Question - Kano KANO needs some buffs?

[GAV]

@GAV When it comes to missing the point, you are second to none.

Ignorance is delicious.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

Please stop posting about games you know nothing about.

Ultra Street Fighter IV is about footsies and the damage potential you are able to acquire from your pokes.

Mortal Kombat X is about knocking your opponent down and performing 50/50 mix ups.

You have no idea how this game works. Every post you make just makes it more obvious

 

[ando1184]

I noticed in the most recent patch notes Kotal khans air throw had an issue trading at times. So does that mean that kanos command throws might be fixed in the future? I've had it trade a few times myself, and that's both power slam and rib breaker.

 

[SaltShaker]

I love how people who aren't even good at the game who never even attend a local or played anyone credible can tell us what our character does and doesn't need. This must by how your Kitana Community has been feeling huh @RunwayMafia? If I understood before, I really understand now.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

I don't get what you are complaining about. You are saying he's mid tier, yet you want him buffed. He is in a really good position. Why do we want to throw out the balance he has in regards to so much of the cast, just because he isn't as strong as the very top tier, characters in need of a nerf.

The only real answer to this is "because I play Kano and it benefits me to say so", although not one of you will admit it, obviously, because acknowledging this destroys your argument.

Mid tier is not a bad thing. Leave Kano alone.

 

[Nereus]

Ok guys. After playing and main my man kano for a month already, I think he needs some buffs. I'm not telling he's bad. But against top tiers he's pretty fuck mostly. Even using his best weapons the zoning elements. We know so far by now that zoning in this game is just gonna give u a salty day.
So I believe he need some overheads in cybernetic variation at least one.
NJ1 needs to increase his hitbox and be more faster, because he's very easy to block and very punishable.
In cutthroat variation he needs more safe elements for pressure.

I think this at the moment are fair buffs and this isn't make the character broke or unfair.

I don't know, what do you think about it?.

I think asking for a buff on a character after one month of playing is completely unjustifiable and you need more time with the game.

 

[DFC]

@GAV If you really think the strong reactions in this thread are in reaction to people saying Kano doesn't need buffs, then I don't know what to tell you. Because that is right up there with the most incorrect statements of this thread. At no point did anyone "Lose their minds" to the idea of Kano not receiving buffs. In fact, more people went off by saying he DID need buffs. I know I lost it at two very specific points. 1 being some other guy saying that we shouldn't expect NRS to strive for perfect balance, while the other was you trying to be a funny troll, falling flat on your face, and backpeadaling into the defense mechanism we see now.

Now I bid you a good evening, and hope that in the future you will make quality contributions to Test Your Might.

 

[SaltShaker]

I don't get what you are complaining about. You are saying he's mid tier, yet you want him buffed. He is in a really good position. Why do we want to throw out the balance he has in regards to so much of the cast, just because he isn't as strong as the very top tier, characters in need of a nerf.

The only real answer to this is "because I play Kano and it benefits me to say so", although not one of you will admit it, obviously, because acknowledging this destroys your argument.

Mid tier is not a bad thing. Leave Kano alone.

You're putting words in many people's mouth.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

You're putting words in many people's mouth.

Sure, that's a pretty easy, baseless response to make, but when you make statements like the ones here

Spoiler: Salt Shaker post about Kano being mid tier

I don't know why this made me laugh as much as it did. I pictured you saying it in doctor-like voice lol.



So what character have you switched to? A Top 10 one?

Also, for those who aren't realizing what happened in the Kano community from actual Kano main's, the chain of events went like this-

-Kano is Top 5. He has it all. What a savage of a character. Please don't nerf him NRS. We love you.

-Kano is around the low end of the Top 10. He can beat half of the top characters and only has 1 losing MU. Beastly character still.

-Kano is just outside of the top 10. Not as good as we thought he was but still a very solid character.

-Kano is mid tier but can still go even with more top characters than other mid tiers. It would be nice for a couple of buffs but we don't need it too much. We'll be fine.

-Kano is a solid mid tier character. Has a few even MU's and a few bad MU's vs the Top 10. He may need some help to stay competitive.

As anyone can notice, the more our competitive players level up and evolve with the game, the more we are trending down. Not up, not parallel, but down. This isn't because some magical elements are hurting the character, it's because we are realizing more and more what he is and isn't capable of the more we use him at high levels.

then I find it hard to misinterpret this to mean anything other than "Kano is mid tier". Or are you saying that because he's dropped in "tier" (in your perception) that this automatically means he is going to keep falling and needs to be buffed now even though he's currently mid, even according to you?

