General/Other - Cybernetic Kano's Cybernetic Variation Discussion Thread

[Youphemism]

Eh, I don't have any trouble in the MU at all. But when you look at the MU on paper it seems like it shouldn't be that bad for Cassie since she has so many tools. Maybe I'm just theory fighting too much, but I think Cassie players are just being too lazy to learn the MU.

Yeah Cassie has more tools...up close. Cyber Kano just has tools that slow down all of Cassie's best entry options. She jumps? Back 1 all day. She plays footsies? You can (unlike some characters) actually compete with her there, and/or continue throwing knives at her to build meter and get more damage in. She's full screen? She has to hold it all in Brawler, she has to find a 50 frame gap for rockets in Spec Ops and Hollywood doesn't get much more than instant-air guns which you win in trades against because you knock her down which means you get to continue your zoning and technically full screen oki and she has to get up and find a gap in zoning to use another instant air gun.
In that matchup all you're worried about from jump distance is her jumping over a knife on a read for full combo or EX BF4ing through a knife or whatever tool you throw out to hit you with the second hit of it and full combo you. Even then her full combos aren't as threatening because you outdamage her midscreen and don't really need to use as much meter as her. I don't know if I'd call it a solid 7-3 but I have no problem in saying it's 6-4 (which being one of his easiest matchups is either a testament to the balance of this game or the mid tierness of Kano...or both)

Cyber and Commando beat Cassie, no doubt. I'd say CT is 5-5.

Wait, you think Commando beats her but Cutthroat goes 5-5? How come?

Hmm. Why's everyone so exited about CyberKano? I don't really get it. And this is not to talk down to Cybers, but CT has an overhead attack which makes a nice 50/50-game possible. Am I missing something? Is it the fast knives, lasers? (Because it really can't be the grenade attacks)

More people tend to play Cyber because it's easier to pick up and play, Cutthroat is tools-wise better but harder to win with. I personally main Cyber because it happens to fit the archetype of character I like but I also play Cutthroat, that's just me though.

 

[MsMiharo]

Yeah Cassie has more tools...up close. Cyber Kano just has tools that slow down all of Cassie's best entry options. She jumps? Back 1 all day. She plays footsies? You can (unlike some characters) actually compete with her there, and/or continue throwing knives at her to build meter and get more damage in. She's full screen? She has to hold it all in Brawler, she has to find a 50 frame gap for rockets in Spec Ops and Hollywood doesn't get much more than instant-air guns which you win in trades against because you knock her down which means you get to continue your zoning and technically full screen oki and she has to get up and find a gap in zoning to use another instant air gun.
In that matchup all you're worried about from jump distance is her jumping over a knife on a read for full combo or EX BF4ing through a knife or whatever tool you throw out to hit you with the second hit of it and full combo you. Even then her full combos aren't as threatening because you outdamage her midscreen and don't really need to use as much meter as her. I don't know if I'd call it a solid 7-3 but I have no problem in saying it's 6-4 (which being one of his easiest matchups is either a testament to the balance of this game or the mid tierness of Kano...or both)

Wait, you think Commando beats her but Cutthroat goes 5-5? How come?

More people tend to play Cyber because it's easier to pick up and play, Cutthroat is tools-wise better but harder to win with. I personally main Cyber because it happens to fit the archetype of character I like but I also play Cutthroat, that's just me though.

EX command grab eats her plus frames. He has supperior anti-airs and parries.

 

[RyuuJin882]

@OmeMark

Cyber plays differently to CT. You don't play him up close, you stay further away and use knives to force your opponent into making mistakes. His grenade attacks are for punishing those mistakes.

And as @MsMiharo rightly pointed out, throws exist in this game. The mix up isn't high/low with cyber, it's attack or throw.

Cyber is viable up close and dangerous enough without 50/50. Cyber is played at all distances.

 

[countrypistol]

Cyber is viable up close and dangerous enough without 50/50. Cyber is played at all distances.

I'm fully aware that Cyber has good pressure. I simply was trying to illustrate to Mark the general difference between CT and Cyber. He's fairly new to the game, so I didn't want to over complicate things for him.

 

[RyuuJin882]

@Youphemism does b1 really work? Doesn't she get extended range with her baton on jump in?

 

[SaltShaker]

@Youphemism does b1 really work? Doesn't she get extended range with her baton on jump in?

