Kotal Kahn General Discussion

[-Nachtmahr-]

Can we make a thread for his frame data? I can't find the post where all frame datas were posted tbh

 

[Blade4693]

Hey guys, could somebody explain to be in depth how his command grab buff and parry work? I know the command grab gives you a damage buff and it can stack up to three times but I am wondering what changes if its ex? Does it jump to level 3 buff or is it just a stronger set of buffs?

And the parry? Is is just a damage buff? Can it stack?

Thanks

 

[Qwark28]

Just dumped some hour long vods in the video thread for anyone looking for gameplay.

 

[ColdSpine]

kotal mains which variation is the best so far, ascension or jaguar?

i find kahn cut so hard to pass up, is jaguar fine ? the only thing i liked is the air jaguar move since its fast and provides a way to close in on them

 

[DivineImpalerX]

Hey guys, could somebody explain to be in depth how his command grab buff and parry work? I know the command grab gives you a damage buff and it can stack up to three times but I am wondering what changes if its ex? Does it jump to level 3 buff or is it just a stronger set of buffs?

And the parry? Is is just a damage buff? Can it stack?

Thanks

Not a Kotal "Main" But the Command Grab gives you a overall damage buff ~10-15% with each stack (you can see this buff on the Tattoos glowing brighter) after x time you lose 1 stack. The Parry is a different Damage Buff (again will buff all your attacks- and you see it cuz his Hands start to glow) BUT it will only last arround 1-2 seconds (and damage is only increased in this short timeframe (so starting a Command Grab does not mean it will deal more damage for the entire duration.

 

[Qwark28]

It lasts 6-8 seconds or so. Not 1-2.

 

[smile]

am i tripping, or did moves like f4 and f34 never push the opponent back? could've swore they did.

 

[Qwark28]

am i tripping, or did moves like f4 and f34 never push the opponent back? could've swore they did.

Depends on how they're blocked. Crouch block has less pushback.

 

[smile]

so i'm tripping, add that to my list of mental issues. thanks qwark.

 

[Quiversan]

Okay, after a couple of days of labbing I think I can safely say that I think Kotal is dry as hell. I really can't make him work. RIP.

 

[younghou]

guys, they nerf kotal khan (LOL) d3 x command grab tick throw doesn't work anymore.

 

[Blade4693]

I really am trying to main Kotal but he seems to have such a hard time against almost like everybody. I admit I haven't played as many matches as most of you guys here and still don't know MUs but still, I feel like I am struggling a lot more than I do with say Baraka.

 

[Qwark28]

guys, they nerf kotal khan (LOL) d3 x command grab tick throw doesn't work anymore.

Doesn't matter, d3 cg was never used bc it was buggy as fuck. Good riddance.

 

[Skylight1]

So.... how are we opening up people with Kotal besides F3 and F2 because I know we're not doing F1 (high) and we're not doing 2 (also, a high) and B2 is something we could use but it's a high with slow start-up frames. I am REALLY having issues with him and as a dedicated main, I am trying my best but in all honesty, Baraka and even Jade can do more than he can .

Doesn't matter, d3 cg was never used bc it was buggy as fuck. Good riddance.

D3 xx command grab still works for me but I see the issue. It is so inconsistent that it makes me cringe. D1 is his better (and probably his only good tick into it because S1 is garbage and no one is going to block high for it.)

 

[Qwark28]

So.... how are we opening up people with Kotal besides F3 and F2 because I know we're not doing F1 (high) and we're not doing 2 (also, a high) and B2 is something we could use but it's a high with slow start-up frames. I am REALLY having issues with him and as a dedicated main, I am trying my best but in all honesty, Baraka and even Jade can do more than he can .


D3 xx command grab still works for me but I see the issue. It is so inconsistent that it makes me cringe. D1 is his better (and probably his only good tick into it because S1 is garbage and no one is going to block high for it.)

Footsies and command grab.

 

[Stuck]

Footsies and command grab.

I started focusing on footsies last night and it makes all the difference in the world. Don’t act desperate to get into F3 or F4 range all the time like I was. They are good but not the absolute goal. Toe and walk back F24 range until you see your opening. Once they get hit with that combo, it can help F3. If your footsies are too close F24s active frames come too late. Be careful. Better off using F12 or F3 for a combo outside those active frames of F24.

 

[Blade4693]

Yeah I played some more games tonight and I did do a little better when I was more focused on my spacing but I still feel like he has some general problems.