I am honestly saying this not because I disagree that Kano is in need of buffs, but at this point I'm honestly confused to what the realistic argument is. Logically interpreting what you Kano guys are saying is doing a better job of convincing me that he DOESNT need nerfs than anything else.

 

[SaltShaker]

Sure, that's a pretty easy, baseless response to make, but when you make statements like the ones here
then I find it hard to misinterpret this to mean anything other than "Kano is mid tier". Or are you saying that because he's dropped in "tier" (in your perception) that this automatically means he is going to keep falling and needs to be buffed now even though he's currently mid, even according to you?

I am honestly saying this not because I disagree that Kano is in need of buffs, but at this point I'm honestly confused to what the realistic argument is. Logically interpreting what you Kano guys are saying is doing a better job of convincing me that he DOESNT need nerfs than anything else.

Baseless response because I'm not gonna keep repeating myself in the same thread. There is a reason why 90% of good to great Kano players feel exactly how I described multiple times throughout the thread.

What the strong majority of our community is saying, is that contrary to popular belief, this game is not balanced. Being a mid tier defensive character in MKX is not enough to be "fine" from a competitive standpoint. He's as "fine" as Grundy was. How did that turn out for him in the long run? If he was that "fine" he wouldn't be incredibly unrepresented in tournament. That is proof of the opposite, that he isn't as good as people on the outside think he is. If you want to win you pick the Top 10, the true "good" characters. That's what we are saying.

The point is this. It can be said that Cassie, D'Vorah, Ermac, Erron, Jacqui, Jax, buffed Kenshi, Kung Jin, Lao, Quan Chi, Raiden, Scorpion, Sub-Zero, and Sonya are stronger characters, not counting Tanya. That's 14 out of 26 characters being likely better than Kano, with maybe only 2 being debatable. Liu Kang is around Kano's level. Couple that with Kano being a defensive character in MKX. Couple that with characters like Kitana, Reptile, and Goro almost surely receiving buffs in the near future. Couple that with unexpected unaccounted for future buffs of other characters. You know what the end result of that leads to if Kano is "fine" during the course of all this? Low tier final patch.

We've never said other characters shouldn't be buffed or nerfed, we simply point out what our character could use, which isn't a lot but is needed at the same time, so he doesn't end up low tier by the end of the game.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

So basically, you just stated that he is sitting square in the middle of the cast, and that's giving you the benefit of the doubt of at least 3 highly debatable choices being above him, but we won't get into that.

Yet you still think he should be buffed.

You are confirming the exact mentality that I'm picking up on here.

You also have no idea who will recieve buffs and who won't, and where these buffs will leave the cast. Kenshi got buffs in a recent patch and he's very high now, Kitana recieved buffs and she's still barely playable. You are trying to balance him in a meta that doesn't exist, based off hypotheticals and predictions, one in which all these, according to you, he'd still be 17 out of 24 and that's being extremely generous to your point of view since he is likely higher than at least a few of them.

I'm seeing no reason why he needs buffs, you have however put an excellent argument forth of why we should leave Kano alone for now. All I'm reading is "You are right, I'm not going to admit that the reason I want buffs is because I play the character, so here is a bunch of weak logic that I think supports my point of view when presented this way" but in reality just does the opposite.

Whatever, you've confirmed beyond all doubts to me exactly where it is that this thread is coming from now, I'm going to leave it be, the only thing that interests me now is next patch notes, I'm curious about NRS's decisions and we'll see how all this whinging will affect them

 

[SaltShaker]

So basically, you just stated that he is sitting square in the middle of the cast, and that's giving you the benefit of the doubt of at least 3 highly debatable choices being above him, but we won't get into that.

Yet you still think he should be buffed.

You are confirming the exact mentality that I'm picking up on here.

You also have no idea who will recieve buffs and who won't, and where these buffs will leave the cast. Kenshi got buffs in a recent patch and he's very high now, Kitana recieved buffs and she's still barely playable. You are trying to balance him in a meta that doesn't exist, based off hypotheticals and predictions, one in which all these, according to you, he'd still be 17 out of 24 and that's being extremely generous to your point of view since he is likely higher than at least a few of them.

