K&M Post-patch/Celtic Throwdown Tier List

[NothingPersonal]

Re-goddamn-diculous.

 

[DeftMonk]

Yeah I asked him about Shang, Scarlet and Liu Kang.
Shang I know is controversial and many mains feel he is bottom including my brother. I do feel he is still strong just not S tier strong. I feel he is about A Tier. But I'll wait for their breakdown.

Scarlet got so much stronger since last patch. She is incredibly strong Close, Footsie range and far and has tools to deal with anything and anti wakeup setups and many tools for pressure with amazing range.

Liu Kang the new Evil. I feel he is absolutely strong but I don't think he is #1 maybe Top 5-10. The main variation Luohan Quan received several nerfs notibly to his F3 which is where his most damage cones from and now its punishable and unsafe and no longer hitconfirmable into safety. The only buff he got in that variation was jailing but its worth noting he had all these tools prepatch. So I don't see the leap considering all the top tiers are very much still very good and should hold 1-5 in S Tier especially Sonya, Geras, Cetrion, Jacqui and Jax who are still very very good.

But I'm excited to hear there explanations when they drop their YouTube video.

I haven’t played much after patch...f3 can’t jail into the low for safety now?

 

[Error404]

Seems like a bad list honestly. Who does D'vora beat , to deserve such a spot? What about Kollector ? Who beats him hard enough for him to be Bottom 3 ? How is Shao Kahn better than anyone? Because VideoGamesYo showed up ? Character still has 0 usable strings. Why is Scorpion all of a sudden so low , despite the nerf barely making his MUs worse? Is there even any factoring of MUs in these tier lists? Probably not.

 

[GLoRToR]

Tear lists.

 

[Eddy Wang]

Kollector is just hiding out at the bottom undercover, biding his time until he shows up to wreck fools and kollect his kash.

Word is he slipped Mustard some change for his placement in this tier list

Lots of ppl will enter his backpack soon

 

[NothingPersonal]

I think Nightwolf is overrated. Better than Jaqcqui? Pls. Dvorah, Noob and Erron Better than Jax? Pls. Oh my days Mustard, what have you done?

 

[JJParker]

li can understand why people are confused by this their list but remember what he said it's based on. It's not based on what characters can do it's based on tournament results. Tournament players tend to use characters they feel they have the best chance of winning with. So because nobody is really doing anything with the characters he has in the bottom 5 he rightly assumes that these characters must be lacking something otherwise they would be placed higher. So like he says in the video until someone comes out a blows the scene up like whiteboi did with his scarecrow they have to be at the bottom of his tournament based tier list.

 

[Snoop88]

Do a tier list based on tournaments and place Nightwolf in S... Hmmm

 

[JJParker]

Do a tier list based on tournaments and place Nightwolf in S... Hmmm

He said that was a hypothetical placement. Which is why he left him till last and didn't include him in the proper list.

 

[WhamBamThanxSam]

Shao Kahn better than kitana? Mmmm I think not.... not that this is saying much about either of them lol

Shao Kahn is absolutely better than Kitana

 

[GLoRToR]

Shao Kahn is absolutely better than Kitana

How so?

 

[WhamBamThanxSam]

How so?

I'm just going by experience fighting the two. Shao Kahn has good wakeups, good damage, and good range on his normals. Kitana doesnt seem to have anything better than mediocre to me. Maybe I'm missing something.

 

[GLoRToR]

I'm just going by experience fighting the two. Shao Kahn has good wakeups, good damage, and good range on his normals. Kitana doesnt seem to have anything better than mediocre to me. Maybe I'm missing something.

How much did you lab each character?

 

[M.D.]

Cage higher than Frost and Scorpion.

Man that's some strong alternate universe you got there bud.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

Other than Kabal and Scorpion being too low, seems pretty legit to me.

 

[MsMiharo]

Please watch the video before you comment. For instance he makes a case for where HE THINKS Nightwolf might be, but is very cautious about placing him since he is not tournament legal yet.

Furthermore Kollector is definitely bottom to me, the patch gave him bigger combos, yes, but didn't fix any of his issues (his issue was not damage). Same with Kano. They're both better but so is the rest of the cast (perhaps not Kotal but it's always harder to judge characters that aren't really played).

 

[M2Dave]

I thought Kitana was top because of all that chip though? lol

Some (well, perhaps many... LOL) Kitana players will blow me up, but I think Highborn could be top tier if the razors functioned properly on both sides of the screen. b+1,4 xx razors does not jail consistently when Kitana is on the player 2 side which affects chip damage dealt.

