Kotal Kahn General Discussion

[Slymind]

Well its my 2nd day back on the game and playing against Johnny Cages Outtake variation was an uphill battle. A fast, mid hitting projectile that cant be low profiled after 3/4 to full screen was annoying.

D3 and D4 was effective closer up and prevents Cage from advancing. Yeah you can parry from full screen but it still has pushback and wave dashing had me eating quite a few fireballs. I was using Buluc variation but for the life of me I cant understand why Kotals disc didnt remain a mid from MKX. Especially with how slow it is smh.

Projectile trades (when applicable) lead to knockdowns but the recovery time from the defense total guarantees you'll eat another. Might get "easier" once i get back into the game and up my reaction speed again.

Will upload my match footage (all those L's) against Kinetic_Orochi once it finishes.

Kotal wasn't trash before and he is definitely not now.

Also, Buluc is not an easy variation to handle. Totemic is the one for this matchup.

 

[Pterodactyl]

Well its my 2nd day back on the game and playing against Johnny Cages Outtake variation was an uphill battle. A fast, mid hitting projectile that cant be low profiled after 3/4 to full screen was annoying.

D3 and D4 was effective closer up and prevents Cage from advancing. Yeah you can parry from full screen but it still has pushback and wave dashing had me eating quite a few fireballs. I was using Buluc variation but for the life of me I cant understand why Kotals disc didnt remain a mid from MKX. Especially with how slow it is smh.

Projectile trades (when applicable) lead to knockdowns but the recovery time from the defense total guarantees you'll eat another. Might get "easier" once i get back into the game and up my reaction speed again.

Will upload my match footage (all those L's) against Kinetic_Orochi once it finishes.

It’s easy to forget but Kotal’s parry eats single hit projectiles and functions like flawless block in that you instantly recover if you correctly defend so even if he does amp forceball for two hits you can parry the first and block/duck the second.

Parry ever since it’s buff last patch has been pretty useful for getting in on zonin, and super clutch on oki.

Since this most current patch I’ve had a number times where I’m stomping someone in the corner, read their wake up with parry and then hit them with a parry buff + grab buff full combo.

And let me tell you, that shit HURTS.

 

[GetEmStretch]

Yeah, Blade, getting used to Buluc's gameplan takes time, as you're playing a mini game within the overall match.

Speaking of, GetEmStretch, two days back and playing a brand new variation and already saying that Kotal sucks? Seems a rather quick judgement, my friend.

Perhaps but there's still fundamental flaws that lie with this character specifically in THIS game in relation to how the rest of cast plays the META. Cant remember which Kotal thread or side thread I pointed out issues within the 1st week of playing and people were saying I was jumping the gun then. 3 weeks later those same players started pointing out those exact same flaws with their own threads pointing out the obvious.

But to each their own. I still say the character lacks a decent/respectable speed mid attack, not so much as an advancing one but enough to make players respect him up close. Insert here where someone says "he has far reaching/advancing mid" and I'll retort," well who doesn't and does it faster?" -- His F4 doesn't put the threat of eating significant damage as it doesn't lead to much and knocks the opponent full screen where Kotal has few options. I'll still contest that the character should have kept his slow startup disc projectile with the offset of it still being a mid as in MKX.

I'll grind out matches when I have free time but this is my assessment. Prove me otherwise, as I still respect a difference of opinion that has leverage

 

[GetEmStretch]

Kotal wasn't trash before and he is definitely not now.

Also, Buluc is not an easy variation to handle. Totemic is the one for this matchup.

Difference of opinion but to each their own. I'll easily agree he's better than before but hands down he was hot garbage at launch out till the 1st 90 days where I stopped playing all together.

Cant see how Totemic would be better as the recovery on healing is contingent upon damage dealt to the opponent. Aside from Ascension, opening people up is statistically less consistent unless your opponent is reckless, over aggressive, or lacks matchup knowledge. Maybe because cat can absorb a projectile/hit when MB or as a counterhit? - I'll reconsider that

 

[GetEmStretch]

It’s easy to forget but Kotal’s parry eats single hit projectiles and functions like flawless block in that you instantly recover if you correctly defend so even if he does amp forceball for two hits you can parry the first and block/duck the second.