I'm seeing no reason why he needs buffs, you have however put an excellent argument forth of why we should leave Kano alone for now. All I'm reading is "You are right, I'm not going to admit that the reason I want buffs is because I play the character, so here is a bunch of weak logic that I think supports my point of view when presented this way" but in reality just does the opposite.

Whatever, you've confirmed beyond all doubts to me exactly where it is that this thread is coming from now, I'm going to leave it be, the only thing that interests me now is next patch notes, I'm curious about NRS's decisions and we'll see how all this whinging will affect them

So in other words, "your" logic is "as long as he's mid tier it's cool. Who cares that the Top Tier is significantly better and other characters will be buffed to his level, or as Kenshi showed above his level as well. After 3-4-5 patches he can go untouched and remain in the exact same position by final patch. Grundy and Raven are bad examples because that type of thing never everrrr happens to characters."

Makes perfect sense.

 

[MORDECA1]

I like Kano and will continue to play Cutthroat.

My ideas about a small upgrade to the Power Charge and a tiny increase in the hitbox of B1 are all admittedly coming from a very average player.

I was only opining in the appropriate thread. Folks get too salty up in this piece.

 

[SaltShaker]

I like Kano and will continue to play Cutthroat.

My ideas about a small upgrade to the Power Charge and a tiny increase in the hitbox of B1 are all admittedly coming from a very average player.

I was only opining in the appropriate thread. Folks get too salty up in this piece.

Don't stress it. Those are basically the only two adjustments that Cutthroat needs. A better buff, mainly the EX, and a better hitbox on B1. But apparently those small additions are asking for too much and skyrocket him to God Tier lol.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

So in other words, "your" logic is "as long as he's mid tier it's cool. Who cares that the Top Tier is significantly better and other characters will be buffed to his level, or as Kenshi showed above his level as well. After 3-4-5 patches he can go untouched and remain in the exact same position by final patch. Grundy and Raven are bad examples because that type of thing never everrrr happens to characters."

Makes perfect sense.

I think that the top tier characters should be nerfed, as they are significantly above the majority of the cast (Kano included), because they pretty much lack weaknesses. I think while Kano is mid tier he should stay untouched. If in 3-5 patches he's bottom tier, you'd have an argument. As it stands, you are trying to pre-emptively balance him for a meta you have predicted with extreme bias against Kanos positioning inside it, which literally makes no sense to me, as buffing him now just puts him in the pool of characters who do need a nerf. He's mid tier and that's where I want him to stay and the rest of the cast to be as close as possible, and the majority very much are.

Keep complaining that you have a mid tier character. I've found all your content so far to be really good usually, but your personal bias here is just way too much to be ignored and you cannot acknowledge it.

 

[ETC AdmiralAugustus]

Don't keep Kano down

 

[SaltShaker]

I think that the top tier characters should be nerfed, as they are significantly above the majority of the cast (Kano included), because they pretty much lack weaknesses. I think while Kano is mid tier he should stay untouched. If in 3-5 patches he's bottom tier, you'd have an argument. As it stands, you are trying to pre-emptively balance him for a meta you have predicted with extreme bias against Kanos positioning inside it, which literally makes no sense to me, as buffing him now just puts him in the pool of characters who do need a nerf. He's mid tier and that's where I want him to stay and the rest of the cast to be as close as possible, and the majority very much are.

Keep complaining that you have a mid tier character. I've found all your content so far to be really good usually, but your personal bias here is just way too much to be ignored and you cannot acknowledge it.

I just disagree with a "wait and see" approach. We've been down that road in many, many fighting games in their patches or their updated versions of their game, and it always ends the same. Injustice, MK9, SF, KOF, Tekken, etc etc, I could go on. Once you don't get that buff because you're deemed "fine at mid tier" the end result is always a fail by the final version of the game. There are very few examples of them staying "fine" or improving, and countless examples of characters dropping.

The top, say 10 characters may get "nerfed", but then what? They'll still be dominant. Use Injustice for a great example since we're on TYM. Aquaman and DD got "nerfed" in Injustice a couple of times but stayed Top characters making Top 8's for years in every tourney. Flash and Bane got multiple buffs throughout patching and became Top 10. Raven and Grundy were deemed "fine mid tier characters" and ended up low tier by game's end. Then there's always the character or two that's nerfed too hard like Scorpion and Adam. This is the life of all games. There is no way possible Kano can just "be fine" leading to the final version when he isn't even a top 10 character now to begin with. I highly doubt more than 2-3 characters are leaving that Top 10. They aren't gonna just bomb the majority of characters in the top, so most will stay strong after patches, with new members becoming strong through buffs or dlc.