However, when the razors jail consistently, b+1,4 xx razors does 6% of chip damage, 22% of damage, is more than +20 on hit, and can consistently be made at least -4 on block. +1 is feasible but depends on when the fans are released and whether the opponent blocks standing or crouching. Any character with such a strong tool is unlikely to be bottom 5. This tier list is strictly based on a character's tournament popularity and results so Kitana's placement is fair.

I wish content creators, or "influencers" to use NRS's vocabulary, spent as much time demanding that NRS fix the inconsistent hitboxes as they do making tier lists.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

I haven’t played much after patch...f3 can’t jail into the low for safety now?

No liu Kangs F3333xxShaolinStance 3
Now has less pushback and blockstun which made a gap and its punishable after as well.
Liu Kang is still good just dangerous to go for his damage from F3 and its 13f startup so not the best wiff/punisher vs top tiers.
WSL is getting good damage from F4/B1/123 with buff active.

The only thing LQ got buffed was his jailing from pokes, it has a 5f window to jail. Incredibly strong though but the rest where nerfs.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

Some (well, perhaps many... LOL) Kitana players will blow me up, but I think Highborn could be top tier if the razors functioned properly on both sides of the screen. b+1,4 xx razors does not jail consistently when Kitana is on the player 2 side which affects chip damage dealt.

However, when the razors jail consistently, b+1,4 xx razors does 6% of chip damage, 22% of damage, is more than +20 on hit, and can consistently be made at least -4 on block. +1 is feasible but depends on when the fans are released and whether the opponent blocks standing or crouching. Any character with such a strong tool is unlikely to be bottom 5. This tier list is strictly based on a character's tournament popularity and results so Kitana's placement is fair.

I wish content creators, or "influencers" to use NRS's vocabulary, spent as much time demanding that NRS fix the inconsistent hitboxes as they do making tier lists.

I could do without buffs or nerfs, I just want hitboxes/hurtboxes(liu kang) fixed for every character.

• No mid move should wiff on crouch blocking Opponents.
• No high move should wiff on standing opponents in range.
• no move should hit behind the character
• no move should have alternating frame data on block/hit/wiff.
• all moves should connect consistently when within range.

 

[Name v.5.0]

I could do without buffs or nerfs, I just want hitboxes/hurtboxes(liu kang) fixed for every character.

• No mid move should wiff on crouch blocking Opponents.
• No high move should wiff on standing opponents in range.
• no move should hit behind the character
• no move should have alternating frame data on block/hit/wiff.
• all moves should connect consistently when within range.

"That's just depth, bro!" - Paulo

 

[deathstroke187]

shang is way too high on that list , scorp and sub is way too low , erron too high , jax too low. johny down played this tier list is bad

 

[Wetdoba]

I could do without buffs or nerfs, I just want hitboxes/hurtboxes(liu kang) fixed for every character.

• No mid move should wiff on crouch blocking Opponents.
• No high move should wiff on standing opponents in range.
• no move should hit behind the character
• no move should have alternating frame data on block/hit/wiff.
• all moves should connect consistently when within range.

All moves hitting the way they are suppose to is a no brainer but variable frame data is essential to any fighting game as it is spacing dependent and directly tied to travel time of projectiles, active frames of moves, meaties, etc

 

[SaSSolino]

This tier list is terrible in various places, but Scorpion and Sub Zero being this low is what takes the cake.

 

[fr stack]

Please listen to how he made this list . Its made ON TOURNAMENT PLACINGS thats why some stuff seems skewed

 

[xKMMx]

I already had a good argue with him on twitter, but he's an absolute slave to tournament results it would seem to the point of it not making much sense. Puts Kollector as worse than Kotal Kahn, because Kollector hasn't had a bit splash in tournaments yet, like what? haha.

The logic makes sense though with regard to tournament placings. He prefaced his entire commentary by saying that Tier lists matter mostly at the highest level of play and proceeds to make his list based on how characters have been used at the highest level.
In my opinion this is accurate logic because the highest level players are going to be the ones that use characters to their utmost potential and if they aren't able to take a character like Kollector and use his tools to overcome characters that are in the highest of tiers then its safe to assume those tools just aren't enough to over come a bad match up when all other things are equal.
However online when you have players matching up of widely varying skill levels that don't know every match up inside and out you can have a Liu Kang player get mopped by a Kollector player that just out plays the Liu Kang player so the tier list means nothing in that situation because all things are not equal.
This is how I think about it anyway.