Match-up Discussion Johnny Cage Mu chart

[Mikemetroid]

Glad to see you join the ranks of reasonable human beings.

uh i mean, 114flipkick beats everything.

NO seriously fuck Sonya. D4 is hard to b3 on reaction, its hard to punish, ex cartwheel is hard to counter without any meter. Her mixups are too strong and she wins at zoning. Oh and 7f dive kick. fuck shit fuck.

It seems like an up hill battle every time i play the match. So who do you think beats cage?

Sonya
Kabal
Kenshi
Freddy
Sub

Anyone else?

Kitana is debatable... I'm not too sure. Dizzy knows because he has the most experience with the matchup.

 

[Playpal]

I had Sonya v JC 6-4 for months until after I played hundreds of games vs Death. I've got this as 5-5. F3 is faster than d4.

 

[Mikemetroid]

I had Sonya v JC 6-4 for months until after I played hundreds of games vs Death. I've got this as 5-5. F3 is faster than d4.

okay but 7frame divekick. options my man, sonya has way more options than just d4.

 

[Playpal]

okay but 7frame divekick. options my man, sonya has way more options than just d4.

Dive kick is 10f at the fastest. Space yourself correctly and you can whiff punish dive kick. It's also punishable on block. Just don't d3 a lot.

 

[Mikemetroid]

Dive kick is 10f at the fastest. Space yourself correctly and you can whiff punish dive kick. It's also punishable on block. Just don't d3 a lot.

It also has priority. I always seem to get beat by that move. Of course its punishable, but I'm just saying that she has more options than Cage does up close.

 

[Playpal]

If the MU is 6-4, which it might be, it's only because of ex cartwheel. That gives cage more problems than anything because any sort of advantage or opening you might have becomes dangerous to capitalize on.

 

[Mikemetroid]

If the MU is 6-4, which it might be, it's only because of ex cartwheel. That gives cage more problems than anything because any sort of advantage or opening you might have becomes dangerous to capitalize on.

EX Cartwheel plus she wins in the Zoning side.

 

[Playpal]

EX Cartwheel plus she wins in the Zoning side.

What zoning? Her projectile is hardly something sonya can use to keep jc out. If you're referring to sonya's d4 to cover space, that's all footsies, which imo is even.

 

[Mikemetroid]

What zoning? Her projectile is hardly something sonya can use to keep jc out. If you're referring to sonya's d4 to cover space, that's all footsies, which imo is even.

I'm saying in the sense that its better than Cage's forceball.

 

[Playpal]

I'm saying in the sense that its better than Cage's forceball.

Her and about 28 other characters. Her fireball isn't good enough to pose a serious threat in this MU.

 

[Mikemetroid]

Her and about 28 other characters. Her fireball isn't good enough to pose a serious threat in this MU.

I'm out of anything. gg sir.

 

[G4S Claude VonStroke]

I'm out of anything. gg sir.

lol

 

[Dizzy]

Claude VonStroke

I think the only other match that for sure is disadvantage that isn't on that list is against Cyrax. There others that are questionable if its 5-5 or otherwise.

Mikemetroid

Yup, its a pain to fight her. Dealing with D4 "on reaction" is impossible, its too fast, you have to already be anticipating it to deal with it. Dive kick at its fastest is 10f btw.

Playpal

Point blank sure, but she won't be using d4 then. If you mean using f3 as a footsies tool trying to get in on sonya (and most any char) that is a death wish. You have to already be in her grill, well within d4 range for f3 to be effective.

 

[G4S Claude VonStroke]

Claude VonStroke

I think the only other match that for sure is disadvantage that isn't on that list is against Cyrax. There others that are questionable if its 5-5 or otherwise.

For the LONGEST time i said cage loses to cyrax and I got laughed at. So Then after learning the MU really well I just say it's 5-5 but no way cage advantage. But why do you think cage loses because I'm currently at a 5-5 from playing winter wars and j360 a lot.

 

[Playpal]

JC's f3 excels in footsies, whether it's to beat out another string or to whiff punish. D3 isn't guaranteed to be the safer option in this MU as dive kick can blow that up.

 

[zaf]

MITDJT
Denzell

I also believe ermac cage is even. 5-5

On top of what has already been said, there is something else only I do with ermac (I have seen big d do this too)

That would be WHIFFING normals mid- full screen.

I like to whiff a standing 1, to make it look like i am doing a forcepush.
Standing 1 and tkp start up look the same. You can see me do this vs Tyrant and Death at NEC.
They both fell for standing 1 ( whiff) into a TKP.
People like to think they can come on me when i do this, but they are wrong.
Don't start saying you will read this, because i mix this the fuck up, EVERYTIME.
Standing 1 TKP
Standing 1 dash away
Standing 1 dash in grab
Standing 1 cross over.
ETC, you can see where I am going with this.

Why does this work? THis works because of how Ermac zoning game works. People Fear the tkp and tks and i exploit this.

SO even though TKP is punishable, there are ways to make the move work to your advantage.

THIS was not brought up. THIS heavily effects the mu.
Cage is not going to just sit there if i whiff a standing 1. He might move, or if he does sit there, i can dash in and grab or cross up.
I can even dash in and do an advancing iafb ( there are three types of iafb, back, neutral and advancing)

TO add to this, I also whiff d3 to do the same effect. Works just as well.

 

[YOMI MITYEAP]

MITDJT
Denzell

I also believe ermac cage is even. 5-5

On top of what has already been said, there is something else only I do with ermac (I have seen big d do this too)

That would be WHIFFING normals mid- full screen.