Parry ever since it’s buff last patch has been pretty useful for getting in on zonin, and super clutch on oki.

Since this most current patch I’ve had a number times where I’m stomping someone in the corner, read their wake up with parry and then hit them with a parry buff + grab buff full combo.

And let me tell you, that shit HURTS.

In that match video I did parry a few full screen projectiles and tried to duck the 2nd hit when MB. -- It can't be done because of the arc. After rewatching I should have flawless blocked the 2nd hit when amplified. I realized near the mid to end that D3 was the better low profile due to recovery as opposed to D4 which was best served in the mid range as opposed to 3/4's to fullscreen.

But I agree that parrying a wakeup hits hard. Had a few nonrecorded match ups while using Ascension that I did that and the command grab stack + parry buff was oh so sexy!

 

[Blade4693]

Yeah, Blade, getting used to Buluc's gameplan takes time, as you're playing a mini game within the overall match.

Yeah I decided to play it exclusively the past day or so in KL and something about it is very satisfying lol

Getting the totems out can be rough and like you said you are kind of adding a whole extra layer to your gameplan to get the most out of it but once you get it and that damage starts stacking up its so nice lol

 

[Lanqu]

Had 40 matches yesterday with Dock (one of the most top rated players in times of MKX in Russia). Ended up loosing 10-30. I know that he is better player then me, but he is not even actively playing in mk11 but I am. And we used to play the same level... So taking out cases where I was mixed up or being read.. Here what I have to say.
He was playing Cassie with a 'Shoulder' and I was playing Kotal Buluc.
First 10 games were pretty even. Until he spotted that only way to be opened up by kotal is to get hit by f24 from the distance. Upclose everything I was able to do is d3 (8 frames). And vs his 9fr hitconfirmable launcher that was always a loose-loose situation upclose. I'm making good calls on FB and successfull FB'd his mids but then he started to throw me or use autoshimmy strings or delay mid for a few frames (in that case that means me eating a full combo, because good luck NRS FBing 9fr hit staggerable mid). Because we were playing offline I can't go fo staggers, because you know - he at worst he can poke out on reaction, at best he trades or get a full combo. Cassie's 11fr mid covers at least 1 kotal's backdash.. So even if I have some pushback for example like after blocked b223 I can't backdash, I have to block.
The funny thing starts at the corner, when due to pushback d3 doesn't reach. f4 on hit doesn't provide good advatantage to setup a ray or totem (if you f4 -> Totem, opponent can stand up and full combo punish you, at least Cassie can). And unblockable earthshake with sword worked only like once per 1-2 game. Otherwise he was just jumping over me and full combo punish. Looks like it is pretty reactable even after f3 (or f24) on hit.
Even when cassie does her -8 string there is nothing I can do against because she always can opt for a poke and only hitconfirmable scary shit I have is f24 (b22 even not hitting Cassie's block)
I don't want to say that Kotal is weak or downplay him. But good luck, hit confirming pokes into -9 high launcher without any mixup in it. You have to mistime it once to eat FB uppercut that nullifies all the damage you've done with your poke+jail string. It's never a risk reward in Kotal;s favour though it's such on paper.
Overall on paper Kotal (Buluc at least) looks great. But each time opponent guesses right, he at least get our for free (poke into mid, poke into jump) or full combo punish you.
I've recorder some of the latest matches from the set https://www.twitch.tv/videos/490972697.
Today I've also watched Coach Steve's Kotal Buluc vs Grr's Geras (

)
It identifies the same issue, after Steve won 2 first matches and spend all his gimmicks he was completely reversed 6-0 by Grr. Grr as Geras was even spamming those pokes at the end of the battle because he learned that Kotal can do nothing in response.
On paper Kotal is really great. Because on FB he can launch anything with his super hitbox on u2. On paper he can Parry anything on read, then react on follow up and FB u2 it, or just pure punish it... Or he can poke out and hitconfirm in no meter high launcher if Opponent is pressing buttons during hit stun (why worthy opponent would press anything during hit stun??? better try FB this, right?) but that just doesn't work as intended vs opponent who knows what he are doing.
Freaking mids fucksup everything Kotal has upclose and even at semi-mid range.

