on block either which is great for lao.

having that said, the reason I had it 6-4 in favor of sektor, was because of all the tools he has on paper against lao. But the reason I have it 5-5 now is because there hasnt really been any sektor that really knows how to abuse their low hitbox like that. it can get really nasty for lao if he is cornered without meter. but the thing is just because the standing 2 is 7 frames doesnt mean you can abuse it right in their face against anyone like cage does. the lao player is supposed to stand at the range where he can dash in and land his 21, this way the cant just be mashing pokes against you and you will be at disadvantage if you whiff something.

edit: no character can zone kung lao, just because they can shut down teleport and dive kick, still means he has that roll, and even then he can just dash in because they have to look out for the 3 other options.

You got that wrong B34 is punishable B3 is neutral on block can't punish it. Lao can't punish flame I don't think. Sektor doesn't have to completely zone he can wait for lao to make mistakes. and lao can't make many mistakes in this match. Sektor corner game against lao is better than lao corner game vs sektor.

I think he can punish 21212 with his 6f jab. sektor punishes anytime lao tries to do lowhat on sektor and sektor blocks it, it full combo punish 40% or more. Lao's offensive options are very limited in this mu. you play sektor who knows the mu well offline and its very hard for lao. Its not easy for lao. Sektor can lame lao out pretty easy. Sektor doesn't have to worry about lao pressure at all because one mistake equals huge punish for sektor.he can just duck block wont have to worry about tele mixup because he'll go right over sektor. sektor can punish easy.

Whiff a 2, get a lowhat blocked, throw a hat at the wrong time all equal to sektor getting a full punish. Sektor doesn't have to do much to win this match. Roll is ok but doesn't leave you with many options to do vs sektor. roll hat equals punish. roll 21 punish. roll tele punish. but roll would just get him in there. this isn't mileena with slow normal. sektor has better normals and an easy time punishing lao.

This is a 6-4 sektor lao has problem with. you going 5-5 with sektor doesn't mean lao wins it. you had to adjust to the losing mu. now that you adjusted it seems like the mu is 5-5 but that just an illusion.

the real mu is 6-4 which is still manageable for lao.

 

[Big Pampering]

You got that wrong B34 is punishable B3 is neutral on block can't punish it. Lao can't punish flame I don't think. Sektor doesn't have to completely zone he can wait for lao to make mistakes. and lao can't make many mistakes in this match. Sektor corner game against lao is better than lao corner game vs sektor.

I think he can punish 21212 with his 6f jab. sektor punishes anytime lao tries to do lowhat on sektor and sektor blocks it, it full combo punish 40% or more. Lao's offensive options are very limited in this mu. you play sektor who knows the mu well offline and its very hard for lao. Its not easy for lao. Sektor can lame lao out pretty easy. Sektor doesn't have to worry about lao pressure at all because one mistake equals huge punish for sektor.he can just duck block wont have to worry about tele mixup because he'll go right over sektor. sektor can punish easy.

Whiff a 2, get a lowhat blocked, throw a hat at the wrong time all equal to sektor getting a full punish. Sektor doesn't have to do much to win this match. Roll is ok but doesn't leave you with many options to do vs sektor. roll hat equals punish. roll 21 punish. roll tele punish. but roll would just get him in there. this isn't mileena with slow normal. sektor has better normals and an easy time punishing lao.

This is a 6-4 sektor lao has problem with. you going 5-5 with sektor doesn't mean lao wins it. you had to adjust to the losing mu. now that you adjusted it seems like the mu is 5-5 but that just an illusion.

the real mu is 6-4 which is still manageable for lao.

b3 on its own doesnt lead to anything big guaranteed. flametrhower is actually punished by ex spin. lao shouldnt teleport at all so he doesnt have to worry about it getting punished. youre not going to punish 21 often on whiff because of its speed range and recovery. if the lao player actually knows how to space 21, he wont get whiff punished for it at all. roll in can be canceled into spin which is a 50/50. because of this lao can throw you or start a string or poke you if you try that standing 1 jab. laos jab is still better because of its range. sektor can't punish 21212 on block well because standing 1 string doesnt have the range to do it, I asked it the other day in the sektor forums. also Ive been doing this for a while now but I really think lao players should do the ex hat combo with 112/21/24 startup because it will get you around 43% which means two combos in is win because the rest will be dealt with chip damage.


maybe youre right, but we both agree it is a manageable matchup.