Sometimes you'll be hit. It's better on an early read than reaction against Cassie's Jip. D2 works 100% of the time though. She can't jump at all because you can D2 her on reaction back to full screen and then throw more knives.

 

[Youphemism]

EX command grab eats her plus frames. He has supperior anti-airs and parries.

Ok but your overall damage goes down and meter usage goes up making it about even with Cassie, and parries are a 50/50 really since although they're good when they land it's full combo if it misses. Cutthroat makes up for the increase in meter usage by having its own 50/50 as well as more damage.

@Youphemism does b1 really work? Doesn't she get extended range with her baton on jump in?

Yup, I use it the majority of the time. I'll be posting the videos from my local hopefully tomorrow and in there is my match with my training partner's Cassie so you can check that out

 

[MsMiharo]

Ok but your overall damage goes down and meter usage goes up making it about even with Cassie, and parries are a 50/50 really since although they're good when they land it's full combo if it misses. Cutthroat makes up for the increase in meter usage by having its own 50/50 as well as more damage.

You're just describing the difference between variations at this point. Cutthroat does fine vs those characters that want to rush you down. Cassie has to think before she acts, she can't streamroll, you have meterless ways of getting out of/punishing pressure, great WU options if she's playing brawler. Its harder to play CT defensively due to less options and IMO this MU should be played defensively.

 

[Youphemism]

You're just describing the difference between variations at this point. Cutthroat does fine vs those characters that want to rush you down. Cassie has to think before she acts, she can't streamroll, you have meterless ways of getting out of/punishing pressure, great WU options if she's playing brawler. Its harder to play CT defensively due to less options and IMO this MU should be played defensively.

Yeah well the differences between the variations are the reasons the matchup numbers change... I agree that you should be fighting Cassie defensively and that Cutthroat isn't really designed for that (in fact I actually think the reason people don't play Cutthroat is because it doesn't make sense, they gave a defensive/footsie-based character a variation forcing him to rush down lol) but damage is still important as well as what options you have when it becomes your turn to play offence. Cutthroat just has better options for turning the momentum around since you get your own 50/50s that she has to deal with and you can't keep Cassie out forever. Yes Cassie has to think before she acts to an extent but you still need to make reads in Commando with not only if you should parry but which parry you should use, it's not as easy to play defence in that situation as you're saying. It's definitely threatening of course but not easy, a lot of reads. What do you mean about having great wu options in Brawler? I think you're maybe downplaying Cutthroat's defensive options a little since some of the most important ones are shared with Cyber's (ex ball, ex up ball, D2). Yes it loses B1 but B1 doesn't even cover all jump attacks anyway and it still has a 9 frame mid in standing 3 (32 is a frame safer than B13 as well but not sure if that's much more helpful in the Cassie mu).

 

[MsMiharo]

Yeah well the differences between the variations are the reasons the matchup numbers change... I agree that you should be fighting Cassie defensively and that Cutthroat isn't really designed for that (in fact I actually think the reason people don't play Cutthroat is because it doesn't make sense, they gave a defensive/footsie-based character a variation forcing him to rush down lol) but damage is still important as well as what options you have when it becomes your turn to play offence. Cutthroat just has better options for turning the momentum around since you get your own 50/50s that she has to deal with and you can't keep Cassie out forever. Yes Cassie has to think before she acts to an extent but you still need to make reads in Commando with not only if you should parry but which parry you should use, it's not as easy to play defence in that situation as you're saying. It's definitely threatening of course but not easy, a lot of reads. What do you mean about having great wu options in Brawler? I think you're maybe downplaying Cutthroat's defensive options a little since some of the most important ones are shared with Cyber's (ex ball, ex up ball, D2). Yes it loses B1 but B1 doesn't even cover all jump attacks anyway and it still has a 9 frame mid in standing 3 (32 is a frame safer than B13 as well but not sure if that's much more helpful in the Cassie mu).

I meant WU vs brawler. Also choke is superior to b1 as an anti air. Being able toget out if pressure without meter is neat. I'm not saying I'm convinced it's 5-5 I just feel commando does better. Might be a matter of how you play the variations as well. I like db1 as a footsie tool which doesn't work vs cassie which is a bummer. Commando can turn the slight plus/minus frames from cassie to his favour with ex command grab and parries, as well as do the same after the slight minus frames after his attacks. Commando doesn't have those tools. Again I'm not saying these numbers are set in stone, just commandos tools make more sense in that MU.