 

[Tony at Home]

Went into Bulac all hype for the totems.

But amplified Yeyecame Disk is what makes me really not want to stop playing this variation. It's so good with 22 and F24 on block. Might as well consider myself at + frames for the amount of pushback and distance it leaves me at

 

[Jeffrey Wolf]

Look at all this action on the Kotal forums!

Perhaps but there's still fundamental flaws that lie with this character specifically in THIS game in relation to how the rest of cast plays the META. Cant remember which Kotal thread or side thread I pointed out issues within the 1st week of playing and people were saying I was jumping the gun then. 3 weeks later those same players started pointing out those exact same flaws with their own threads pointing out the obvious.

But to each their own. I still say the character lacks a decent/respectable speed mid attack, not so much as an advancing one but enough to make players respect him up close. Insert here where someone says "he has far reaching/advancing mid" and I'll retort," well who doesn't and does it faster?" -- His F4 doesn't put the threat of eating significant damage as it doesn't lead to much and knocks the opponent full screen where Kotal has few options. I'll still contest that the character should have kept his slow startup disc projectile with the offset of it still being a mid as in MKX.

I'll grind out matches when I have free time but this is my assessment. Prove me otherwise, as I still respect a difference of opinion that has leverage

Prove it? Sure. Check out the recent Blink Fighting Fest where Kotal won pre-patch, or post patch all the Kotal's on the KL leader boards where before there were almost none, or my YouTube where I break down how to win with him. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. Lots of proof/tech out there to find, and there's going to be a lot more as people dig into this recent patch.

 

[Jeffrey Wolf]

Yeah I decided to play it exclusively the past day or so in KL and something about it is very satisfying lol

Getting the totems out can be rough and like you said you are kind of adding a whole extra layer to your gameplan to get the most out of it but once you get it and that damage starts stacking up its so nice lol

Yeah, I think using Buluc is really MU dependent because of this (i.e. he's best against characters that can't threaten full screen, which gives him a chance to setup). In those matches though, I think he can work really well. And, if you play all 3 variations, you have an answer to almost everything, which is really cool.

 

[Jeffrey Wolf]

Went into Bulac all hype for the totems.

But amplified Yeyecame Disk is what makes me really not want to stop playing this variation. It's so good with 22 and F24 on block. Might as well consider myself at + frames for the amount of pushback and distance it leaves me at

Yup, my favorite part, too. Though, I really wish that there wasn't a flawless block gap. Due to it, at the highest levels, we'll really have to mix up F2/F24/F1/F12~MB Disk. But for now it's a total get out of jail free card, lol.

 

[Jeffrey Wolf]

Had 40 matches yesterday with Dock (one of the most top rated players in times of MKX in Russia). Ended up loosing 10-30. I know that he is better player then me, but he is not even actively playing in mk11 but I am. And we used to play the same level... So taking out cases where I was mixed up or being read.. Here what I have to say.
He was playing Cassie with a 'Shoulder' and I was playing Kotal Buluc.
First 10 games were pretty even. Until he spotted that only way to be opened up by kotal is to get hit by f24 from the distance. Upclose everything I was able to do is d3 (8 frames). And vs his 9fr hitconfirmable launcher that was always a loose-loose situation upclose. I'm making good calls on FB and successfull FB'd his mids but then he started to throw me or use autoshimmy strings or delay mid for a few frames (in that case that means me eating a full combo, because good luck NRS FBing 9fr hit staggerable mid). Because we were playing offline I can't go fo staggers, because you know - he at worst he can poke out on reaction, at best he trades or get a full combo. Cassie's 11fr mid covers at least 1 kotal's backdash.. So even if I have some pushback for example like after blocked b223 I can't backdash, I have to block.
The funny thing starts at the corner, when due to pushback d3 doesn't reach. f4 on hit doesn't provide good advatantage to setup a ray or totem (if you f4 -> Totem, opponent can stand up and full combo punish you, at least Cassie can). And unblockable earthshake with sword worked only like once per 1-2 game. Otherwise he was just jumping over me and full combo punish. Looks like it is pretty reactable even after f3 (or f24) on hit.
Even when cassie does her -8 string there is nothing I can do against because she always can opt for a poke and only hitconfirmable scary shit I have is f24 (b22 even not hitting Cassie's block)
I don't want to say that Kotal is weak or downplay him. But good luck, hit confirming pokes into -9 high launcher without any mixup in it. You have to mistime it once to eat FB uppercut that nullifies all the damage you've done with your poke+jail string. It's never a risk reward in Kotal;s favour though it's such on paper.
Overall on paper Kotal (Buluc at least) looks great. But each time opponent guesses right, he at least get our for free (poke into mid, poke into jump) or full combo punish you.
I've recorder some of the latest matches from the set https://www.twitch.tv/videos/490972697.
Today I've also watched Coach Steve's Kotal Buluc vs Grr's Geras (