 

[ForeverKing]

You got that wrong B34 is punishable B3 is neutral on block can't punish it. Lao can't punish flame I don't think. Sektor doesn't have to completely zone he can wait for lao to make mistakes. and lao can't make many mistakes in this match. Sektor corner game against lao is better than lao corner game vs sektor.

I think he can punish 21212 with his 6f jab. sektor punishes anytime lao tries to do lowhat on sektor and sektor blocks it, it full combo punish 40% or more. Lao's offensive options are very limited in this mu. you play sektor who knows the mu well offline and its very hard for lao. Its not easy for lao. Sektor can lame lao out pretty easy. Sektor doesn't have to worry about lao pressure at all because one mistake equals huge punish for sektor.he can just duck block wont have to worry about tele mixup because he'll go right over sektor. sektor can punish easy.

Whiff a 2, get a lowhat blocked, throw a hat at the wrong time all equal to sektor getting a full punish. Sektor doesn't have to do much to win this match. Roll is ok but doesn't leave you with many options to do vs sektor. roll hat equals punish. roll 21 punish. roll tele punish. but roll would just get him in there. this isn't mileena with slow normal. sektor has better normals and an easy time punishing lao.

This is a 6-4 sektor lao has problem with. you going 5-5 with sektor doesn't mean lao wins it. you had to adjust to the losing mu. now that you adjusted it seems like the mu is 5-5 but that just an illusion.

the real mu is 6-4 which is still manageable for lao.

Watch me vs Pimpimluigi, idk if you can find it on Pig Of The Hut's stream from Saturday night. We played about 7 games straight of Kung Lao vs Sektor. People are starting to call him Sektor of America since Ikizzle stopped playing

 

[YOMI DJT]

b3 on its own doesnt lead to anything big guaranteed. flametrhower is actually punished by ex spin. lao shouldnt teleport at all so he doesnt have to worry about it getting punished. youre not going to punish 21 often on whiff because of its speed range and recovery. if the lao player actually knows how to space 21, he wont get whiff punished for it at all. roll in can be canceled into spin which is a 50/50. because of this lao can throw you or start a string or poke you if you try that standing 1 jab. laos jab is still better because of its range. sektor can't punish 21212 on block well because standing 1 string doesnt have the range to do it, I asked it the other day in the sektor forums. also Ive been doing this for a while now but I really think lao players should do the ex hat combo with 112/21/24 startup because it will get you around 43% which means two combos in is win because the rest will be dealt with chip damage.


maybe youre right, but we both agree it is a manageable matchup.

yes lao still has options to beat low hitbox characters. he's not completely hopeless. a super manageable 6-4 like this means the player has to get the win. just being lao won't get you the win. got mix the pressure up good. think outside the box etc. A mu like this could easily look like a 5-5. that's interesting exspin? it that worth the meter? yeah b3 doesn't lead to anything but its neutral so the sek can see how lao handles pressure. that's right lao has to space the 21 right he can't do it too close. yeah he can roll then spin but the risk for that is huge vs sektor. sek can get and easy 40%. lao can do roll then 21 but sektor can punish as soon as the 2 whiffs. roll throw prolly the best option for lao I think. even if he can't punish 21212 he can start the neutral game with f2 see how the lao reacts. lao has to get some throws in to throw sektor off in this match. If sektor doesn't get thrown he can just block whatever lao throws out and punish if lao get out of control. But yeah the mu should be changed to 6-4 sek

 

[YOMI DJT]

Watch me vs Pimpimluigi, idk if you can find it on Pig Of The Hut's stream from Saturday night. We played about 7 games straight of Kung Lao vs Sektor. People are starting to call him Sektor of America since Ikizzle stopped playing

interesting i'll try and find it but I think sektor wins it.

 

[YOMI DJT]

What's the name of pig's stream again stream of the hut?

 

[Big Pampering]

yes lao still has options to beat low hitbox characters. he's not completely hopeless. a super manageable 6-4 like this means the player has to get the win. just being lao won't get you the win. got mix the pressure up good. think outside the box etc. A mu like this could easily look like a 5-5. that's interesting exspin? it that worth the meter? yeah b3 doesn't lead to anything but its neutral so the sek can see how lao handles pressure. that's right lao has to space the 21 right he can't do it too close. yeah he can roll then spin but the risk for that is huge vs sektor. sek can get and easy 40%. lao can do roll then 21 but sektor can punish as soon as the 2 whiffs. roll throw prolly the best option for lao I think. even if he can't punish 21212 he can start the neutral game with f2 see how the lao reacts. lao has to get some throws in to throw sektor off in this match. If sektor doesn't get thrown he can just block whatever lao throws out and punish if lao get out of control. But yeah the mu should be changed to 6-4 sek

ex spin is worth it imo, it is the differnce of getting 24% or no damage at all. if you do this the sektor player will have one safe tool less to use against kung lao. another thing I just started using recently is 24 hitconfirm into spin. it is stance specific but it is actually consistently hitconfirmable compared to 21 and has much better range. 24 spin is something any high level lao player should do.

