Kabal MU Thread 2013

[K7L33THA]

Updated OP again. One mu I'm thinking might be way worse than listed is Rain/Kabal. But am hesitant to put it at 7-3 or worse cuz of his opportunity to get high damage off of escaping pressure. But Rain still has to take hella risk. Thoughts 7-3 or worse or keep at 6-4?

 

[DJ L Toro]

Another matchup chart with essentially the same regurgitated numbers *sigh*

 

[Skitzo]

Updated OP again. One mu I'm thinking might be way worse than listed is Rain/Kabal. But am hesitant to put it at 7-3 or worse cuz of his opportunity to get high damage off of escaping pressure. But Rain still has to take hella risk. Thoughts 7-3 or worse or keep at 6-4?

I can agree with 7-3

 

[Skitzo]

Another matchup chart with essentially the same regurgitated numbers *sigh*

& then?

 

[GGA soonk]

7-3 on Rain. Don't bother w/ pressure. Just zone. Rain's ways in are unsafe.

 

[ChrisJG]

cage might be more than 7-3. I play online though so I might be missing something.

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

Wait wait wait what the hell is this bullshit about cage kabal being 3-7 or even 4-6. Kabal has a better rushdown, safe, full combo armor, outzones the hell out of him, and has way better mobility than him with nomad dash..... Maybe 3-7, but this sounds like an exact example of a 2-8.
Lulzlou can you elaborate on why you don't think it is that bad for cage?
And what experience in the matchup do all the people saying it isn't as bad as kenshi have in the matchup?

 

[Lulzlou]

Wait wait wait what the hell is this bullshit about cage kabal being 3-7 or even 4-6. Kabal has a better rushdown, safe, full combo armor, outzones the hell out of him, and has way better mobility than him with nomad dash..... Maybe 3-7, but this sounds like an exact example of a 2-8.
Lulzlou can you elaborate on why you don't think it is that bad for cage?
And what experience in the matchup do all the people saying it isn't as bad as kenshi have in the matchup?

When I get home

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

When I get home

Yeah works for me, thanks.

 

[WannabePlayer]

I think the Kabal-Smoke MU can be more of a 6-4. Honestly, since I'm sick and too lazy to explain, I'm just going to cite @xSmokex's matches against REO which he did insanely well in. Looking at all of those matches, The Kabal-Smoke MU does not look a 7-3. Maybe against the average crappy Smoke (me) against an average crappy Kabal, but I think it has the potential to be more of a 6-4.

Again, I'm not a very credible Smoke, but I thought I'd give my input on that MU anyway.

 

[Skitzo]

I think the Kabal-Smoke MU can be more of a 6-4. Honestly, since I'm sick and too lazy to explain, I'm just going to cite @xSmokex's matches against REO which he did insanely well in. Looking at all of those matches, The Kabal-Smoke MU does not look a 7-3. Maybe against the average crappy Smoke (me) against an average crappy Kabal, but I think it has the potential to be more of a 6-4.

Again, I'm not a very credible Smoke, but I thought I'd give my input on that MU anyway.

The mu is 7-3 because of tools, not player skills. Kabal can literally get in whenever he wants, Smoke can't play keep-away like the cage or sonya mu. The only thing Smoke has is the reset which is gonna be hard to land if the Kabal player is always in your face.

 

[Lulzlou]

@

Wait wait wait what the hell is this bullshit about cage kabal being 3-7 or even 4-6. Kabal has a better rushdown, safe, full combo armor, outzones the hell out of him, and has way better mobility than him with nomad dash..... Maybe 3-7, but this sounds like an exact example of a 2-8.
Lulzlou can you elaborate on why you don't think it is that bad for cage?
And what experience in the matchup do all the people saying it isn't as bad as kenshi have in the matchup?

This match up is really dependent on the stage

If the Cage player is good then it will be very hard for the kabal to get out of pressure. Its not an 8-2 because he doesn't have the same problems like Baraka. Cage has an extremely good forward dash and can get in really well. Its tough doing so but its no where near as bad as a character like baraka has it. All baraka has is blade charge which is really unsafe. Cage has a good dash on top of EXshadowkick. Kabal can't really pressure Johnny as much as he wants because of his hitbox. It limits his options and makes it easier to read. 50/50's, d4ndc (-2onblock) and f4dc(-4onblock) end Kabals pressure. Also if Cage can't punish blocked d1's or start pressure after a blocked d3 with f3 then it Kabal is going to take advantage of that with more pressure. Yes, Kabal has ex dash and flash parry but thats all part of the read. Kabal has no real way to escape pressure without meter. With a smaller stage like the pitt its hard to build meter without the fear of being cornered from pretty much anywhere on screen. It forces kabal to take more risks. Sometimes b1 will hit on crouch blocked Cage but if he can ex nutpunch between it limits him from using his launcher.

