General/Other - Kotal Kahn Kotal Kahn General Discussion

[stealthychainsawninja]

Ive done some testing, its not granting advantage, because grab duration is like 30-35 frames and nothing of his strings has so much cancel advantage on block

Pick Kotal Kahn vs Kotal Kahn in practice and set dummy to always block and to jump, then do 114 and hold up and compare their heights, then do 114 xx df1 and compare their heights again. It's clear that the attacking Kotal jumps earlier after whiffed airgrab. Thing is, I don't know on which strings/normals this is true besides 114 because I'm not entirely sure how the frame data works in this game and it's hard to tell visually from other strings that are so close to neutral on block.

EDIT: Hell, maybe the data is wrong. b122 has both larger recovery and larger cancel than 114, but is worse on block if you whiff airgrab (tested by punishing the string with Kotal's standing 2 when airgrab is whiffed, but being unable to punish with standing 1 without the airgrab).

 

[SaJa]

Pick Kotal Kahn vs Kotal Kahn in practice and set dummy to always block and to jump, then do 114 and hold up and compare their heights, then do 114 xx df1 and compare their heights again. It's clear that the attacking Kotal jumps earlier after whiffed airgrab. Thing is, I don't know on which strings/normals this is true besides 114 because I'm not entirely sure how the frame data works in this game and it's hard to tell visually from other strings that are so close to neutral on block.

EDIT: Hell, maybe the data is wrong. b122 has both larger recovery and larger cancel than 114, but is worse on block if you whiff airgrab (tested by punishing the string with Kotal's standing 2 when airgrab is whiffed, but being unable to punish with standing 1 without the airgrab).

Yeah there is clearly an advantage when you use the jumping stuff. But doesn't work on standing 4 aperently. They gotta be other string like b12/b122 or stuffs like that.

 

[Lanqu]

Because adv on block 114 = 0 and b122 adv on block = -hell.
Here goes:
- hell + some cancel adv = still -hell

So even cancel advantage is almost the same but difference in block stun makes them so different
But I dont beleive that he has really + on block, cancel advantage is somewhere 20+ but duration of grab somwhere 30+ so you must end somewhere at -10~

 

[stealthychainsawninja]

Because adv on block 114 = 0 and b122 adv on block = -hell.
Here goes:
- hell + some cancel adv = still -hell

So even cancel advantage is almost the same but difference in block stun makes them so different
But I dont beleive that he has really + on block, cancel advantage is somewhere 20+ but duration of grab somwhere 30+ so you must end somewhere at -10~

That wasn't the point; b122 is punishable with or without airgrab, yes, but what I was saying was that a 10-frame move could punish b122 xx df1 but a 9-frame move couldn't punish b122, meaning the grab is making it even more disadvantageous.

And yes, I agree on the math from my initial understanding of frame data, but actually try TESTING it in practice mode. I actually went and tested again by recording 114 xx df1, 2 (2 has 10-frame startup) against Liu Kang and trying to standing 1 Kotal Kahn out of it (Liu Kang's 1 has 7-frame startup). The best I could manage was a trade, and I can't even be sure I was frame perfect in recording Kotal.

EDIT: In trying to rerecord Kotal, I can't get a recording that I can't standing 1 out of anymore, but at the very least, it's obvious he's not ~-10.

EDIT 2: Scratch that, got it again. After trying 50+ times, can't beat Kotal's standing 2.

 

[Lanqu]

What variation did you try? I'll give a try and test this shit out.
Yesterday I was testing b122 + grab, 4+grab, f1b2 + grab and found that completely worthless. Forgot about 114, though. May be if opponent knows big minus on b122 thats where ex parry comes into play.

 

[stealthychainsawninja]

It shouldn't matter I think, but I tried testing with Sun God and Blood God. And yeah, b122 and f1b2 seem worse on block with the whiffed grab testing against other characters' normals; haven't tried other strings/normals yet.

EDIT: Just tested with War God, too, just in case. No apparent difference.

EDIT 2: Finished testing all normals/strings against other characters' normals. 114 seems to be the only one that benefits from whiffed airgrab.

 

[Lanqu]

The only useful info Ive got that Kotal`s dash is like 20frames and that'd be cool to train fingers using run faster than 20frames get advantage of it

 

[regulas]

So lets see, I feel Blood offering and God ray should both be around 20 frames faster (so in the 40 frame range) too slow to use in combos still but fast enough to be more readily usable outside of end of combo's and even more useful at end of combos because you still have time to land pressure.

Sung god's command grab full charge should deal 18-20% give what you have to go through, and full charge burn should be 1 full meter instead of just 2/3rds granted back.

Is what I think so far. the main problem I have with the first two abilities is just that they are too slow to be usable on a regular basis even assuming you would want to. Wheres sungods biggest problem is that his command grab is basically worse then regular grab except for hitting mid, or what is it 2% if your at max charges.