There's always a risk of over buffing (Bane) or over nerfing (Scorpion), but the good players aren't asking for that. We're asking for small changes that we feel will help avoid the historical fall that 90% of non helped characters make, and it's met with "oh your amazing character needs nothing", which isn't true.

Some buffs in Cyber, B1 hitbox and the Power Up in Cutt, Choke in Commando, will not magically turn Kano into a S-Tier character. What it will do is ensure he isn't left behind by the time the final patch has ended.

 

[ando1184]

I just disagree with a "wait and see" approach. We've been down that road in many, many fighting games in their patches or their updated versions of their game, and it always ends the same. Injustice, MK9, SF, KOF, Tekken, etc etc, I could go on. Once you don't get that buff because you're deemed "fine at mid tier" the end result is always a fail by the final version of the game. There are very few examples of them staying "fine" or improving, and countless examples of characters dropping.

The top, say 10 characters may get "nerfed", but then what? They'll still be dominant. Use Injustice for a great example since we're on TYM. Aquaman and DD got "nerfed" in Injustice a couple of times but stayed Top characters making Top 8's for years in every tourney. Flash and Bane got multiple buffs throughout patching and became Top 10. Raven and Grundy were deemed "fine mid tier characters" and ended up low tier by game's end. Then there's always the character or two that's nerfed too hard like Scorpion and Adam. This is the life of all games. There is no way possible Kano can just "be fine" leading to the final version when he isn't even a top 10 character now to begin with. I highly doubt more than 2-3 characters are leaving that Top 10. They aren't gonna just bomb the majority of characters in the top, so most will stay strong after patches, with new members becoming strong through buffs or dlc.

There's always a risk of over buffing (Bane) or over nerfing (Scorpion), but the good players aren't asking for that. We're asking for small changes that we feel will help avoid the historical fall that 90% of non helped characters make, and it's met with "oh your amazing character needs nothing", which isn't true.

Some buffs in Cyber, B1 hitbox and the Power Up in Cutt, Choke in Commando, will not magically turn Kano into a S-Tier character. What it will do is ensure he isn't left behind by the time the final patch has ended.

Don't forget about green arrow, he got nothing but nerfs for the most part with only "1" decent buff. Where did that get him? Lowest of the low mid tier spot or high low tier, and that's because of 1 guy who makes all lower tiered characters look better than they are. Because of examples like this @I GOT HANDS, we are concerned for the future of our characters viability in this game. Realistically, it's not too illogical to look out for the well being of our character and we aren't asking for an Erron Black style 21122 string or anything. @SaltShaker, you forgot to mention command throws whiffing and trading in commando variation

 

[SaltShaker]

Don't forget about green arrow, he got nothing but nerfs for the most part with only "1" decent buff. Where did that get him? Lowest of the low mid tier spot or high low tier, and that's because of 1 guy who makes all lower tiered characters look better than they are. Because of examples like this @I GOT HANDS, we are concerned for the future of our characters viability in this game. Realistically, that's not something too illogical to look out for the well being of our character and we aren't asking for an Erron Black style 21122 string or anything. @SaltShaker, you forgot to mention command throws whiffing and trading in commando variation

Oh yea that's a big one too. I was playing Commando against Cassie a couple of days ago and was hit with the "command grab trade effect" a couple of times. I was saying to myself, "hey was that supposed to happen? Ah this is what they meant." Being that the core of his game revolves around being the MK version of Zangeif in that variation, he needs those throws to, well to throw lol.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

I'm just saying, you guys have a better chance of getting these buffs when you actually ARE low tier, demanding them now is just gonna make people less likely to support you when its relevant

 

[Youphemism]

I agree that Up Laser needs changed because we have better options in B1 or even D2, but as for the damage boost and/or overhead I remain unchanged in my opinion about those because as of yet there's nothing to suggest he's not viable enough without it.

I think you, Coach Steve, and OgManimal might be the only ones left who disagree with Kano's fairing vs the top 10 lol.

So you have Raiden, Quan Chi, Scorpion, D'Vorah, Sonya, Erron Black, Cassie, Jax, Kung Jin, and Sub-Zero. This is pretty much the Top 10 agreed upon within the scene, just the order is debated at times. Now considering competitive variations only we have this.