BTW why the sudden interest in lao? your lao at dallas was pretty impressive and going by some stuff you say in this thread i can see you figured out a lot about lao in a short period of time. is he going to be your second?

 

[YOMI DJT]

ex spin is worth it imo, it is the differnce of getting 24% or no damage at all. if you do this the sektor player will have one safe tool less to use against kung lao. another thing I just started using recently is 24 hitconfirm into spin. it is stance specific but it is actually consistently hitconfirmable compared to 21 and has much better range. 24 spin is something any high level lao player should do.

BTW why the sudden interest in lao? your lao at dallas was pretty impressive and going by some stuff you say in this thread i can see you figured out a lot about lao in a short period of time. is he going to be your second?

yeah any damage is good. 24 interesting I might use that string more. I play a lot of character at a high lvl. Lao is one of them that i've known for a while but dont play him much in tournament. thanks I like lao as a character. I've been considering playing sonya too. Lao is actually really good for tournament too. Requires footsies read spacing etc. He's not just a tele around divekick free win character. Its easier to understand another character if you play them. I don't really come onto forums alot but I have lots of knowledge on every character.

 

[Big Pampering]

yeah any damage is good. 24 interesting I might use that string more. I play a lot of character at a high lvl. Lao is one of them that i've known for a while but dont play him much in tournament. thanks I like lao as a character. I've been considering playing sonya too. Lao is actually really good for tournament too. Requires footsies read spacing etc. He's not just a tele around divekick free win character. Its easier to understand another character if you play them. I don't really come onto forums alot but I have lots of knowledge on every character.

be careful with whiffing 24 though, it has a lot more recovery frames compared to 21.

 

[Axel_Redd]

i believe the night wolf matchup should be 7-3 in kung lao's favor, if lao knocks him down at point blank with say, 24 1+3. Kung Lao can f3 every one of his wake ups, if Nightwolf does ex shoulder, lao will be on the other side unscathed. Also Nightwolf cannot zone at all in the MU, no arrows, no lightning. Kung lao can punish arrows from full screen with his tele-3 (Dat startup). And as you all know kung lao can also interrupt Nigh....err Tombstones ex shoulder with 21 and full combo punish by ducking the first hit.

 

[Axel_Redd]

be careful with whiffing 24 though, it has a lot more recovery frames compared to 21.

Double Post!!!

IMO i think its too much work to have to constantly change ur stance to try and match the opponent all for the sake of landing a 24~spin.

 

[swiftNY2]

I'm constantly learning Kung and Kitana. Any tips on kung/kitana vs. reptile. I'm seriously open to suggestions.

 

[Big Pampering]

for people who dont think 24 hitconfirm spin is a good idea. its a 7 frame hitconfirmable with great range into full combo. youre not supposed to switch your stance constantly mid match and its not a replacement for 21 either, 21 is still your most used string. the way I do it and how it is supposed to be used imo is just pay attention to it mid match, if youre in the correct stance, you will have acces to 24 spin, if not just play your regular game. look at 24spin as an extra tool you occassionaly have acces to. also 24 x ray is NOT stance specific and leads to 52%!!

as a kung lao player you also need to be aware of which moves will switch your stance, for example f2 will make your stance switch. for opponents who are ignorant and mash anything but a neutral crouch move they usually eat the 24 overhead/21 follow up. if you pay attention to your stance you can follow up with 24 spin against ignorant oppponents. 24 spin is also great against johnny cage imo, if he happens to be in your face while you are in the right stance.

 

[Axel_Redd]

for people who dont think 24 hitconfirm spin is a good idea. its a 7 frame hitconfirmable with great range into full combo. youre not supposed to switch your stance constantly mid match and its not a replacement for 21 either, 21 is still your most used string. the way I do it and how it is supposed to be used imo is just pay attention to it mid match, if youre in the correct stance, you will have acces to 24 spin, if not just play your regular game. look at 24spin as an extra tool you occassionaly have acces to. also 24 x ray is NOT stance specific and leads to 52%!!

as a kung lao player you also need to be aware of which moves will switch your stance, for example f2 will make your stance switch. for opponents who are ignorant and mash anything but a neutral crouch move they usually eat the 24 overhead/21 follow up. if you pay attention to your stance you can follow up with 24 spin against ignorant oppponents. 24 spin is also great against johnny cage imo, if he happens to be in your face while you are in the right stance.

i know, but its too much work when im more focused on payin attention to other things honestly. the stance change idea was dumb....it should never have been reliant on stance. i usually use 24 spin in the corner tho.