)
It identifies the same issue, after Steve won 2 first matches and spend all his gimmicks he was completely reversed 6-0 by Grr. Grr as Geras was even spamming those pokes at the end of the battle because he learned that Kotal can do nothing in response.
On paper Kotal is really great. Because on FB he can launch anything with his super hitbox on u2. On paper he can Parry anything on read, then react on follow up and FB u2 it, or just pure punish it... Or he can poke out and hitconfirm in no meter high launcher if Opponent is pressing buttons during hit stun (why worthy opponent would press anything during hit stun??? better try FB this, right?) but that just doesn't work as intended vs opponent who knows what he are doing.
Freaking mids fucksup everything Kotal has upclose and even at semi-mid range.

A lot to discuss here, let me try to hit the highlights:

1) Kotal is very MU dependent. For example, playing Ascension against Cetrion is terrible, but if you use Totemic it switches from a losing MU to a winning one. On the flip side, against Scorpion Totemic is terrible because Scorpion can punish any Totem or Kat escape. However, using Ascension makes it very manageable because when Scorpion over commits you do big damage. Against Geras, Buluc is an awful pick because, like Scorpion, he can punish any of Buluc's Totem's which you see Grr do a lot. Steve should have used Ascension for better up close game (which is inevitable against Geras) or Totemic to punish sand used at midscreen or when jumping.

2) It is true that some characters in this game get to skip over a part of the meta because they have fast mids. Kotal, however, has different strengths, for example, being able to start a combo string from a range that most other characters can't attack from. Being up close with Kotal is not his optimum range, unless you're playing Ascension. If you aren't playing Ascension, you need to use pokes into jails. This is why the recent buff to D3 is such a big deal (i.e. being +13 means you can jail or frame trap into almost anything you want). If you're playing Ascension, this is where tick throws are key or punishing the opponent when they jump to escape your tick throw.

3) Steve is a solid player but he isn't a Kotal main. He dropped him before the first big patch and only really picked him back up after this second one. Grr on the other hand has been playing Geras this whole time. The fact that Steve is new to Kotal is evidenced by his game play. He's used to playing Jacqui who has a fast mid and so he tried to recreate that with Kotal by often using F1 at close range, which is not a good idea. He almost never used pokes to jail into strings, as I mentioned above. Plus, as I said, he should never have picked Buluc. Lastly, while Steve is quite good, he gets tilted when he starts to lose (I say this from experience having played Marvel with him and friends back in the day), so it's not surprising to see him get reversed 3-0. That said, I hope he keeps playing Kotal, as it would be hype to watch someone who is regularly able to attend tournaments play a character I love.

Hope this helps!

 

[Blade4693]

my YouTube where I break down how to win with him.

You got a link? I am always down to watch and see if I can learn something new!

 

[Jeffrey Wolf]

You got a link? I am always down to watch and see if I can learn something new!