Kano dominant MU's- none.

Kano adv. MU's- Hollywood Cassie. 1 total variation.

Kano even MU's, but possibly can be advantage- Bojutsu Kung Jin, Covert Ops Sonya, 2 total variations.

Kano even MU's- Summoner Quan Chi, D'Vorah Venomous, Jax. 5 variations counting 3 of Jax.

Kano even MU's, put possibly can be disadvantage- Swarm Queen D'Vorah, Special Forces Sonya, Grand Master Sub-Zero, Thunder God Raiden, 4 total variations.

Kano bad MU's- Inferno Scorpion, Spec Ops Cassie, 2 total variations.

Kano death MU's- Hellfire Scorpion, Outlaw Erron Black (since post patch effects other MU's much more than this one). 2 total variations.

So we're looking at something close to no dominant MU's, 1 clear adv, 2 possible adv, 5 even (3 from one character), 4 possibly bad, 2 bad, and 2 really bad vs variations of the Top 10. As a whole, I'm sure everyone doesn't agree on all of it since we're all different people, but that seems to be the general standing at this point.

If other characters start getting buffed up and Kano gets nothing he'll just gradually slide down the ladder while others catch up, and eventually end up the Grundy of the game. It's why I think he'll need some additions as time goes. Nothing too crazy, but a few little things to keep him in the competitive scene.

Well for one thing I don't think it's fair to just judge him against specific variations of the character, you may as well do it for all their variations to see how he fares against the character and not just one or two variations. I'll put their other variations in brackets if for some reason only considering specific variations is fairer but I can't work out why since it's 5:30am here.

For the sake of not being TOO specific, let's just put in into probably wins, probably even and probably loses (probably because it's not that long into the life of the game and we all still need to figure it out more).

My opinion is:

Probably wins - Hollywood Cassie, (Brawler Cassie), Bojutsu Kung Jin, Covert Ops Sonya, Wrestler Jax, Grandmaster Sub Zero (I honestly don't have too many problems in the matchup myself but I'm not going to say he wins 100%, 6-4 at best probably), (Demolition Sonya),
Probably even - Pumped Up Jax, Summoner Quan, Swarm Queen D'Vorah, Outlaw Erron Black (could be winning tbh, Erron doesn't have the best options from full screen but we'll see where this mu goes), (Shaolin Kung Jin), (Ancestral Kung Jin) (will lab/practice more), Special Forces Sonya,
Probably loses - Heavy Weapons Jax, Thunder God Raiden, Inferno Scorpion, Hellfire Scorpion, Spec Ops Cassie.

That's 5 (or 7) winning, 5 (or 7) even and 5 losing. That's relatively decent I reckon.

 

[villainous monk]

Yeah I agree this combos are demostration only not practical unless you want to close the game or be in a hard play.

I know. Still its a nice lil combo that says "yep... Your done. Game over." I like that. in fact I want to use that my friend. It suits my play style to a T.

 

[MsMiharo]

No one is asking or crying for buffs (except for op). Just reasonable fixes that will make him more consistent and will make his play style more competitive.

(Although I would not mind b1/2 3 2+4 to be safer allowing for a better mixup in cyber)

 

[FlappyDaniel]

I'm so glad I m not the only one noticing some BS with trading and whiffing. I thought I was just bad.

 

[GAV]

@GAV If you really think the strong reactions in this thread are in reaction to people saying Kano doesn't need buffs, then I don't know what to tell you. Because that is right up there with the most incorrect statements of this thread. At no point did anyone "Lose their minds" to the idea of Kano not receiving buffs. In fact, more people went off by saying he DID need buffs. I know I lost it at two very specific points. 1 being some other guy saying that we shouldn't expect NRS to strive for perfect balance, while the other was you trying to be a funny troll, falling flat on your face, and backpeadaling into the defense mechanism we see now.

Now I bid you a good evening, and hope that in the future you will make quality contributions to Test Your Might.

You know, we can disagree without being enemies...

I think Kano is pretty good as a character. When I was using him, I found it pretty easy to win - even against players whom I thought were more skilled.

It may be that my mindset in fighting games is a lot like Kano's would be. I'm not worried about my opponents' feelings. I don't try to put on an exhibition. I do whatever is best to win.

If you're playing Kano differently, then he probably isn't the right character for you.