Like command grab shouldn't side switch, if we work to get our opponent in the corner should we really have to choose between throwing them out of it or max damage? Also maybe make it not throw them away as far?

Also disc throw could use a slightly (SLIGHTLY) faster start up. I have been getting absolutely blasted when it comes to the zoning so if that came out a bit faster OR if parry came out a bit faster it could help him survive those fights a little better IMO.

Again I don't or want him to be buffed to top 5/top 10, just some small QOL things.

 

[Qwark28]

Yeah I played some more games tonight and I did do a little better when I was more focused on my spacing but I still feel like he has some general problems.

Like command grab shouldn't side switch, if we work to get our opponent in the corner should we really have to choose between throwing them out of it or max damage? Also maybe make it not throw them away as far?

Also disc throw could use a slightly (SLIGHTLY) faster start up. I have been getting absolutely blasted when it comes to the zoning so if that came out a bit faster OR if parry came out a bit faster it could help him survive those fights a little better IMO.

Again I don't or want him to be buffed to top 5/top 10, just some small QOL things.

Disc is not meant to be used in projectile wars, it's meant to be used as a check after you block projectiles nearly fullscreen, as a KB threat. It's fine the way it is.

I feel like people need to stop asking for things which aren't clearly bad design choices before playing the character for at least a month, if you compiled all the complaints and post-100 match requests, you'd have kotal getting sun ray out after every combo, totem after every knockdown, F12 being mid, sun disc being a fast projectile, etc.

 

[Blade4693]

Disc is not meant to be used in projectile wars, it's meant to be used as a check after you block projectiles nearly fullscreen, as a KB threat. It's fine the way it is.

I feel like people need to stop asking for things which aren't clearly bad design choices before playing the character for at least a month, if you compiled all the complaints and post-100 match requests, you'd have kotal getting sun ray out after every combo, totem after every knockdown, F12 being mid, sun disc being a fast projectile, etc.

Yeah the KB threat is definitely there, but doesn't he get absolutely destroyed by good zoners? Would the parry buff be bad?

And yeah I agree about the second part which was why I said I don't want him buffed into top 10 or anything, I don't want a command grab meter burn to krushing blow into a pop that leads into sun ray set ups or anything insane like that lol

 

[Qwark28]

Yeah the KB threat is definitely there, but doesn't he get absolutely destroyed by good zoners? Would the parry buff be bad?

And yeah I agree about the second part which was why I said I don't want him buffed into top 10 or anything, I don't want a command grab meter burn to krushing blow into a pop that leads into sun ray set ups or anything insane like that lol

Define 'good zoners'.

Parry could definitely be slightly faster.

 

[Skylight1]

Define 'good zoners'.

Parry could definitely be slightly faster.

For instance, Johnny can freaking zone out Kotal and the trade isn't all that good if we're just focusing on the KB from the discus toss. Jade completely shuts him down fullscreen and in return she has immunity which allows her even more safety from fullscreen thus nullifying his KB. If anything, we need to be focusing on using DB4 at it's max range in order to check people and make them honest while on the ground after a 50/50.

Parry could be faster but with the way it's being used, the parry start-up frames should be perfectly fine for what it is right now. I assume we're all using it for pressure and making the unsafe strings not too unsafe.

They could make F2 faster.... Not asking for a 7F mid but at least give me some wiggle room when going up against Jax, Jacqui, Collector, Geras, and Liu Kang. Also, make B2 consistent for it's hitbox. I shouldn't have to worry about it completely whiffing B2 at max range when I'm doing a combo like jeez.

 

[Qwark28]

For instance, Johnny can freaking zone out Kotal and the trade isn't all that good if we're just focusing on the KB from the discus toss. Jade completely shuts him down fullscreen and in return she has immunity which allows her even more safety from fullscreen thus nullifying his KB. If anything, we need to be focusing on using DB4 at it's max range in order to check people and make them honest while on the ground after a 50/50.

Parry could be faster but with the way it's being used, the parry start-up frames should be perfectly fine for what it is right now. I assume we're all using it for pressure and making the unsafe strings not too unsafe.

They could make F2 faster.... Not asking for a 7F mid but at least give me some wiggle room when going up against Jax, Jacqui, Collector, Geras, and Liu Kang. Also, make B2 consistent for it's hitbox. I shouldn't have to worry about it completely whiffing B2 at max range when I'm doing a combo like jeez.

He doesn't zone you out. Throwing a projectile that's faster than yours does not mean zone you out.