Sure thing: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1F3HXkmkiBb9xetVlLW9_w

 

[Qwark28]

It’s easy to forget but Kotal’s parry eats single hit projectiles and functions like flawless block in that you instantly recover if you correctly defend so even if he does amp forceball for two hits you can parry the first and block/duck the second.

Parry ever since it’s buff last patch has been pretty useful for getting in on zonin, and super clutch on oki.

Since this most current patch I’ve had a number times where I’m stomping someone in the corner, read their wake up with parry and then hit them with a parry buff + grab buff full combo.

And let me tell you, that shit HURTS.

Successful parry still has recovery, some strings punish it.

Perhaps but there's still fundamental flaws that lie with this character specifically in THIS game in relation to how the rest of cast plays the META. Cant remember which Kotal thread or side thread I pointed out issues within the 1st week of playing and people were saying I was jumping the gun then. 3 weeks later those same players started pointing out those exact same flaws with their own threads pointing out the obvious.

But to each their own. I still say the character lacks a decent/respectable speed mid attack, not so much as an advancing one but enough to make players respect him up close. Insert here where someone says "he has far reaching/advancing mid" and I'll retort," well who doesn't and does it faster?" -- His F4 doesn't put the threat of eating significant damage as it doesn't lead to much and knocks the opponent full screen where Kotal has few options. I'll still contest that the character should have kept his slow startup disc projectile with the offset of it still being a mid as in MKX.

I'll grind out matches when I have free time but this is my assessment. Prove me otherwise, as I still respect a difference of opinion that has leverage

Kotal has the fastest and longest reaching mid normal in the entire game. Period.

Solid pokes, solid anti airs, above average damage, very good normals for footsies, easy conversions, 3rd best JIK in the game, longest J1 in the game.

Ascension doesn't need a mid, he frametraps into a mid command grab. Other variations can do d3 on hit into f12 jail. Few chars in this game have both good and fast mids. It can't be a fundamental flaw if only 4 chars out of 20+ have 9f mids.

He has no other serious flaws.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

And 3 actually usable variations.

Though that B22 whiff at max distance gets people killed!

 

[Tony at Home]

Is there anyone else other than Sub Zero who can punish Damage Totem after F4 on hit?

 

[Tony at Home]

RE: cage matchup

That MU against Showstopper feels bad. Not unmanageable but still difficult with all three variations (I prefer Buluc here slightly).

There's just no distance Johnny isn't comfortable at in the MU. I feel like I'm on the defensive constantly

 

[Qwark28]

RE: cage matchup

That MU against Showstopper feels bad. Not unmanageable but still difficult with all three variations (I prefer Buluc here slightly).

There's just no distance Johnny isn't comfortable at in the MU. I feel like I'm on the defensive constantly

The matchup with ascension and buluc is even.

It used to be 6-4 in johnnys favor because of his fireballs, pressure, b34 and the fact that everything you did on block ended up at point blank and - while everything he did left him in a range where he can still play footsies.

Now F2 is faster, we can jail from our pokes, we have corner pressure and are all around a better character. I'd say kotal goes even with every variation of johnny except outtake.

Even though his S1 is 3rd best AA jab in the game, your JK just before the apex of your jump beats it, into 280+ damage.

 

[Lanqu]

