K&M Post-patch/Celtic Throwdown Tier List

[Evil Canadian]

The logic makes sense though with regard to tournament placings. He prefaced his entire commentary by saying that Tier lists matter mostly at the highest level of play and proceeds to make his list based on how characters have been used at the highest level.
In my opinion this is accurate logic because the highest level players are going to be the ones that use characters to their utmost potential and if they aren't able to take a character like Kollector and use his tools to overcome characters that are in the highest of tiers then its safe to assume those tools just aren't enough to over come a bad match up when all other things are equal.
However online when you have players matching up of widely varying skill levels that don't know every match up inside and out you can have a Liu Kang player get mopped by a Kollector player that just out plays the Liu Kang player so the tier list means nothing in that situation because all things are not equal.
This is how I think about it anyway.

I don't care for that bit of logic one bit. If you ascribe to that logic, then you have to put dvorah at top tier cause of sonic fox.

You don't need tournaments or results to see if a character is strong or not, all you need is to hit training mode and see their options. You don't need someone else to show you if a character is strong or not when you can see it for yourself.

 

[Orochi]

First Sonic and now K&M put Scorpion bottom 6. Low tier boys, the struggle is real. It's frustrating playing Scorpion... and getting no respect.

 

[xKMMx]

I don't care for that bit of logic one bit. If you ascribe to that logic, then you have to put dvorah at top tier cause of sonic fox.

You don't need tournaments or results to see if a character is strong or not, all you need is to hit training mode and see their options. You don't need someone else to show you if a character is strong or not when you can see it for yourself.

Not off of one tournament. Keep in mind this list was based off of all majors so far.

 

[DeftMonk]

No liu Kangs F3333xxShaolinStance 3
Now has less pushback and blockstun which made a gap and its punishable after as well.
Liu Kang is still good just dangerous to go for his damage from F3 and its 13f startup so not the best wiff/punisher vs top tiers.
WSL is getting good damage from F4/B1/123 with buff active.

The only thing LQ got buffed was his jailing from pokes, it has a 5f window to jail. Incredibly strong though but the rest where nerfs.

Damn totally didn’t know that...honestly huge reason I used that variation was the fact f3 can be made safe. I’d probably use the other one now...

 

[Evil Canadian]

Not off of one tournament. Keep in mind this list was based off of all majors so far.

The top 8's nightwolf has been at?

And if thats the case then Johnny needs to be higher, Johnny has made top 8 in quite a few NRS pro tour tournaments, certainly more than characters like Noob.

Obviously that isn't the case because the list is a bit hypocritical basically. Putting opinion in for some characters, yet shutting out others because "lol no tournament results".

 

[xKMMx]

The top 8's nightwolf has been at?

And if thats the case then Johnny needs to be higher, Johnny has made top 8 in quite a few NRS pro tour tournaments, certainly more than characters like Noob.

Obviously that isn't the case because the list is a bit hypocritical basically. Putting opinion in for some characters, yet shutting out others because "lol no tournament results".

LOL so in your opinion you know more than this guy that is being paid to announce major tournaments because he has a deep knowledge of the game and is a former tournament pro?

 

[Evil Canadian]

LOL so in your opinion you know more than this guy that is being paid to announce major tournaments because he has a deep knowledge of the game and is a former tournament pro?

Well if you wanna put it that way with an ultimatum, then sure, yeah I do. Cause he says Kollector is bad, and he's dead wrong.

I also make my money and living off fighting games and have taught untold thousands of people FG's on every conceivable level over the years. His resume isn't something that intimidates me.

By your logic, who are you to doubt me? Shitty logic isn't it.

 

[Ram]

Cause he says Kollector is bad, and he's dead wrong.

How come? What I mean is, how can you objectively state that Kollector isn't bad?

 

[Evil Canadian]

How come? What I mean is, how can you objectively state that Kollector isn't bad?

Because he's actually good and I have put in laborious effort to show why he is good.

Lets reverse this.

Tell me why kollector is bad, and worse than Kotal, go ahead, lets see what you got.

 

[Ram]

Because he's actually good and I have put in laborious effort to show why he is good.

Lets reverse this.

Tell me why kollector is bad, and worse than Kotal, go ahead, lets see what you got.

I won't tell you Kollector is bad. I also won't tell you that he's good. I also won't tell you whether he is better or worse than Kotal. The reason I won't do any of these things is because in my opinion, how "good" or "bad" a character is depends on the player who is using them.