Characters with air and ground projectiles zone you out. Not a random 18f high projectile. The trade is pretty good because your projectile knocks him down, his doesn't. You can wavedash 2-3 times as he's getting up and you may get a KB.

Sword quake is a complete gimmick at 41 frames. People will adjust to it, you can use it if you want free online wins for now, but it's just going to make you form bad habits, it's not worth using more than once every few games or when you've already lost the round.

F2 does not need to be faster. It reaches further than jump distance and converts into 330 damage while anti airing at the same time. You're not supposed to throw the move out willy nilly. If you have a problem against characters, grind the matchup for a few days, don't just ask for buffs just because you're losing on week 1.

You don't have to go 5-5 or beat every char on the roster, not that we would know anything like that this early into the game.

 

[Hor_PeT]

He doesn't zone you out. Throwing a projectile that's faster than yours does not mean zone you out.

Characters with air and ground projectiles zone you out. Not a random 18f high projectile. The trade is pretty good because your projectile knocks him down, his doesn't. You can wavedash 2-3 times as he's getting up and you may get a KB.

Sword quake is a complete gimmick at 41 frames. People will adjust to it, you can use it if you want free online wins for now, but it's just going to make you form bad habits, it's not worth using more than once every few games or when you've already lost the round.

F2 does not need to be faster. It reaches further than jump distance and converts into 330 damage while anti airing at the same time. You're not supposed to throw the move out willy nilly. If you have a problem against characters, grind the matchup for a few days, don't just ask for buffs just because you're losing on week 1.

You don't have to go 5-5 or beat every char on the roster, not that we would know anything like that this early into the game.

New Kotal is not easy to play compared to MKX (especially before B1 nerf lol). Who are used to Kotal's auto footsie F1 (and pretty strong F12 into armored command grab lol) will find him difficult to play of course if they want the same.
Even my MKX Kotal main friend gave up playing Kotal in MK11 as "it was not like he wanted and liked before".
No more 6F D1, D4, 114 plus string, 11F half screen MID.

By the way if the command grab is still not good for oki it is pretty frustrating as he can not keep the pressure. But I am sure it will be figured out.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

New Kotal is not easy to play compared to MKX (especially before B1 nerf lol). Who are used to Kotal's auto footsie F1 (and pretty strong F12 into armored command grab lol) will find him difficult to play of course if they want the same.
Even my MKX Kotal main friend gave up playing Kotal in MK11 as "it was not like he wanted and liked before".
No more 6F D1, D4, 114 plus string, 11F half screen MID.

By the way if the command grab is still not good for oki it is pretty frustrating as he can not keep the pressure. But I am sure it will be figured out.

I do miss Sun/Blood God but what I want the most is Safe Sunlight setups.
The safest setup for God Ray is B22 xx Kahn-cut, 34 xx Good Ray almost safe but 11f mid range moves can punish it.
It's the best I've found but B22 is unsafe af and very situational. The first hit is a high and slow af, Raiden and others with port can duck into teleport into full combo punish if they are ready for it.
If you space far enough to be safe B2 wiffs so it's not something you just throw out there especially in this meta of mids and D2 KBs but it's more of a tool used at the moment you are at that magical range which has it's uses and can be made safe with B223 if not Flawless Blocked.

His best tools by far is wiff punishing with F12 and F24 and both are hit confirmable which is a plus. The F34 is great mix-up between First and Second hit but can't be abused having a gap that can be FB'd.
F4 is great for pushback and a button check but opponent can crouch block to reduce pushback. If you find your self close up and they have faster starters and mids you can D1 tick throws or if you know they are going to counter poke your button check you can use parry but make sure they are not using a 2 or 3 hit normal cuz you will be in combo. The parry also gives a 10%ish buff similar to command grab but last about 6 seconds so parry has it's applications for counter pokes, gaining buff and making normals safe-ish.

D4 is one of his best tools used with walk back and F1/F2/F4. 34 even though it's a high can almost get sun ray out safe and also closes distance while being 0 on block and relatively fast, I like to wiff the high and have the knee come in hard allowing a quick Special Cancel of either Sword Pound(on block), Sun Ray (on hit), Parry on block, Raw to confuse.
His main game is conditioning opponent to respect x amount of hits so you can setup your string tools but the rest is footsie and range.

He is definitely hard to use and requires much more effort than the rest of the cast with little reward but he does look awesome.

 

[ColdSpine]

Guys what anti air are using for close jumps? does s1 even work?