Thank you guys for details explanations. Especially about different MUs. That's pretty obvious, but a good point that I completely agree. You have to use correct variation when playing Kotal. But that usually means you will be at a great disadvantage when playing ranked or any ft3, because you'll loose first game and only then you can change variation to at least be able to compete at the same MU level. Why you'd pick Kotal Kahn for tournament if he looses already during character pick screen?
But my point is that jailing into highs is NOT a solution for upclose game for other variations besides Accession. Why? Because even my slowpoke reaction allows easy FB when opponent goes for jailing into highs. And that means death for Kotal vs high level opponent who knows how to FBu2. IMHO, Accession is also vulnerable to FBu2 but it at least has stable launcher converter that makes risk-reward more or less even. Knowing, that there is no scary mid but only jail options, takes out significant layer of game, because now you only need to option select FBu2 each time you get hit by a kotal's poke and after hit stun mash a poke. That is it. All gameplan against Kotal upclose.
This is an issue for me. Because I can't scare my opponent even when opp is at -10 (assuming it's not too close where standing 1 reaches). What kotal can do to scary them from pressing poke buttons? 19fr hitconrimable mid is too slow to catch a poke in that case. You can even eat a full combo instead making trying to reach with f2.
> It can't be a fundamental flaw if only 4 chars out of 20+ have 9f mids.
You said it is not a flaw when only 4 chars have 9fr mids. But you can see, that char should have something hitconfirmable around at least 16fr to discourage people from pressing buttons in that case. And tell me now, how many chars in the game doesn't have a mid, that can't cover such situation?
And I'm not mentioning that MOST of the cast has safe strings that end in -3~-5 fr only!
> Is there anyone else other than Sub Zero who can punish Damage Totem after F4 on hit?
I've success punishing this setup as Cassie both with a shoulder special in 2nd variation and with a high NORMAL into full combo if I dash in after eating f4. This makes me think other characters can do the same.
Overall true, Kotal has lots of good tools, that are great in certain cases. But he has no answer for a general mk11 mechanics, that are poke battle into mids into throws. You can bully people with cancels into totems or disc. A few times. But then you forced to go back to basics. And basics sucks because of the math above. Lets be honest, Kotal is fun. And games are winnable. But risk vs reward for everything kotal does is too high in comparison with others.

 

[Qwark28]

Thank you guys for details explanations. Especially about different MUs. That's pretty obvious, but a good point that I completely agree. You have to use correct variation when playing Kotal. But that usually means you will be at a great disadvantage when playing ranked or any ft3, because you'll loose first game and only then you can change variation to at least be able to compete at the same MU level. Why you'd pick Kotal Kahn for tournament if he looses already during character pick screen?
But my point is that jailing into highs is NOT a solution for upclose game for other variations besides Accession. Why? Because even my slowpoke reaction allows easy FB when opponent goes for jailing into highs. And that means death for Kotal vs high level opponent who knows how to FBu2. IMHO, Accession is also vulnerable to FBu2 but it at least has stable launcher converter that makes risk-reward more or less even. Knowing, that there is no scary mid but only jail options, takes out significant layer of game, because now you only need to option select FBu2 each time you get hit by a kotal's poke and after hit stun mash a poke. That is it. All gameplan against Kotal upclose.
This is an issue for me. Because I can't scare my opponent even when opp is at -10 (assuming it's not too close where standing 1 reaches). What kotal can do to scary them from pressing poke buttons? 19fr hitconrimable mid is too slow to catch a poke in that case. You can even eat a full combo instead making trying to reach with f2.
> It can't be a fundamental flaw if only 4 chars out of 20+ have 9f mids.
You said it is not a flaw when only 4 chars have 9fr mids. But you can see, that char should have something hitconfirmable around at least 16fr to discourage people from pressing buttons in that case. And tell me now, how many chars in the game doesn't have a mid, that can't cover such situation?
And I'm not mentioning that MOST of the cast has safe strings that end in -3~-5 fr only!
> Is there anyone else other than Sub Zero who can punish Damage Totem after F4 on hit?
I've success punishing this setup as Cassie both with a shoulder special in 2nd variation and with a high NORMAL into full combo if I dash in after eating f4. This makes me think other characters can do the same.
Overall true, Kotal has lots of good tools, that are great in certain cases. But he has no answer for a general mk11 mechanics, that are poke battle into mids into throws. You can bully people with cancels into totems or disc. A few times. But then you forced to go back to basics. And basics sucks because of the math above. Lets be honest, Kotal is fun. And games are winnable. But risk vs reward for everything kotal does is too high in comparison with others.

I'm not gonna specifically answer to every little point because your posts are a pain in the ass to read, without paragraphs or even double spaced, but I'm going to say I 99% can tell you're playing vs better players and not on a medium level even.

You're playing theory fighter for 99% of your arguments. Play the game more, get a couple hundred hours in the game with the character ( or more if you already have ) and things will be more clear. Some things you mention are not possible just because of the rules of the game itself.