I don't expect you to agree with me. I'm simply stating my opinion on the match up.
http://testyourmight.com/threads/general-mk9-frame-data-info.15988/
heres the info on his dash

also i want to add that Cage can f3 or 2 out of his pressure if thats all kabal is doing is ndc block strings

 

[WannabePlayer]

The mu is 7-3 because of tools, not player skills.

The potential is still there which is one of the reasons I feel like it's more of a 6-4. A 7-3 is pretty extreme. If one of the best Smoke's can do that well against probably the best Kabal, a 7-3 looks all the more unlikely. Also matchups are also based off of player performance and actual matchups. It's not just theory fighter.

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

@

This match up is really dependent on the stage

If the Cage player is good then it will be very hard for the kabal to get out of pressure. Its not an 8-2 because he doesn't have the same problems like Baraka. Cage has an extremely good forward dash and can get in really well. Its tough doing so but its no where near as bad as a character like baraka has it. All baraka has is blade charge which is really unsafe. Cage has a good dash on top of EXshadowkick. Kabal can't really pressure Johnny as much as he wants because of his hitbox. It limits his options and makes it easier to read. 50/50's, d4ndc (-2onblock) and f4dc(-4onblock) end Kabals pressure. Also if Cage can't punish blocked d1's or start pressure after a blocked d3 with f3 then it Kabal is going to take advantage of that with more pressure. Yes, Kabal has ex dash and flash parry but thats all part of the read. Kabal has no real way to escape pressure without meter. With a smaller stage like the pitt its hard to build meter without the fear of being cornered from pretty much anywhere on screen. It forces kabal to take more risks. Sometimes b1 will hit on crouch blocked Cage but if he can ex nutpunch between it limits him from using his launcher.

I don't expect you to agree with me. I'm simply stating my opinion on the match up.
http://testyourmight.com/threads/general-mk9-frame-data-info.15988/
heres the info on his dash

Heres my issue though, Kabal can control the screen really well and ndc makes things it really hard to approach kabal when mixed with iagb. Cage has to be exremely afraid of kabals overhead because he can reverse positions, which opens up more kabal pressure and ground saws and really the rest of kabals game with ndc. I will say 7-3 is possible though. And kabal has some of the best ways out of pressure,especially as player 1 ith fwd4 being nine frames. his d3 is good enough to get out with fwd4, and anyway when does kabal not have meter?

 

[Lulzlou]

Heres my issue though, Kabal can control the screen really well and ndc makes things it really hard to approach kabal when mixed with iagb. Cage has to be exremely afraid of kabals overhead because he can reverse positions, which opens up more kabal pressure and ground saws and really the rest of kabals game with ndc. I will say 7-3 is possible though. And kabal has some of the best ways out of pressure,especially as player 1 ith fwd4 being nine frames. his d3 is good enough to get out with fwd4, and anyway when does kabal not have meter?

Block low most of the time and simply stand up when you think he is going to do the overhead. Kitana has to deal with that also and its a 6-4. Maybe saying 6-4 on the pitt is a bit extremely but a kabal like REO wouldn't go straight to roof top if he loses on the pitt for nothing. Cage has a much easier time on that stage but its not to the point where its still 7-3 imo. I could be wrong but I really don't care. All I'm going to do is go to Roof Top day if I'm on player 2 in tournament against him.

The way I see if is if Johnny Cage couldn't keep up with kabal up close then I'd agree with it being 8-2, like NW and Baraka for example

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

Block low most of the time and simply stand up when you think he is going to do the overhead. Kitana has to deal with that also and its a 6-4. Maybe saying 6-4 on the pitt is a bit extremely but a kabal like REO wouldn't go straight to roof top if he loses on the pitt for nothing. Cage has a much easier time on that stage but its not to the point where its still 7-3 imo. I could be wrong but I really don't care. All I'm going to do is go to Roof Top day if I'm on player 2 in tournament against him.

The way I see if is if Johnny Cage couldn't keep up with kabal up close then I'd agree with it being 8-2.

if you look at it, cage technically loses up close as well..... and don't a lot of players believe it is worse for kitana? It really doesn't matter though I guess.

 

[Lulzlou]

if you look at it, cage technically loses up close as well..... and don't a lot of players believe it is worse for kitana? It really doesn't matter though I guess.

I believe xKhaoTikx and rev0lver think its 6-4 kabal-kit. The tournament record shows its not that bad for Kitana.
I'm not saying you are wrong in anyway. This is just how I feel the match up is

 

[zaf]

I think ermac kabal is closer to 6-4.

