Question - Kano KANO needs some buffs?

[SaltShaker]

I agree that Up Laser needs changed because we have better options in B1 or even D2, but as for the damage boost and/or overhead I remain unchanged in my opinion about those because as of yet there's nothing to suggest he's not viable enough without it.

Well for one thing I don't think it's fair to just judge him against specific variations of the character, you may as well do it for all their variations to see how he fares against the character and not just one or two variations. I'll put their other variations in brackets if for some reason only considering specific variations is fairer but I can't work out why since it's 5:30am here.

For the sake of not being TOO specific, let's just put in into probably wins, probably even and probably loses (probably because it's not that long into the life of the game and we all still need to figure it out more).

My opinion is:

Probably wins - Hollywood Cassie, (Brawler Cassie), Bojutsu Kung Jin, Covert Ops Sonya, Wrestler Jax, Grandmaster Sub Zero (I honestly don't have too many problems in the matchup myself but I'm not going to say he wins 100%, 6-4 at best probably), (Demolition Sonya),
Probably even - Pumped Up Jax, Summoner Quan, Swarm Queen D'Vorah, Outlaw Erron Black (could be winning tbh, Erron doesn't have the best options from full screen but we'll see where this mu goes), (Shaolin Kung Jin), (Ancestral Kung Jin) (will lab/practice more), Special Forces Sonya,
Probably loses - Heavy Weapons Jax, Thunder God Raiden, Inferno Scorpion, Hellfire Scorpion, Spec Ops Cassie.

That's 5 (or 7) winning, 5 (or 7) even and 5 losing. That's relatively decent I reckon.

Yea I agree the OH isn't necessary. I believe he's good enough without it, and with some small tweaks he'll survive just fine without an OH. Especially since Cutthroat already has one. Damage I'd favor a couple extra % but if he actually got a couple minor buffs I could care less about that too. He's really just a couple of tweaks away from "borderline" top 10 level where I think he would stay throughout the game with those previous suggestions.

The MU's, I only didn't list app because some of the MU's we'll rarely see because they aren't too good. Like when you fight Sonya or Sub-Zero you have like a 1% chance to see Demolition or Unbreakable. I don't expect any of us to agree on full MU list since it's so many characters and still so early, but I can see a lot of yours holding true.

I think the only ones I would have a strong opinion against would be Erron for obvious frustrating reasons (my opinion of this MU is falling faster every week), Swarm Queen D'Vorah (I'd say Venomous was even, or actually slightly in favor where Swarm is slightly against), and Hellfire being a probably, because it feels like what death must feel like. Other than that I could see most of that rounding out somewhere around those lines.

That's why the only changes I suggest in seriousness are small, but impactful. Some minor buffs to Cyber to excel it's defense like better B2 startup and better priority on Ball Specials, buffs to that horrendous choke in Commando and the whiffs/trades of command grab, and Cutthroats EX Powerup and B1 hitbox. With those things alone he should be able to stay afloat through the entire life of the game.

 

[SaltShaker]

No one is asking or crying for buffs (except for op). Just reasonable fixes that will make him more consistent and will make his play style more competitive.

(Although I would not mind b1/2 3 2+4 to be safer allowing for a better mixup in cyber)

B13 2+4 and B23 2+4 is safe on block. The pushback makes it safe. You can mix it up on block with that, stopping before 2+4, a knife, EX Knives, and once they're blocking after the 3 a B31 for the +1 on block and more pressure. Of course grabs too.

It's an unusual on block mixup but you can open people up with it if you keep it unpredictable. It's very strong in comparison to characters without an OH so he can use the pressure to get his opening, do his damage, and continue on the defensive.

 

[villainous monk]

I just disagree with a "wait and see" approach. We've been down that road in many, many fighting games in their patches or their updated versions of their game, and it always ends the same. Injustice, MK9, SF, KOF, Tekken, etc etc, I could go on. Once you don't get that buff because you're deemed "fine at mid tier" the end result is always a fail by the final version of the game. There are very few examples of them staying "fine" or improving, and countless examples of characters dropping.

The top, say 10 characters may get "nerfed", but then what? They'll still be dominant. Use Injustice for a great example since we're on TYM. Aquaman and DD got "nerfed" in Injustice a couple of times but stayed Top characters making Top 8's for years in every tourney. Flash and Bane got multiple buffs throughout patching and became Top 10. Raven and Grundy were deemed "fine mid tier characters" and ended up low tier by game's end. Then there's always the character or two that's nerfed too hard like Scorpion and Adam. This is the life of all games. There is no way possible Kano can just "be fine" leading to the final version when he isn't even a top 10 character now to begin with. I highly doubt more than 2-3 characters are leaving that Top 10. They aren't gonna just bomb the majority of characters in the top, so most will stay strong after patches, with new members becoming strong through buffs or dlc.