 

[Youphemism]

I meant WU vs brawler. Also choke is superior to b1 as an anti air. Being able toget out if pressure without meter is neat. I'm not saying I'm convinced it's 5-5 I just feel commando does better. Might be a matter of how you play the variations as well. I like db1 as a footsie tool which doesn't work vs cassie which is a bummer. Commando can turn the slight plus/minus frames from cassie to his favour with ex command grab and parries, as well as do the same after the slight minus frames after his attacks. Commando doesn't have those tools. Again I'm not saying these numbers are set in stone, just commandos tools make more sense in that MU.

I should really mess about with choke as an anti-air, haven't actually used it in matches myself yet. DB1 in Cutthroat right? You're saying it doesn't work I assume because she can punish it and not that it actually doesn't work? Lol. Cutthroat may not have parries but what it has instead is 50/50s, so instead of going for a risky 20% in Commando you get to go for a completely safe 50/50 that either leads to 40% or at least being neutral on block.

I just think that if Commando possibly beats her because he has parries and ex grabs for 20%s on a right read then Cutthroat with safe 40%s just handles the switch in momentum better and would also win. Yes Cassie does punish DB1 and F21 but you can just play the same footsies you'd play in Cyber or Commando instead of using DB1 and you can cancel F21 into ex knives to save yourself from punishment.

 

[MsMiharo]

I should really mess about with choke as an anti-air, haven't actually used it in matches myself yet. DB1 in Cutthroat right? You're saying it doesn't work I assume because she can punish it and not that it actually doesn't work? Lol. Cutthroat may not have parries but what it has instead is 50/50s, so instead of going for a risky 20% in Commando you get to go for a completely safe 50/50 that either leads to 40% or at least being neutral on block.

I just think that if Commando possibly beats her because he has parries and ex grabs for 20%s on a right read then Cutthroat with safe 40%s just handles the switch in momentum better and would also win. Yes Cassie does punish DB1 and F21 but you can just play the same footsies you'd play in Cyber or Commando instead of using DB1 and you can cancel F21 into ex knives to save yourself from punishment.

Yeah choke is an amazing anti-air. Doesn't lead to much but basically means Cassie has to use b1 to get , and if she spaces it wrong you can just parry for free.

Regarding the last bit, sure, but CT has to get in on Cassie to do the damage while commando (and cyber) can just sit back and make her hang herself. That's where I think the MU really differs. She has to be the one to throw out stuff and you can make the (hopefully) right reads. When she's in you have the best options in Commando, no doubt about it. Then again I don't have THAT much exp in the MU and I do main Commando, so take it all with a grain of salt.

 

[Youphemism]

Yeah choke is an amazing anti-air. Doesn't lead to much but basically means Cassie has to use b1 to get , and if she spaces it wrong you can just parry for free.

Regarding the last bit, sure, but CT has to get in on Cassie to do the damage while commando (and cyber) can just sit back and make her hang herself. That's where I think the MU really differs. She has to be the one to throw out stuff and you can make the (hopefully) right reads. When she's in you have the best options in Commando, no doubt about it. Then again I don't have THAT much exp in the MU and I do main Commando, so take it all with a grain of salt.

No he doesn't, Cutthroat can just zone the same as Commando would then when she gets in and thinks she has control you completely flip the momentum and 50/50 her back. Well, best options in Commando is a bit hasty I'd say. I'd agree more if the options weren't so risky. I mean if you whiff a parry it's full combo and you do to her pretty much the same damage as she'll do to you lol. Ex grab is another option but do you not want to get combos instead and send her full screen again? Commando is probably my least played I'll admit and I could be missing something, I agree Commando beats her but I just think if Commando does well then Cuthroat would do too. I guess it's because you don't see Cutthroat as much, I dunno. Either way Kano beats Cassie which is hilarious considering so many characters have problems with her.

 

[NHDR]

...Cassie can punish CT F21? I thought it was totally safe?