 

[trufenix]

I won't tell you Kollector is bad. I also won't tell you that he's good. I also won't tell you whether he is better or worse than Kotal. The reason I won't do any of these things is because in my opinion, how "good" or "bad" a character is depends on the player who is using them.

 

[Ram]

Sindel better close dat mouf

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

All moves hitting the way they are suppose to is a no brainer but variable frame data is essential to any fighting game as it is spacing dependent and directly tied to travel time of projectiles, active frames of moves, meaties, etc

Im talking about shit like Kitanas Edenian Razors being -6 to +1 randomly

 

[xKMMx]

Well if you wanna put it that way with an ultimatum, then sure, yeah I do. Cause he says Kollector is bad, and he's dead wrong.

I also make my money and living off fighting games and have taught untold thousands of people FG's on every conceivable level over the years. His resume isn't something that intimidates me.

By your logic, who are you to doubt me? Shitty logic isn't it.

You can say that but who is there to verify it? I mean I'm not saying its untrue that you make your money off of fighting games just that it's not verified. Where as we can all say we have seen plenty of this dude announcing so yea it stands to reason that he knows the game pretty much back and forth and upside down. SO my point is simply he has a reliable point of view.
But people will always debate and criticize anything with regard to tier lists despite not really not really being qualified. SHoot people even talk shit about Sonic Fox tier lists despite the fact he is in the Grand FInals for literally every major. At that point its like saying you know more about how to throw a football than Tom Brady

Also threw this in there so you can use the word ultimatum correctly next time you do so.

ul·ti·ma·tum
/ˌəltəˈmādəm/
noun
noun: ultimatum; plural noun: ultimata; plural noun: ultimatums

1. a final demand or statement of terms, the rejection of which will result in retaliation or a breakdown in relations.

 

[DixieFlatline78]

The top 8's nightwolf has been at?

And if thats the case then Johnny needs to be higher, Johnny has made top 8 in quite a few NRS pro tour tournaments, certainly more than characters like Noob.

Obviously that isn't the case because the list is a bit hypocritical basically. Putting opinion in for some characters, yet shutting out others because "lol no tournament results".

He did say it was a soft placement. The difference between Nightwolf and characters like Kollector and Raiden is we've actually seen a lot of high level players demonstrate his strengths. Like I also think Kollector is placed a too low but he doesnt seem familiar with him. It's similar to how people said Kung Lao was garbo until Foxy came back to him. And he was playing a very bare bones, near suboptimal take on him.

It's also like how the Topanga players said Zeku was the worst character in SFV S3 next to Vega and Ed. Then Momochi was maining him and winning a lot. They weren't stupid for being wrong about him

But I also currently main Kotal, I hear people say hes a completely useless character and I get similarly irritated. Like when a certain Youtube content creator said "he can jail off d3 but so can everyone else, so he lost this patch" as if Kotal doesnt have a powerful mixup on hit, leading to a damage buff into a setup/conditioning situation, or a combo, or a throw 50/50 where both options give oki and can load a KB.

Like hes definitely a weaker character, definitely bottom five, definitely not the best character to try and win a major with, but I'd really hesitate to call him an actual bad character.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

I'm not sure everyone realized this but every character is viable in this tier list just the bottom 5 are much harder to win a major than S Tiers.
Kollector got a lot better but I wouldn't say you could just main that character without pockets and place top 8's in every major unless you where godlike.

 

[xWildx]

Some (well, perhaps many... LOL) Kitana players will blow me up, but I think Highborn could be top tier if the razors functioned properly on both sides of the screen. b+1,4 xx razors does not jail consistently when Kitana is on the player 2 side which affects chip damage dealt.

However, when the razors jail consistently, b+1,4 xx razors does 6% of chip damage, 22% of damage, is more than +20 on hit, and can consistently be made at least -4 on block. +1 is feasible but depends on when the fans are released and whether the opponent blocks standing or crouching. Any character with such a strong tool is unlikely to be bottom 5. This tier list is strictly based on a character's tournament popularity and results so Kitana's placement is fair.

I wish content creators, or "influencers" to use NRS's vocabulary, spent as much time demanding that NRS fix the inconsistent hitboxes as they do making tier lists.

I’m genuinely curious to know what exactly is drawing you to Kitana over the other, more proper, zoners in the game. I’m sure you used other characters before her, she just doesn’t seem to fit the M2Dave bill like a Cetrion, Skarlet, or even Kabal would.

You may have mentioned it somewhere before, but I’d like to understand your reasoning.