There's always a risk of over buffing (Bane) or over nerfing (Scorpion), but the good players aren't asking for that. We're asking for small changes that we feel will help avoid the historical fall that 90% of non helped characters make, and it's met with "oh your amazing character needs nothing", which isn't true.

Some buffs in Cyber, B1 hitbox and the Power Up in Cutt, Choke in Commando, will not magically turn Kano into a S-Tier character. What it will do is ensure he isn't left behind by the time the final patch has ended.

This is why I come back to this thread. You speak the truth and your right.

They did the very same thing with Kano and Baraka in MK9. Upon release they were great and quite a few patches in they were left being even after a buff here and there most notably Baraka's df2 ex blade charge finally went full screen after a patch or two went by when he needed it. So I ask. Is MKX Kano deserving of the same fate? Yes hes a good character as far has I'm concerned he the best character for me and the only real one I care to fully learn and master.

Even though and quite a few have said this already too. The exposure of such a character on a hot topic that even I am weary of putting input on not only that almost every other post is salty as hell to one another but BECAUSE I do remember those patches many years ago and played over 12,000 hard fought laggy online matches with THOSE 2 great characters (Kano & Baraka) our ideas and thoughts are being put on blast for TYM and everyone to see. Thus (and I hope) history does not repeat itself the very said way has Grundy. As Baraka. As Kano.

Forget the fact he's mid or low or whatever. He. Needs. Work. So this thread HAS become important to voice a few things but for the sake of my time and eyes lets cut the shit & salt and build on what was a comical fart in the wind into a pretty decent thread. Even I joined in because Kano IS ok but he doe's need some help. He needs a up grade in his arsenal. Weather but I like it or not Kano's problems are known. My losses are proof.

Let's just remember a godlike Kung lao and a very broken Cyrax with a ridiculous Kabal having his way with Kano and Scorpion and Baraka when patches left them behind. Let's see if that wont happen a second time around.

I appologize @SaltShaker for using your post like this. I just wanted to add my opinion and got a bit carried away.

 

[MORDECA1]

I don't think some people understand how tiny that B1 hitbox is. The string is good and all. And Kano is not a bad character from what I can tell, but that B1 is so short.

I don't see many features of Kano on streams and tournaments. There is a guy Cutthroat Kano who dominated with Cyber weeks ago. Anybody have any recent gameplay of him in ESLs?

 

[SaltShaker]

I don't think some people understand how tiny that B1 hitbox is. The string is good and all. And Kano is not a bad character from what I can tell, but that B1 is so short.

I don't see many features of Kano on streams and tournaments. There is a guy Cutthroat Kano who dominated with Cyber weeks ago. Anybody have any recent gameplay of him in ESLs?

Yea Kano has very, very low representation right now, and it isn't because he's so beastly people are afraid to use him lol. That Top 10 is too real in MKX.

Cutthroat B1 has to have a hitbox improvement on the way. I'm almost sure of it. I've had it whiff while trying to hit characters in the corner with it. It makes Jacqui's B3 look like Dhalsim legs.

 

[bdizzle2700]

I'm best kano

 

[dribirut]

God kanos mb knives pressure is such a bill... It's not even worth doing. I use a bar of meter for what? It's only plus 5 so forget the fact that I don't even have a mixup besides throw to open the opponent up, I still have to guess whether the opponent is going to either armor/ back dash/ or respect. If I guess right I either get more useless pressure or 20%.. Guess wrong I eat a full combo...

It's so sad I'll find myself back dashing more often then not after getting mb knives blocked even though it's plus

 

[Hidan]

Truth is that he needs a playable hitbox in B1 for cutthroat.

And since B1's nerf in cyber and commando is unbelievably retarded, I suggest you guys ask your move back.

Because it's one thing to reduce block stun and another to increase the overall recovery of a move.

Plus I'm almost sure this particular nerf resulted from whining

 

[MsMiharo]

B13 2+4 and B23 2+4 is safe on block. The pushback makes it safe. You can mix it up on block with that, stopping before 2+4, a knife, EX Knives, and once they're blocking after the 3 a B31 for the +1 on block and more pressure. Of course grabs too.