 

[WarriorOfSunlight]

It shouldn't matter I think, but I tried testing with Sun God and Blood God. And yeah, b122 and f1b2 seem worse on block with the whiffed grab testing against other characters' normals; haven't tried other strings/normals yet.

EDIT: Just tested with War God, too, just in case. No apparent difference.

EDIT 2: Finished testing all normals/strings against other characters' normals. 114 seems to be the only one that benefits from whiffed airgrab.

I think 114 and simply 4 both benefit from whiff air grabs. The beauty is that they also benefit on hit. 114 airgrab and 4 airgrab is safe from what Ive tested. As for advantage after the whiff grab, not sure. I haven't tested that. That would be awesome though if it is.

 

[WarriorOfSunlight]

So not a pro tech question or anything but what is the requirement for the Sun God command grab brutality?

You have to unlock brutalities in the krypt before you can use them. It is fairly simple once you unlock it. Just end the match with level 3 sun choke. I've been doing all the time and it looks awesome.

 

[Jaku2011]

You have to unlock brutalities in the krypt before you can use them. It is fairly simple once you unlock it. Just end the match with level 3 sun choke. I've been doing all the time and it looks awesome.

Ahh ok was wondering why I never got it. Thanks man.

 

[TokisPL]

Hey guys, very nice discussion here, thanks for all the ideas so far!

One thing that has been bothering me for some time: When I was practicing vs AI with Sun God and had Sun God set as my opponent, CPU did some kind of movement that looked like a wrestling-style low dropkick, flashing and burning, which I could not find in the list of available moves - have any of you seen something like this so far? It might have happened right after CPU pulled off a successful Parry (df2). Unfortunately, I don't have any record of that, but I'm hoping that somebody encountered such thing and can explain. BTW, what do you use for catching footage of combos you came up with? Just the PS4's Share option and cutting it in this edit tool we have in apps there? Or some external grabber?

And some food for thought: any ideas for setting up sunray(df4) anywhere in or after combos? Is there any ender that you can cancel into sunray, that will leave us far enough (or frame safe) to be capable of blocking/evading/parrying any of their wake-ups?

Sun God is fun, but I'm getting more and more attracted to the War god variation, thanks to mix-ups and improved offense.

Keep up the good work, folks!

 

[regulas]

Hey guys, very nice discussion here, thanks for all the ideas so far!

One thing that has been bothering me for some time: When I was practicing vs AI with Sun God and had Sun God set as my opponent, CPU did some kind of movement that looked like a wrestling-style low dropkick, flashing and burning, which I could not find in the list of available moves - have any of you seen something like this so far? It might have happened right after CPU pulled off a successful Parry (df2). Unfortunately, I don't have any record of that, but I'm hoping that somebody encountered such thing and can explain. BTW, what do you use for catching footage of combos you came up with? Just the PS4's Share option and cutting it in this edit tool we have in apps there? Or some external grabber?

And some food for thought: any ideas for setting up sunray(df4) anywhere in or after combos? Is there any ender that you can cancel into sunray, that will leave us far enough (or frame safe) to be capable of blocking/evading/parrying any of their wake-ups?

Sun God is fun, but I'm getting more and more attracted to the War god variation, thanks to mix-ups and improved offense.

Keep up the good work, folks!

As long as you cancel into the sunlight moves at the end of a combo then you will be able to block before any wake-up options. However in most circumstances you're probably better off just using the command grab instead. So really bloodgod is the main one that would actually use this as a combo ender cause it has limited choices.

 

[UltraDavid]

[QUOTE="TokisPL, post: 1664006, member: 36694And some food for thought: any ideas for setting up sunray(df4) anywhere in or after combos? Is there any ender that you can cancel into sunray, that will leave us far enough (or frame safe) to be capable of blocking/evading/parrying any of their wake-ups?[/QUOTE]
Ding ding, about 45 seconds in. You can bypass the neutral jump punch and just do f2 into f2 if that's easier for you.

 

[Pnut]

Ding ding, about 45 seconds in. You can bypass the neutral jump punch and just do f2 into f2 if that's easier for you.

You can do the same in War God setting up a meaty sword throw. I'd like to see where you see Kotal's future meta going. Is it with mixups in War God or entirely footsie based punishes and setups in Blood/Sun?

 

[regulas]

'd like to see where you see Kotal's future meta going. Is it with mixups in War God or entirely footsie based punishes and setups in Blood/Sun?

War god completely. Totems and the C grab just aren't even close to the mix-ups, safety, range, and pressure of war god. In fact since you have a combo finisher even damage from War god is largely on par all while being far far far more consistent.

 

[Khaoz77]

War god completely. Totems and the C grab just aren't even close to the mix-ups, safety, range, and pressure of war god. In fact since you have a combo finisher even damage from War god is largely on par all while being far far far more consistent.