 

[Edmund]

I think I agree with the majority with the list, my only grievance is that I believe he could remove some of this excess tiers and lump the S together and Lump the A together

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

I think I agree with the majority with the list, my only grievance is that I believe he could remove some of this excess tiers and lump the S together and Lump the A together

Yes I agree, I also think the C tier isn't needed and if there needs to be extras make it S, A+, A, B+, B
I feel everyone is viable and that has been proven in tournaments with Kotal making multiple top 24's and Shao Kahn making top 4 recently it goes to show you can use anyone. I do feel some are lacking and need pockets to make top 8's consistently and all characters need hitboxes fixed, some FB's need adjustments and a few KB's need better requirements and hurtboxes need adjustments. One if the mist notible examples of hurtboxes needing fixed is Liu Kang since he can throw and can't be punished in many situations by several characters. He isn't the only one, females have this issue and Shang after 114.
But other than that I feel characters are all beatable and useable aside from bad MU's.

 

[Tony at Home]

I think a tier list that is strictly based on tournament results is impressively redundant

It has all the downsides of tier lists (arbitrary soulless almagamation of data) and none of the upsides (promoting interesting discussions)

What characters are performing as we expect?
What characters are overlooked?
What characters are overrated?

You can really only get those discussions once you accept that tournament results don't tell the full story.

 

[Skylight1]

li can understand why people are confused by this their list but remember what he said it's based on. It's not based on what characters can do it's based on tournament results. Tournament players tend to use characters they feel they have the best chance of winning with. So because nobody is really doing anything with the characters he has in the bottom 5 he rightly assumes that these characters must be lacking something otherwise they would be placed higher. So like he says in the video until someone comes out a blows the scene up like whiteboi did with his scarecrow they have to be at the bottom of his tournament based tier list.

So we really thinking that Scorpion can't win a tournament but D'vorah can!? And the only thing about Whiteboi is Scarecrow was always okay just no one ever used him however outside of him, NO ONE else used Scarecrow and got the results that Whiteboi did. Same with SonicFox and Cassie Cage in this game and the only one to call him and the community out on it was Tekken Master. We've seen no results besides Sonic's EVO win with Cassie so to say this is "based off of tournament results", is quite ludicrous because we've NEVER seen D'vorah, Shang, Jax, Kabal or a slew of these guys actually win a tournament.

 

[M2Dave]

I’m genuinely curious to know what exactly is drawing you to Kitana over the other, more proper, zoners in the game. I’m sure you used other characters before her, she just doesn’t seem to fit the M2Dave bill like a Cetrion, Skarlet, or even Kabal would.

You may have mentioned it somewhere before, but I’d like to understand your reasoning.

What is a honestly considered a "proper" zoning character in this game when rush down characters like Geras and Sonya are able to compete in, or sometimes even win, the zoning war against most zoning characters? By the way, I am not downplaying zoning because access to a projectile that demands respect does affect match ups.

Kitana does a very good job at controlling the pace of the match with fans, sais, and dive kicks and she is also efeective up close with razors so she is a complete character. The only issue is the lack of consistency of the razors, which I have already ranted enough about.

Edit: Rooflemonger also did a tier list today.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

What is a honestly considered a "proper" zoning character in this game when rush down characters like Geras and Sonya are able to compete in, or sometimes even win, the zoning war against most zoning characters? By the way, I am not downplaying zoning because access to a projectile that demands respect does affect match ups.

Kitana does a very good job at controlling the pace of the match with fans, sais, and dive kicks and she is also efeective up close with razors so she is a complete character. The only issue is the lack of consistency of the razors, which I have already ranted enough about.

Edit: Rooflemonger also did a tier list today.

I actually like Roofles tier list better than K&M's.
What do you think of it @Evil Canadian?
Minor disagreements with it compared to the several on K&Ms.

 

[Eh SnOwY]

What is a honestly considered a "proper" zoning character in this game when rush down characters like Geras and Sonya are able to compete in, or sometimes even win, the zoning war against most zoning characters? By the way, I am not downplaying zoning because access to a projectile that demands respect does affect match ups.

Kitana does a very good job at controlling the pace of the match with fans, sais, and dive kicks and she is also efeective up close with razors so she is a complete character. The only issue is the lack of consistency of the razors, which I have already ranted enough about.

Edit: Rooflemonger also did a tier list today.

i like this list more

 

[DixieFlatline78]

K&M's is more about how the meta looks at the moment, Roofle's is about actual character strength