It's an unusual on block mixup but you can open people up with it if you keep it unpredictable. It's very strong in comparison to characters without an OH so he can use the pressure to get his opening, do his damage, and continue on the defensive.

Pretty sure reversal slide etc beats it but I might be wrong

 

[Youphemism]

Yea I agree the OH isn't necessary. I believe he's good enough without it, and with some small tweaks he'll survive just fine without an OH. Especially since Cutthroat already has one. Damage I'd favor a couple extra % but if he actually got a couple minor buffs I could care less about that too. He's really just a couple of tweaks away from "borderline" top 10 level where I think he would stay throughout the game with those previous suggestions.

The MU's, I only didn't list app because some of the MU's we'll rarely see because they aren't too good. Like when you fight Sonya or Sub-Zero you have like a 1% chance to see Demolition or Unbreakable. I don't expect any of us to agree on full MU list since it's so many characters and still so early, but I can see a lot of yours holding true.

I think the only ones I would have a strong opinion against would be Erron for obvious frustrating reasons (my opinion of this MU is falling faster every week), Swarm Queen D'Vorah (I'd say Venomous was even, or actually slightly in favor where Swarm is slightly against), and Hellfire being a probably, because it feels like what death must feel like. Other than that I could see most of that rounding out somewhere around those lines.

That's why the only changes I suggest in seriousness are small, but impactful. Some minor buffs to Cyber to excel it's defense like better B2 startup and better priority on Ball Specials, buffs to that horrendous choke in Commando and the whiffs/trades of command grab, and Cutthroats EX Powerup and B1 hitbox. With those things alone he should be able to stay afloat through the entire life of the game.

Well firstly I realised I didn't even list all the variations but that's probably because I was too tired to remember to add them lol. The reason I wouldn't give him a damage boost is because what would affect Cybernetic could also affect Cutthroat which could boost it to the point where it might be on the nerf radar and we don't want that... That and Cybernetic isn't about getting big damage and sending them back full screen but more about getting that full screen positioning. It's not like he does under 20% damage if he hits, THEN I'd be asking for a damage boost, but as he is he's not supposed to get big damage. I mean ask for buffs all you like but I don't really think he needs them. A character "needing" something is only usually if the character is unviable or low tier and Cybernetic Kano isn't either in my opinion.

I can see problems with Gunslinger and Marksman but Outlaw? Nah. I honestly don't have too much of a problem in this matchup. If you zone them out right then you should have the space control you want most of the match. If you get stuck in the corner you always have EX DB1 or EX BF3 for full combo and full screen positioning again, but of course it's going to be mostly reads there.
Swarm Queen D'Vorah outdamages us, yes, but that's only if she gets in and lands a hit. I've had no problem zoning and spacing out any Swarm Queen D'Vorahs. Whiff punishing her isn't too hard if your spacing is on point either. She can try Vortex Swarm but you really should be relentlessly throwing out knives so that if she does try it you recover in time to block it and she has to hold the knife. You need to throw so many knives that she has to jump because she isn't even able to Vortex Swarm, at which point she's yours for the taking.
Hellfire I won't even think about but I know it's a losing matchup.

Honestly I think Kano Ball startup should be decreased, either that or it should move across the screen faster. We're not really going to get many whiff punishes out of it where it is right now. B2 having less startup sounds good too. Choke should be plus on hit like Mileenas teleport is but maybe not like Erron's Sand Trap was lol. What's wrong with his powerup? I don't get why people keep complaining about it.

 

[kabelfritz]

I honestly find the range of his B1 in his cut throat variation unnerving and I'm not even a Kano mainer and since for Kenshi worked (even tho Kenshi was a joke before the patch) I think it's natural that many people are trying to get their main buffed.
If I were to apport some (in my opinion reasonable) changes those would be

Nerfs:
B12 can no longer combo into EX DD3;
B121 now does 10% instead of 12%;
112 is now -3 from -1.


Buffs:
B1 range is slightly increased (it now connects 1 step from the closest distance);
11 is now neutral on block from -2;
2F4 is now +2 on block from +0;
DD3 now consumes 8% health instead of 10%.

do not touch my holy 112. if a specific vVariation has issues, keep changes, especially nerfs, to variation specific things.

 

[Farpafraf]

do not touch my holy 112. if a specific vVariation has issues, keep changes, especially nerfs, to variation specific things.

I thought that to buff 11 112 should have been slightly worse but I forgot that the last hit can be armored: my bad.