People are playing ascension on the highest current level and not running into most of what you're saying. Think a little bit that most of what you said applies to 80% of this game's chars. It's not kotal specific. And you're completely ignoring the strong points of ascension, the command grab.

 

[Jeffrey Wolf]

Thank you guys for details explanations. Especially about different MUs. That's pretty obvious, but a good point that I completely agree. You have to use correct variation when playing Kotal. But that usually means you will be at a great disadvantage when playing ranked or any ft3, because you'll loose first game and only then you can change variation to at least be able to compete at the same MU level. Why you'd pick Kotal Kahn for tournament if he looses already during character pick screen?
But my point is that jailing into highs is NOT a solution for upclose game for other variations besides Accession. Why? Because even my slowpoke reaction allows easy FB when opponent goes for jailing into highs. And that means death for Kotal vs high level opponent who knows how to FBu2. IMHO, Accession is also vulnerable to FBu2 but it at least has stable launcher converter that makes risk-reward more or less even. Knowing, that there is no scary mid but only jail options, takes out significant layer of game, because now you only need to option select FBu2 each time you get hit by a kotal's poke and after hit stun mash a poke. That is it. All gameplan against Kotal upclose.
This is an issue for me. Because I can't scare my opponent even when opp is at -10 (assuming it's not too close where standing 1 reaches). What kotal can do to scary them from pressing poke buttons? 19fr hitconrimable mid is too slow to catch a poke in that case. You can even eat a full combo instead making trying to reach with f2.
> It can't be a fundamental flaw if only 4 chars out of 20+ have 9f mids.
You said it is not a flaw when only 4 chars have 9fr mids. But you can see, that char should have something hitconfirmable around at least 16fr to discourage people from pressing buttons in that case. And tell me now, how many chars in the game doesn't have a mid, that can't cover such situation?
And I'm not mentioning that MOST of the cast has safe strings that end in -3~-5 fr only!
> Is there anyone else other than Sub Zero who can punish Damage Totem after F4 on hit?
I've success punishing this setup as Cassie both with a shoulder special in 2nd variation and with a high NORMAL into full combo if I dash in after eating f4. This makes me think other characters can do the same.
Overall true, Kotal has lots of good tools, that are great in certain cases. But he has no answer for a general mk11 mechanics, that are poke battle into mids into throws. You can bully people with cancels into totems or disc. A few times. But then you forced to go back to basics. And basics sucks because of the math above. Lets be honest, Kotal is fun. And games are winnable. But risk vs reward for everything kotal does is too high in comparison with others.

What Qwark said, and also what I replied to Stretch before. Post patch there's tons of info out there if you want to see how Kotal's are winning, from watching tournaments (like you're starting to--keep in mind that Steve got 2nd his first real go with the new Kotal), match videos in Kombat League (just search for top Kotal's with good records, or people's YouTube channels (I have two videos about how to win with Totemic--not sure how I can help you more than that).

I've been a low tier hero in fighting games before, and that wasn't the case for Totemic after the 1st big patch, and it's definitely not the case for Ascension and Buluc after the 2nd. Kotal just has a different style, but one that is very viable in 11's meta. You'll get there if you practice and analyze matches of people who are winning with him. All the best with it.

 

[Jeffrey Wolf]

RE: cage matchup

That MU against Showstopper feels bad. Not unmanageable but still difficult with all three variations (I prefer Buluc here slightly).

There's just no distance Johnny isn't comfortable at in the MU. I feel like I'm on the defensive constantly

If his new zoning is giving you trouble, I recommend you try Totemic, though, as Qwark said, I think, with practice, Ascension and Buluc can work, too.

 

[Vhozite]

Hey yall does the Totemic amped panther lunge actually have armor? I keep trying to armor through projectiles and im getting stuffed almost every time.

 

[Ram]

Hey yall does the Totemic amped panther lunge actually have armor? I keep trying to armor through projectiles and im getting stuffed almost every time.

Not armor, but projectile immunity which becomes active after frame 10 or so, and so it doesn't happen immediately