At the beginning of the match if ermac can get first hit, he has advantage.

At this point he has 2 Meters and kabal has 1. Ermac can zone with fireballs and tkp relentlessly at this point... You say kabal has ex ndc with his 1 meter but then ermac can break and no one has meter.

At this point ermac can zone with no fear of anything. My fireball goes under iagb, teleport beats iagb, so you are reduced to ground saw and dash blocking. Trading fireball and saw is no problem for ermac. Dash blocking in on ermac makes you play his games.

This is were ermac wants to be, kabal with no meter. That doesn't always happen. But when it does i feel it is ermac advantage.

Also, any time kabal gets 2 meters and breaks, he gets put back into this situation where he has to actually work to get in.

At certain ranges, ermac fireball into tkp becomes a frame trap similar to freddy

Now outside of Meterless kabal ermac still goes under iagb with fireball and teleport beats out iagb.
2ndc can be avoided by being hit by 2 then neutral crouch block then punish, so thats not going to stop ermac.

As for relentless ndc pressure kabal has to fear d1 lift.

What do you all think?
I say 6 4.

 

[xKhaoTik]

I believe xKhaoTikx and rev0lver think its 6-4 kabal-kit. The tournament record shows its not that bad for Kitana.
I'm not saying you are wrong in anyway. This is just how I feel the match up is

Kitana is one of the few characters who can hang with Kabal at a high level, even on rooftop. Definite 6-4

 

[zaf]

K7L33THA Lulzlou

Youre thoughts on what i posted?

 

[Lulzlou]

K7L33THA Lulzlou

Youre thoughts on what i posted?

i'll post my two cents tomorrow. I'm waaay too tired right now

 

[K7L33THA]

K7L33THA Lulzlou

Youre thoughts on what i posted?

My only Ermac experience is online. But the main issues in the MU are his crappy pokes and unsafe launchers. D1 lift is a big risk just to get out of pressure. Ermac constantly has to worry about ex dash blowing up all his spacing options. I think REO and some others had it at like 8-2. But to me 7-3 seems right because of Ermac's damage.

 

[K7L33THA]

Some of these match-ups are completely inaccurate.

Which ones? In fact if we could get your full current mu numbers would be helpful.

 

[zaf]

My only Ermac experience is online. But the main issues in the MU are his crappy pokes and unsafe launchers. D1 lift is a big risk just to get out of pressure. Ermac constantly has to worry about ex dash blowing up all his spacing options. I think REO and some others had it at like 8-2. But to me 7-3 seems right because of Ermac's damage.

1 poke to interrupt pressure into an iafb is not crappy at all.

Any time during ndc pressure that a kabal does a d1/d3 on block ermac can iafb out.

D1 lift is not as risky as you think. It works more often then not. If kabal is pressuring, he is pressing buttons like a mad man due to the technical aspect, the d1 lift interupts and catches you by surprise.

Also by the way i mentioned i am now approaching the mu, im aiming to drain your meter.

 

[Perfect Legend]

@

This match up is really dependent on the stage

If the Cage player is good then it will be very hard for the kabal to get out of pressure. Its not an 8-2 because he doesn't have the same problems like Baraka. Cage has an extremely good forward dash and can get in really well. Its tough doing so but its no where near as bad as a character like baraka has it. All baraka has is blade charge which is really unsafe. Cage has a good dash on top of EXshadowkick. Kabal can't really pressure Johnny as much as he wants because of his hitbox. It limits his options and makes it easier to read. 50/50's, d4ndc (-2onblock) and f4dc(-4onblock) end Kabals pressure. Also if Cage can't punish blocked d1's or start pressure after a blocked d3 with f3 then it Kabal is going to take advantage of that with more pressure. Yes, Kabal has ex dash and flash parry but thats all part of the read. Kabal has no real way to escape pressure without meter. With a smaller stage like the pitt its hard to build meter without the fear of being cornered from pretty much anywhere on screen. It forces kabal to take more risks. Sometimes b1 will hit on crouch blocked Cage but if he can ex nutpunch between it limits him from using his launcher.

I don't expect you to agree with me. I'm simply stating my opinion on the match up.
http://testyourmight.com/threads/general-mk9-frame-data-info.15988/
heres the info on his dash

also i want to add that Cage can f3 or 2 out of his pressure if thats all kabal is doing is ndc block strings

ITS ABOUT TIME SOMEONE ACTUALLY AGREES WITH WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING THIS ENTIRE TIME. On big stages this is 6/4 not no damn 7-3 and on smaller stage is 5-5 IGF