General/Other - Kotal Kahn Kotal Kahn General Discussion

[stealthychainsawninja]

i tested 4 df1 whiff vs kotal. blocking kotal doing d1 after. attacking kotal beats it with d1 (5 f) and trades with d3 (6f)

did a similar process with 114

Went into the lab again. First, rechecked whether or not all moves cancel on the first active frame by looking at their animations; some of them look like they cancel a lot later than their first active frame, but I guess I can't be sure just looking at them, right?

Second, looked at numbers for other strings; your math doesn't work for f34. It would be -7 by your math, yet it can be punished by at least 10-frame normals (Kotal standing 2). It doesn't work for f1b2 either; your math would indeed make it -8, yet it can be punished by at least 13-frame normals (Johnny Cage standing 3). Your math would also make b12~df1 whiff -9, but it can be punished by at least 14-frame normals (Erron Black b2). Not going to bother testing others; it doesn't work.

Third, redid the jump test. 4 is close enough to neutral that it is very easy to tell that 4~df1 whiff has the attacking Kotal jumping later. (They jump at the same height after df1~whiff)

Lastly, though an unreliable test for this, recorded and rerecorded Kotal Kahn doing 4~df1 whiff, d1 on block and tried poking out with Kotal's d1. On the second try, got a recording that after many attempts at using d1 to poke out of, the best I could manage was a trade. Rerecorded Kotal several more times, but could not get a tighter blockstring. As I understand it, it takes a frame to leave the blocking animation unless you reversal special, throw, or backdash, so this would imply that 4~df1 whiff is -1 by the game's frame data standards, which is also supported by the jump test having both Kotals at the same height.

I'm gonna make a post mentioning the airgrab whiff in Understanding Frame Data thread while asking about specifics in a few minutes regardless, as there's some things I'm obviously still unclear about with regard to the frame data in this game.

 

[delbuster]

yeah, the math doesn't work out for other moves. i am pretty sure 4-df1whiff is +1 and 114-df1whiff is +5 vs normals though based on the tests i did, but honestly whenever it's an NRS game frame data gets super wonky.

 

[TrembleGoose]

sun or god ray their ass as soon as u block their projectile or duck is( duck without blocking to completely avoid projectiles. The sun ray( GOD RAY for moooooore damage) is unblockable damage overtime
that they can't avoid if theyre just spamming you from far just set a sun ray at full screen and db3 to catch them if they try to avoid the sun ray.

\

Sun ray startup is way to slow to do as a counter to some projectiles, Lady Briggs' machine gun projectile being a perfect example. Problem is, a good zoner will account for the areas sun ray covers, and will position accordingly. It's not even close to being a good answer for solid zoning.

 

[Khaoz77]

I pretty much use Sun Ray if my opponent is about to die. It's actually pretty clutch when you know where to position it in regards to how your opponent plays.

 

[stealthychainsawninja]

\

Sun ray startup is way to slow to do as a counter to some projectiles, Lady Briggs' machine gun projectile being a perfect example. Problem is, a good zoner will account for the areas sun ray covers, and will position accordingly. It's not even close to being a good answer for solid zoning.

This seems like a silly idea, but perhaps against some characters, you can god ray yourself, eat the hit from a projectile during your recovery, and sit in the god ray, whiffing airgrabs during their projectile recovery to build meter while gaining health back from the god ray?

 

[Tomo009]

I do throw up god rays sometimes, like after blocking a long range ermac special for example.

Other than that it seems almost impossible to get out really at all unless you sacrifice knockdown pressure after a combo.

 

[Pterodactyl]

Sun Ray and EX Sun Ray have saved my ass more that a few times with healing.

One of my favorite counter zoning moves in any fighting game.

 

[Tomo009]

the startup though, if the EX version had a hit of armour, that would be interesting. Or just faster startup, that would help.

I've also nevere deliberately used blood sacrifice at all, isn't the ridiculous startup time enough for the meagre damage boost (which usually amount to very little in a fighting game anyway)? Do we really need to lose 10% health too?

Oh well, War God has plenty of tools, a couple of... interesting moves don't bother me.

 

[Khaoz77]

the startup though, if the EX version had a hit of armour, that would be interesting. Or just faster startup, that would help.

I've also nevere deliberately used blood sacrifice at all, isn't the ridiculous startup time enough for the meagre damage boost (which usually amount to very little in a fighting game anyway)? Do we really need to lose 10% health too?