 

[Devin Thorn]

So I only read the first page and kinda thought it was a ridiculous idea, but he could definitely use some minor fixes no? What does each variation absolutely NEED? Or could Kano stay as is and be completely fine the rest of the game? I just want to see what the top players have to say as I'm a new FG player and this one of the ways I've been learning the nuances of the game

 

[SaltShaker]

Well firstly I realised I didn't even list all the variations but that's probably because I was too tired to remember to add them lol. The reason I wouldn't give him a damage boost is because what would affect Cybernetic could also affect Cutthroat which could boost it to the point where it might be on the nerf radar and we don't want that... That and Cybernetic isn't about getting big damage and sending them back full screen but more about getting that full screen positioning. It's not like he does under 20% damage if he hits, THEN I'd be asking for a damage boost, but as he is he's not supposed to get big damage. I mean ask for buffs all you like but I don't really think he needs them. A character "needing" something is only usually if the character is unviable or low tier and Cybernetic Kano isn't either in my opinion.

I can see problems with Gunslinger and Marksman but Outlaw? Nah. I honestly don't have too much of a problem in this matchup. If you zone them out right then you should have the space control you want most of the match. If you get stuck in the corner you always have EX DB1 or EX BF3 for full combo and full screen positioning again, but of course it's going to be mostly reads there.
Swarm Queen D'Vorah outdamages us, yes, but that's only if she gets in and lands a hit. I've had no problem zoning and spacing out any Swarm Queen D'Vorahs. Whiff punishing her isn't too hard if your spacing is on point either. She can try Vortex Swarm but you really should be relentlessly throwing out knives so that if she does try it you recover in time to block it and she has to hold the knife. You need to throw so many knives that she has to jump because she isn't even able to Vortex Swarm, at which point she's yours for the taking.
Hellfire I won't even think about but I know it's a losing matchup.

Honestly I think Kano Ball startup should be decreased, either that or it should move across the screen faster. We're not really going to get many whiff punishes out of it where it is right now. B2 having less startup sounds good too. Choke should be plus on hit like Mileenas teleport is but maybe not like Erron's Sand Trap was lol. What's wrong with his powerup? I don't get why people keep complaining about it.

Yea I saw lol. The only way they could give Cyber damage buffs without the other two variations being effected would be to adjust scaling on laser and EX Gernade. Still, I'd rather see adjustments to a few Cyber normals and Ball Specials priority than extra damage. Like why can Sonya Arc kick from full screen and have maximum priority on the kick all the way to the end, but Kano ball can be poked, combo'd, air to air'd, grabbed, etc? Doesn't make sense.

I'm not sure about everyone else, but I know what I and @ando1184 propose are more fixes to use than buffs with a few exceptions as far as "needs" go. Like-

"Needs" buff-

Start up on B2 in Cyber. It's just too slow, and for defense purposes land a knife mid screen our B2 follow up can be blown up by some characters. It shouldn't be like that. It should be the ultimate whiff punish/advantage utilizing tool. I can deal with this move having crap priority if it had a few faster frames.

Ball Specials. Hell even if this was just a "Cyber only has more priority on Ball Specials" we'd be happy. For a defensive specialist, it's ridiculous that all the Divekicks have uber priority but our ball specials have none past the initial start up. Being S4 out of Ball and Jip1 out of upball, and grabbed out of airball is insane.

What we consider "fixes" rather than "buffs".

Commando Choke. Lol @ this move is all I can say. Lol.

Command Grabs. They are the core of Commando gameplay and no way should be whiffing and trading in certain situations. It makes me feel like it has Jacqui B2 issues which ended up being patched. Kotal's grab was patched to not whiff. This should be adjusted.

Cutthroat B1. The fact that you can have your opponent in the corner and randomly whiff a B1 OH at times says it all. The hitbox needs to be improved. Kano can be stepping on someone's foot and still whiff this move at times.

Cutthroat Power Up. Yea it needs tweaking. 13.5% is wayyyy too much health to lose if you aren't hit because no one can turn it off in a real match. 8-10% yea, but 13.5 is too much. Now the EX Powerup is worse. It's basically a situational move at best unless you're capable of pulling off 2 frame links 100% of the time. If someone pokes you with a D1 the Powerup is over and you just blew a bar for nothing. So outside of very limited desperation situations you almost never EX it because the potential for wasting a bar is too big.

Those I would say surely "need" to be changed, and is probably less than any character forum has asked for. I don't see a problem with it and while it would make Kano better, in the grand scheme of things not by much. It would just ensure he got some support. I'll talk the MU stuff with you later in the other thread.

I think I'll make an organized list thread that's a little more respectable for everyone to discuss later on.