Sadly I am slowly realizing this. Sun God is so much fun though

 

[UltraDavid]

You can do the same in War God setting up a meaty sword throw. I'd like to see where you see Kotal's future meta going. Is it with mixups in War God or entirely footsie based punishes and setups in Blood/Sun?

I figure it'll just be a matchup thing personally. War against turtles and rushdown where mixup & defensive options are really important, and blood where the opponent tries to play footsies with you. And yeah that combo isn't blood-specific, it's a useful combo into setup in all his variations. But in war I prob wouldn't set up a meaty sword throw because then you have to wait a bit for the sword to come back. I'd rather have my sword for the meaty overhead/low/unblockable mixup.

 

[regulas]

Sadly I am slowly realizing this. Sun God is so much fun though

It increasingly feels like he was paper nerfed, his high damages making it look on paper like he's super strong when it's not actually practical, so they nerfed a bunch of stuff down making him go from average to weak (outside of war god). Even his C grab was apparently only just nerfed in the day 1 patch making it struggle to compete with default throw.

Just thank the elder gods that War god came through unscathed and is so non-reliant on his base specials for it all to matter.

 

[DeathandGrim]

Has anyone found a way to make sun god viable? I love the command grab but he is so unsafe on most his strings and has no real mixups without that sword, unless you cancel into the commandgrab which is full combo punishable if the opponent anticipates

You can combo into command grab so just use his standard combos. I love Sun God for the added pressure of a command throw

So um, what are guys doing for anti-airs? And don't lie and say d2 coz Kotal's tableflip uppercut is hella ass.

Forward 1 is pretty good at stopping people dead in the air. And it leaves them open for combo

 

[delbuster]

114 has 36 frames of blockstun (add active + recovery and subtract advantage on block).
df1 has 31 frames total (add startup/active/recovery)
114 df1 whiff is +5 vs normals

4 has 32 frames of blockstun. it is +1 vs normals.

those are the only moves that are advantageous with whiff df1 as far as i know. however, f1b2 is normally -11 and turns into -8 if you use whiff df1 if i remember correctly, which is still punishable, but not by most armor moves. armor moves are usually used to beat f1b2 df2 on block, since the gap between f1b2 and df2 is pretty big. i tested it to be around 10frames, but math says it should be a blockstring. oh well lol

 

[stealthychainsawninja]

114 has 36 frames of blockstun (add active + recovery and subtract advantage on block).
df1 has 31 frames total (add startup/active/recovery)
114 df1 whiff is +5 vs normals

4 has 32 frames of blockstun. it is +1 vs normals.

those are the only moves that are advantageous with whiff df1 as far as i know. however, f1b2 is normally -11 and turns into -8 if you use whiff df1 if i remember correctly, which is still punishable, but not by most armor moves. armor moves are usually used to beat f1b2 df2 on block, since the gap between f1b2 and df2 is pretty big. i tested it to be around 10frames, but math says it should be a blockstring. oh well lol

I'm sorry, but I don't think this is right either. 4 df1 whiff clearly has more recovery than just 4 (tested using a dummy set to jump anyway), and f1b2 df1 whiff is punishable by at least 12-frame normals from testing in practice (recording Kotal doing the string and blocking, punishing with iirc Johnny Cage b1). 114 df1 certainly didn't feel +5 either.

And if you only need active and recovery to calculate this, then what is cancel for? And those numbers are assuming that the cancel happens on the first active frame the move connects, which I don't think is always true. I'm gonna relook at the numbers and try to figure it out again once this steam update finishes downloading, but these numbers don't seem right from my recollection.

 

[Tony at Home]

What do you guys think is Kotal Kahn's best AA normal is besides d2?

I think his d2 is really good because it has lightning fast startup, but when I'm able to really predict and get a read on a jump, and have time to AA with a normal move that could lead into some more damage, I'd definitely like to do that.

 

[delbuster]

I'm sorry, but I don't think this is right either. 4 df1 whiff clearly has more recovery than just 4 (tested using a dummy set to jump anyway), and f1b2 df1 whiff is punishable by at least 12-frame normals from testing in practice (recording Kotal doing the string and blocking, punishing with iirc Johnny Cage b1). 114 df1 certainly didn't feel +5 either.

And if you only need active and recovery to calculate this, then what is cancel for? And those numbers are assuming that the cancel happens on the first active frame the move connects, which I don't think is always true. I'm gonna relook at the numbers and try to figure it out again once this steam update finishes downloading, but these numbers don't seem right from my recollection.

i tested 4 df1 whiff vs kotal. blocking kotal doing d1 after. attacking kotal beats it with d1 (5 f) and trades with d3 (6f)

did a similar process with 114

 

[Tomo009]

I'm interested in what War God db3[8] is on block. I'm gonna assume that it ends up making everything worse, but by how much would be interesting. Don't know if it has any use on offense at all, some frame data could show us.