 

[MsMiharo]

No he doesn't, Cutthroat can just zone the same as Commando would then when she gets in and thinks she has control you completely flip the momentum and 50/50 her back. Well, best options in Commando is a bit hasty I'd say. I'd agree more if the options weren't so risky. I mean if you whiff a parry it's full combo and you do to her pretty much the same damage as she'll do to you lol. Ex grab is another option but do you not want to get combos instead and send her full screen again? Commando is probably my least played I'll admit and I could be missing something, I agree Commando beats her but I just think if Commando does well then Cuthroat would do too. I guess it's because you don't see Cutthroat as much, I dunno. Either way Kano beats Cassie which is hilarious considering so many characters have problems with her.

Yeah this discussion is kind of splitting hairs but basically I think that two of CTs main tools f21 and db1 getting punished is a big deal. But as you say, no Kano loads to her which is... funny.

 

[SaltShaker]

...Cassie can punish CT F21? I thought it was totally safe?

It's safe against almost everyone. Almost.

Cassie can reversal EX Flip you into combo. Trust me I know lol.

 

[Youphemism]

...Cassie can punish CT F21? I thought it was totally safe?

Nope F21 is -6, I'm 99% sure it used to be safe though. Either that or the frame data was wrong or I'm remembering things that didn't happen lol.

 

[Jupe]

It's safe against almost everyone. Almost.

Cassie can reversal EX Flip you into combo. Trust me I know lol.

I'm 99% sure she actually can't ex flip you from f21 but she can use normal flip instead. Ex flip whiffs but normal hits.

 

[SaltShaker]

I'm 99% sure she actually can't ex flip you from f21 but she can use normal flip instead. Ex flip whiffs but normal hits.

Yea you're right my bad. Regular flip. No idea why I said EX lol.

 

[Youphemism]

If any of you want to see my Cyber from my local on Tuesday then you can check it out in the archive in the thread on the front page I'm a little rusty which you'll probably notice when you see me do shit like B232+4MB instead of B312 near the corner after a DB1 (lol) but I'll make sure I'm back to normal for this Tuesday

 

[SaltShaker]

If any of you want to see my Cyber from my local on Tuesday then you can check it out in the archive in the thread on the front page I'm a little rusty which you'll probably notice when you see me do shit like B232+4MB instead of B312 near the corner after a DB1 (lol) but I'll make sure I'm back to normal for this Tuesday

That always happens when you're rusty haha. I haven't been using Kano much myself but MUs at DTN made me bring him out of comfort. It's the worst when you make bloopers you know you don't normally make lol. I'll check it out tomorrow morning. I have a couple to post myself soon.

 

[Youphemism]

That always happens when you're rusty haha. I haven't been using Kano much myself but MUs at DTN made me bring him out of comfort. It's the worst when you make bloopers you know you don't normally make lol. I'll check it out tomorrow morning. I have a couple to post myself soon.

I'm practising right now since my local's tomorrow hopefully I don't get caught by stupid stuff tomorrow... It'll be cool to see yours!

 

[SaltShaker]

I'm practising right now since my local's tomorrow hopefully I don't get caught by stupid stuff tomorrow... It'll be cool to see yours!

Nice. I've got one tomorrow and Coach's event on Thurs. Kano is still soooo fun to play. Not many better feelings than using fundamentals and Footsies to control a match with Kano in this game.

Haha I was the other way around. Being too impatient so a couple of times I threw out Kano Ball mid screen on a bad read thinking they would jump or run. Bad move haha. Other than that it was on point for the most part.

 

[Youphemism]

Nice. I've got one tomorrow and Coach's event on Thurs. Kano is still soooo fun to play. Not many better feelings than using fundamentals and Footsies to control a match with Kano in this game.

Haha I was the other way around. Being too impatient so a couple of times I threw out Kano Ball mid screen on a bad read thinking they would jump or run. Bad move haha. Other than that it was on point for the most part.

Can't be saying things like that, too sentimental Jk I totally agree man, that's why I'm still maining him....until Fujin comes out then I'm dropping him SO HARD lol.

Yeah I think I use Kano ball too much expecting people not to punish it. Most of the time they don't but it doesn't make it a good habit haha.

 

[RyuuJin882]

If any of you want to see my Cyber from my local on Tuesday then you can check it out in the archive in the thread on the front page I'm a little rusty which you'll probably notice when you see me do shit like B232+4MB instead of B312 near the corner after a DB1 (lol) but I'll make sure I'm back to normal for this Tuesday

Where is this video archive you mention?