 

[Chongo]

Watch me vs Pimpimluigi, idk if you can find it on Pig Of The Hut's stream from Saturday night. We played about 7 games straight of Kung Lao vs Sektor. People are starting to call him Sektor of America since Ikizzle stopped playing

Did Pimpuigi and PimPimJim do a fusion dance?

 

[Axel_Redd]

if there were 2 buffs kung lao should get i'd say 24~spin would always hit regardless of stance and low hat would be -7 on block but still only +2 on hit.

if he had that i'd be satisfied. the low hat would make low hitbox characters less of a problem

 

[Espio]

Talking about Kung Lao getting buffs <__< lol.

 

[Axel_Redd]

Kung Lao has no business getting buffs based on this match up chart lol.

those 2 buffs wouldn't change anything drastically. the stance specific crap is pretty dumb and pointless and having low hat be at least somewhat useful upclose again would at least give him more options. other than that he needs nothing else.

 

[Espio]

those 2 buffs wouldn't change anything drastically. the stance specific crap is pretty dumb and pointless and having low hat be at least somewhat useful upclose again would at least give him more options. other than that he needs nothing else.

There are characters that don't have half of his options, who could actually use buffs. Kung Lao is a character that doesn't need more tools.



Some characters have a hard enough time dealing with Kung Lao's pressure as it is without low hat being safer.

The low hat nerf was accompanied by him being BUFFED too mind you.

 

[Big Pampering]

Can you please look at his match up chart?


There are characters that don't have half of his options, do you realize what those buffs to make low hat safer could do against characters who already have a hard time dealing with him?

to be honest, low hat being -7 on block doesnt really matter that much upclose, he still has to play the same strategy and -7 will end his pressure completely. the problem is if you give him prepatch recovery back, he will have an immense footsie buff, kind of like how sonya uses her onion rings. low hat with that recover would be very good in so many matches making him without a doubt second best in the game, matches like jax, johnny cage, cyrax, subzero, reptile, sonya, mileena would be so much easier and he already wins half of these matchups.

 

[Espio]

to be honest, low hat being -7 on block doesnt really matter that much upclose, he still has to play the same strategy and -7 will end his pressure completely. the problem is if you give him prepatch recovery back, he will have an immense footsie buff, kind of like how sonya uses her onion rings. low hat with that recover would be very good in so many matches making him without a doubt second best in the game, matches like jax, johnny cage, cyrax, subzero, reptile, sonya, mileena would be so much easier and he already wins half of these matchups.

At -12, people can actually punish it for damage at close range is I guess why I'm making a fuss about it, especially compared to other people's low fireballs like Sindel's who are -15 on block, it seems perfectly fair to me to be that negative, especially when you think about Kung Lao's fast normals, mobility, safeness of his teleport mix ups on block etc.

Nobody outside of Reptile and Sektor could really even try to punish it at -7, yes his pressure would end, but it wouldn't be a huge deterrent like it being punishable for actual damage by a larger portion of the cast.

I agree overall on your points, particularly comparing it to Sonya's rings.

 

[Axel_Redd]

At -12, people can actually punish it for damage at close range is I guess why I'm making a fuss about it, especially compared to other people's low fireballs like Sindel's who are -15 on block, it seems perfectly fair to me.

Nobody outside of Reptile and Sektor could really even try to punish it at -7, yes his pressure would end, but it wouldn't be a huge deterrent like it being punishable for actual damage by a larger portion of the cast.

I agree overall and yes he definitely beats a lot of those characters pretty much without the buffs.

He might lose 4-6 to some people, but that's normal and very winnable match ups (like Kitana for example).

also causing his low hat to have slightly better recovery making it only -7 on block would make it a tad easier to zone with. Also its not like im saying buff kung lao and no one else lol. it would also give him a way to end 21212 without taking too much of a risk other than being caught in a blockstring or eating a throw or reptiles dash. he's still be at the disadvantage and be in pressure but without getting a severe punish so it still balances out. and the 24~spin stance change really needs to go xD

 

[ForeverKing]

Did Pimpuigi and PimPimJim do a fusion dance?

lol I always get their names confused