Oh well, War God has plenty of tools, a couple of... interesting moves don't bother me.

It's pretty good if you have the life lead. You can do hella damage and possibly kill if you have meter. Also, it lasts forever until you use 3 moves, so you lose 10% and you can just wait for your opportunity to strike.

 

[stealthychainsawninja]

Maybe someone posted this already, but I found a neat little gimmick in Sun God.

b12xxdb2

How are you getting b12 xx db2 to let the grab work on block? It whiffs on block on the several characters I've tried it on, just like all the other normals he can cancel into grab.

Also, since you asked, just setting the dummy to reversal, it seems there's only a gap in b122 before the last 2 if it is crouch-blocked, meaning it's either a 1 or 2-frame gap since b122 has 3 active frames.

EDIT: Whether there is a gap or not is character-dependent; Ferra/Torr has no reversal opportunity on crouch-block either, for example.

EDIT 2: Actually, how are you getting a gap between b1 and 2? Really confused.

EDIT 3: don't know what I was thinking when I wrote what I struck through. Made no sense (d1, d3, d4, 1, b1, and b14 all let Kotal db2 on block).

 

[stealthychainsawninja]

Regarding the whiffed throw: I'm running it back with more characters now. Will edit with results when done. I should be good just setting the practice AI to Block: stance and testing standing and ducking, right?

Regarding the gap between b1 and 2, during the initial testing I set subzero to reversal backdash and he would peace out before the second hit. Mileena would try to dash out after the b1. I dunno man.

Uh... do you perhaps not have the Day 1 patch? Can't think of anything else really. But yeah, NRS games are often inconsistent with hitboxes due to idle animations, stance switch, etc., so I can't really say if those dummy settings will catch everything, but just checking stand/crouch should catch most situations at least. Distance might also be relevant.

 

[Tomo009]

Guys I found something a little silly in War God.

I tested the safety on db3[8], it seems to be about -6 or -7, but I haven tested exactly and I'm bad at doing that stuff. I know however that it seems to not be throw punishable.

This is important because...

OS TIME

string xx db3~1+2

What does this do?

On block > you get db3 and can cancel it safely or let it rip.
On hit > EX overhead for a full combo!

Silly OS like this are gonna start popping up everywhere, I bet a lot of characters have really useful ones.

I don't feel this is as strong as Sub's, but about -6, -7 is still pretty safe for us, off any cancellable string.

EDIT: Does anyone know how this works? Why is this a valid EX overhead input, I don't get it at all.

EDIT2: KANO UPBALL CAN'T PUNISH THIS

Now I'm getting kinda excited guys.

EDIT3: It is -5, Kung Lao EX spin can punish it

 

[ahg1992]

Uh... do you perhaps not have the Day 1 patch? .

I wouldn't think so, but it's possible. I'm on the XB1 and it lets me play online, but I don't recall ever downloading 1.8GB after the initial pre-load.
Is there any way for me to check/manually re-download it on XB1?

 

[DeathandGrim]

What do you guys think is Kotal Kahn's best AA normal is besides d2?

I think his d2 is really good because it has lightning fast startup, but when I'm able to really predict and get a read on a jump, and have time to AA with a normal move that could lead into some more damage, I'd definitely like to do that.

Forward 1 has a deceptively large hitbox with little recovery and leaves the opponent open to be combo'd.
Uh nevermind that. His grab is good enough.
Follow ups I haven't tested yet.

But can someone please tell me why they prefer War God?? I like it but I am attracted to the oppressive playstyle of Sun God. It gives you a lot of options to scare people into letting you grab them.

 

[WarriorOfSunlight]

Maybe someone posted this already, but I found a neat little gimmick in Sun God.

b12xxdb2
So if the character blocks b12, you land the grab
If the character doesn't block, you launch with the second hit and cancel into the grab.
Depending on the backdash of the character, they can backdash out after the b1.
Tested it on subzero and he got out by backdashing b1.


If they have a somewhat meh backdash, the string will continue as if the grab weren't inputted and you'll catch them with the third hit as if you'd input the b122 string (tested on mileena)
Only thing I haven't tested for these characters is what happens if the opponent backdashes after the second hit of b12 since I'm god-awful at programming practice mode bots. I'd imagine it causes the throw to whiff and would make this setup punishable.

In any case more testing is probably necessary from people that actually know their shit (not me).