 

[Devin Thorn]

Awesome stuff @SaltShaker looking forward to a well organized list sometime!

 

[MsMiharo]

I find it weird that commando has almost no tick throws. Compare him to Erron Black, WHO IS NOT A GRAPPLER, but gets ticks off of really good strings such as 21122 and f12 as well as ability to connect on hit and block from d3. Kano gets... F33... "Yay"

 

[ando1184]

I find it weird that commando has almost no tick throws. Compare him to Erron Black, WHO IS NOT A GRAPPLER, but gets ticks off of really good strings such as 21122 and f12 as well as ability to connect on hit and block from d3. Kano gets... F33... "Yay"

That's very true, you'd think b1 since it's -2 would have been one but nope. B13 could have worked out as well but that's NRS for ya. If they have a plan they won't let us know until they do it.
@SaltShaker, I'm glad we have ya in this community bud. That list is perfect

Edit: @X-xAvOk-X, you might wanna copy/paste SaltShaker's list to the OP. Those are the most reasonable "fixes/buffs" this character needs and it would be nice if NRS did give this thread a look and recognized them without having to cycle through pages of nonsense.

 

[FlappyDaniel]

You get tick grabs off of d4, D3, ji3 and ji4... Can be hard to convert off of just a poke instead of a string but it's ok. I f I get more consistent command grabs that's honestly all I need. I feel confident in my ability to adapt to opposing offense. And am already making large strides in my offense every time I play... I'm gonna be away from the game for a week so not lookin forward to that, wanna keep grinding so bad.

 

[Rude]

Yea I actually agree with that line of thinking. Only thing is that we already know how NRS will handle the game, which is why we'll need it. Hell I wish they did something like that. Spaced out the patching over a long period of time instead of short burst. That would be my #1 preference if it was actually possible lol.



As a few members from TYM who actually know me in person will tell you, I am an accountant in nyc working for PriceWaterHouse Coopers, one of the top 2 accounting firms in the world. I'm able to live an incredible fast paced lifestyle due to the over inflated paychecks they send me every two weeks.

But don't worry bro, next time I post I'll remember that same random online nobody named "roosTakk" thinks I should better utilize my time.

I want to say, "lawyered" but that isn't the appropriate phrase.

Accountant'd, maybe? No, that's not quite it. I'll work on it.

 

[Rude]

God kanos mb knives pressure is such a bill... It's not even worth doing. I use a bar of meter for what? It's only plus 5 so forget the fact that I don't even have a mixup besides throw to open the opponent up, I still have to guess whether the opponent is going to either armor/ back dash/ or respect. If I guess right I either get more useless pressure or 20%.. Guess wrong I eat a full combo...

It's so sad I'll find myself back dashing more often then not after getting mb knives blocked even though it's plus

It's true that you get nothing guaranteed off mb knives. However, characters armoring through + frames happens a lot in this game, period. I'm not a fan.

I'm not sure what the answer is though, as you can't make MB Knives too ridiculously + on block.

 

[Rude]

Cyber Kano will definitely need some adjustments moving forward.

Better priority on ball specials, b23, etc.

I believed Saltshaker talked about increasing pushback on block with some of his attacks. I'd agree with that.

I had an idea, but it might be unreasonable. You can tell me if it is.

Would giving MB Knives pushback on block be a problem?

I feel like this would improve his keep out game, but i don't know everything.

 

[kabelfritz]

I find it weird that commando has almost no tick throws. Compare him to Erron Black, WHO IS NOT A GRAPPLER, but gets ticks off of really good strings such as 21122 and f12 as well as ability to connect on hit and block from d3. Kano gets... F33... "Yay"

that is more an issue with erron black as with kano though. if kano could tick mid string hed be OP.

 

[MsMiharo]

You get tick grabs off of d4, D3, ji3 and ji4... Can be hard to convert off of just a poke instead of a string but it's ok. I f I get more consistent command grabs that's honestly all I need. I feel confident in my ability to adapt to opposing offense. And am already making large strides in my offense every time I play... I'm gonna be away from the game for a week so not lookin forward to that, wanna keep grinding so bad.

Yeah I just feel he'd be 10 times better if he could tick off of b13, f4 or b31.

 

[MsMiharo]

that is more an issue with erron black as with kano though. if kano could tick mid string hed be OP.

I agree. He still wouldn't be op though since you can always get out of ticks. It's just a nice mixup.

 

[Zephyrus]

cutthroat kano b+2 should have a better hitbox and be more reliable. That's pretty much it for him.