I like to whiff a standing 1, to make it look like i am doing a forcepush.
Standing 1 and tkp start up look the same. You can see me do this vs Tyrant and Death at NEC.
They both fell for standing 1 ( whiff) into a TKP.
People like to think they can come on me when i do this, but they are wrong.
Don't start saying you will read this, because i mix this the fuck up, EVERYTIME.
Standing 1 TKP
Standing 1 dash away
Standing 1 dash in grab
Standing 1 cross over.
ETC, you can see where I am going with this.

Why does this work? THis works because of how Ermac zoning game works. People Fear the tkp and tks and i exploit this.

SO even though TKP is punishable, there are ways to make the move work to your advantage.

THIS was not brought up. THIS heavily effects the mu.
Cage is not going to just sit there if i whiff a standing 1. He might move, or if he does sit there, i can dash in and grab or cross up.
I can even dash in and do an advancing iafb ( there are three types of iafb, back, neutral and advancing)

TO add to this, I also whiff d3 to do the same effect. Works just as well.

solid input for sure, i'm going to keep it 6 4 for the main reason that ermac has way too much trouble escaping pressure. Correct me if i'm wrong, but isn' this d3 negative on hit? if that is the case, he has no true safe way out of his pressure.

 

[zaf]

Thats not true.

D1 is +1 on standing hit
D3 is +5 on crouch hit.

I can also make you respect tks by interruptibg your f3 pressure with d1~tks. It may be a risk, but if used right will work for me.

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

I definetly agree cage quan is 7 3, being one of the matchups i play everyday. HGTV DrFlash44 said it first a long time ago and a couple of months ago i took his side. Imo Ermac is slight advantage to cage, but it could be listed as 5 5 or 6 4. Sonya blade, I used to very recently believe that this was 5 5 but after getting more matchup experience (and picking her up myself) it is definetly her advantage.

 

[YOMI MITYEAP]

Thats not true.

D1 is +1 on standing hit
D3 is +5 on crouch hit.

I can also make you respect tks by interruptibg your f3 pressure with d1~tks. It may be a risk, but if used right will work for me.

d1 is a horrible counterpoke option, can be used but very risky and i'd avoid using it unless the opponent isn't aware of how unsafe it is. when cage is doing f3s, he's standing up so d3 will put you at no advantage at all. Also if d1 hits, +1 won't save him from pressure and he has a juicy hitbox. A big issue is mac has no trace of armor, so getting out of cage's pressure won't be easy, but like i said, i'll just run the match with good ermac players, my bro wouldn't mind doing that as well.

 

[YOMI MITYEAP]

ermac vs johnny is 5-5
how could it be in his favor? does ermac start the match pre-nut punched?
believe me i could zone cage easily. I just think you guys havent fought alot of good ermacs.
its basically like this ermac wins if he keeps him out, johnny wins if he touches him. And a smart ermac controls space and postioning very carefully, using his meter to stay out of the corner.

look at it like this, if kenshi has an advantage, ermac has gotta be even.
what does cage have on ermac's zoning? Red kick? full combo punishable on block and on hit sends me where i wanna be, away from cage? and if he doesn't have full meter now he doesn't have breaker, bad idea against ermac.
all you have to do is play it similarly to how pig played kenshi vs curbo. avoid giving him a a knockdown to get close, this means unbreakerable damage. make him have to dash block to get to you, watch out for djk. while hes doing this the ermac player has to walk backwards to buy time and make it harder for him to position that djk. ermac has the 3rd fastest walk speed in the game btw.
he also has the longest range grab in the game and it sends you full screen. and to slow down an impeding dash blocker an ermac player might be walking back ward than all of a sudden dash forward to throw him or f4 him into a throw settup. when you start dashing in without blocking.. ill make it look like im gonna throw you by dashing in, but guess what i force pushed you at point blank. if u decide to jump in standing 1 owns hard bro.
standing 1, lift, forcepush 20% unbreakerable damage and you're full screen. and you can bet ill breaker and start walking backward if u ever get in too.

my main points are, he doesn't have good ways out of pressure, he has a big hitbox, and tkp really doesn't keep him away for long. iafb for mac is a good tool, but once he is close then this tool is risky. Kenshi has armor, a 50 50 with his low f3 and overhead b2, and shoulder is only -8 on block while tkp is like -13 or something on block. Kenshi's d3 is way better than macs. Good points, but i'm keeping it 6 4. If cage gives reptile problems and reptile has some dangerous zoning tools and a solid d4, i couldn't see mac going even with him.

 

[Tom Brady]

Sub beats Cage 6-4.

 

[YOMI MITYEAP]

Sub beats Cage 6-4.

i keep trying to tell ppl this, even dizzy agrees, that mu is hard for cage to do what he usually is able to do. He has no solid armor move to deal with ice clones and if sub corners cage, it isn't good news for cage at all haha. Sub's d4 is great to deal with pressure and it is safe on block.

 

[Tom Brady]

The MU is def winnable so people who throw up that DJT lost to Curbo and Dizzy means not too much. Curbo is one of the very best as is Dizzy and Dizzy is the best Cage on earth. Throwing up that DJT lost to great players in a close MU doesnt make it even. How many Cage's has DJT beaten with Sub? You have to take that into consideration then if you are going to consider his losses to Cage's.

Bottom line is that it is at the very least a slight adv for Sub-Zero, but it is winnable for Cage.

Sub holds the lead easier then Cage. When Cage has the lead, Sub can approach Cage easier then Cage can approach Sub when Sub has the lead.

 

[Illmatix]

yea his d4 although slow, is a good tool to keep him outside of sweep