B12~sun choke does not land if the opponent blocks, it whiffs and leaves you at a big disadvantage. I think you're using an unpatched game if it does for you but how it is now, I'm 100% sure it doesn't work. Ive tested it, even on subzero just right now, to see if maybe the most recent patch changed it. B12 doesn't leave the opponent grounded. B1~sun choke still works though. I've been using sun god since launch and it has never worked for me.

 

[ahg1992]

snip

Alright thanks. Good to have another person confirm that my game is all kinds of wack. Deleting those posts now.
Hopefully this new patch fixes my problem. I was just doing it to players online though. I'm guessing they had an outdated version as well.

Edit: yep, just finished downloading the new patch. It now whiffs 100% of the time like you guys said. Go figure.

 

[KeyserSoze]

the startup though, if the EX version had a hit of armour, that would be interesting. Or just faster startup, that would help.

I've also nevere deliberately used blood sacrifice at all, isn't the ridiculous startup time enough for the meagre damage boost (which usually amount to very little in a fighting game anyway)? Do we really need to lose 10% health too?

Oh well, War God has plenty of tools, a couple of... interesting moves don't bother me.

1) I personally find Sun Ray/God Ray most useful for healing myself after a hard knockdown. It can absolutely save your ass in a close match.

2) If you never deliberately use Blood Offering, you are making a mistake. Blood Offering is something that should be used cautiously and sparingly, but when employed correctly, can be extremely effective. I find it most useful for closing out a match and preventing a comeback when I have a substantial life lead. It can essentially make a big comeback almost impossible.

 

[delbuster]

does blood offering only count towards next 3 moves hit? so blocked and whiffed moves do not count?

 

[regulas]

does blood offering only count towards next 3 moves hit? so blocked and whiffed moves do not count?

It's just your next three hits. So wiffs won't count cause you didn't hit but blocked hits do count, as do any jabs or other low dmg stuff you do. It's quite possible to get less then 1% dmg from it depending on what you use.

 

[Andromeda]

Not sure if anyone has pointed this out yet or it's just me, but when playing the Blood God variation, take a good look at one of his totems... Mainly the obsidian totem. There's a face on the top that looks SOOOOOOoooooo much like this mofo:

 

[RYX]

blood god is pretty nifty

I won't lie I kinda wish he had a totem that gave him armor, I'd take that over damage reduction and IMO it'd suit him better but all three totems are pretty great at what they do

I just discovered that he had a parry and it's actually pretty useful. Does it parry everything or only melee moves? It isn't so great vs multihits because it doesn't stop them like other parries, but I think this is gonna be pretty BS vs people who only have single hit moves like Reptile

I think war god might still be my favorite though, but now I'm a fan of all his variants

 

[regulas]

blood god is pretty nifty

I won't lie I kinda wish he had a totem that gave him armor, I'd take that over damage reduction and IMO it'd suit him better but all three totems are pretty great at what they do

I just discovered that he had a parry and it's actually pretty useful. Does it parry everything or only melee moves? It isn't so great vs multihits because it doesn't stop them like other parries, but I think this is gonna be pretty BS vs people who only have single hit moves like Reptile

I think war god might still be my favorite though, but now I'm a fan of all his variants

Parry is like the only reason Blood is at all usable, still feel Sun is not very useful with the low dmg it deals for its level three throw compared to normal throw. That being said it still feels like it's an overly defensive passive style, and eventually at tournies I expect that when people know the match-ups, it will be possible to abuse it's limited offensive options. War god in contrast has most of the same options but also has all the poke/mix-up pressure, and I don't see parry alone enough to compensate for that difference.

Blood's totems are great, the problem is that he like sun lacks options. The totems just modify his stats they don't actually give him the ability to do anything different then normal. I don't really know what they were thinking making stacking dmg buffs a playstyle especially on a character poorly equiped to take advantage of them.

Would be cool especially if his totems gave him different properites though, like faster recovery to make for safe strings or armor which would seem so much more useful then damage reduction...

 

[RYX]

jesus, I didn't even know he could keep parrying his attack, and the buffs stack on his next hit? do I need to meter burn to keep parrying it?

holy shit, this might actually give him a giant leg-up vs Goro's punch walk shenanigans

 

[DeathandGrim]

Please someone Help me with the Jax matchup. I can't answer the annoying pressure.

 

[Khaoz77]

Please someone Help me with the Jax matchup. I can't answer the annoying pressure.

What variation are you having trouble with?