General/Other - Johnny Cage Johnny Cage General Discussion Thread

[Name v.5.0]

Oh hey, SD Johnny gets 70% in the corner! Was this known? After the nut punch you're guaranteed 3.75% chip that's safe for 73.75, or 5% chip that's unsafe for 75%. You can also get a probable 1,1~throw for a total of 83%.

It's practical if you're not big on blowing your meter, but with Johnny I feel like I never have any.

 

[smokey]

FYI: These are nearly impossible online without a 4 bar connection. I can nail them pretty well offline, but damn does this suck online. The whole thing is dependent on your d1 timing. You have to do it as soon as possible.

Offline if you hit the early d1 you can get; f24 d1 f24 d1 f3 nut punch 28% no stamina. Hard though!

 

[Name v.5.0]

Offline if you hit the early d1 you can get; f24 d1 f24 d1 f3 nut punch 28% no stamina. Hard though!

I ran into that one, but I seemed to notice smaller characters falling out easier. Inconsistencies on Mileena and Cassie so I omitted it.

 

[Movieland KerrHolden]

FYI: These are nearly impossible online without a 4 bar connection. I can nail them pretty well offline, but damn does this suck online. The whole thing is dependent on your d1 timing. You have to do it as soon as possible.

thanks so much for your effort, this is super helpful for me.

i was messing up the d1 timing but I've got it now!

 

[Movieland KerrHolden]

Offline if you hit the early d1 you can get; f24 d1 f24 d1 f3 nut punch 28% no stamina. Hard though!

pree sure this also might be spacing dependent

 

[dribirut]

Also... Johnny cage fistcuffs is upper mid/ top. You guys are sleeping

 

[Phosferrax]

Also... Johnny cage fistcuffs is upper mid/ top. You guys are sleeping

JC is very good, and no one can know where definitely a character lays as MU's aren't fleshed out. I want no part in this talk of sleeping on fisticuffs. I've been saying it was good before you saw DJT using it.

 

[arthriticbasher]

for meter gain you can do f24 skrc d1 f3 np. not really that hard too online and it looks swaggy.

 

[Name v.5.0]

If we had S, A+,A, B, C, and D tiers, I think all 3 johnnys would be A. He has almost all the tools needed to get the job done, but others have a few extra tools. You have to rightfully bump him down a hair. He sure as shit aint no Spectral Ermac, or Relentless Jason.

However, I highly doubt top 10. Close though.

Edit: If you broke it down to 27 characters by 3 variations that's 81. Johnny's variations would sit around the 30-45 range.

 

[Movieland KerrHolden]

Also... Johnny cage fistcuffs is upper mid/ top. You guys are sleeping

yaaaa johnny's got such a good base set of tools that the special properties he receives from variation choice are all icing on the cake. he might very well be the most well balanced character in the game as far as the usefulness of all his variations go. fisticuffs doesn't get too talked about around here because its the most linear and basic of the three; what is there to say or expand upon that hasn't already been said?

- b12 is really good
- his fireballs with the fist bump buff are really good.

That's really about it other then inherent JC stuff that all three variations have.

additionally, there is an inverse to what you are suggesting; people are sleeping on fisticuffs weaknesses. fisticuffs is probably the most match up dependent variation; the tools he receives in the variation are really really good against some characters (quan for example), but not really spectacular against others who have ways of dealing with the pressure b12 offers or getting around the better fireball zoning the variation has. there's gaps in the pressure people aren't aware of.

all 3 variations of JC should be used in competitive play

 

[dribirut]

yaaaa johnny's got such a good base set of tools that the special properties he receives from variation choice are all icing on the cake. he might very well be the most well balanced character in the game as far as the usefulness of all his variations go. fisticuffs doesn't get too talked about around here because its the most linear and basic of the three; what is there to say or expand upon that hasn't already been said?

- b12 is really good
- his fireballs with the fist bump buff are really good.

That's really about it other then inherent JC stuff that all three variations have.

additionally, there is an inverse to what you are suggesting; people are sleeping on fisticuffs weaknesses. fisticuffs is probably the most match up dependent variation; the tools he receives in the variation are really really good against some characters (quan for example), but not really spectacular against others who have ways of dealing with the pressure b12 offers or getting around the better fireball zoning the variation has. there's gaps in the pressure people aren't aware of.

all 3 variations of JC should be used in competitive play

Even with the gap in b121 it's realllllly easy to stagger b12 and Punish the armor. Peiple go into b12121 too fast. You need to stagger b1/b12/b121. All you need to do is stagger for like 1/10 of a second to see if they're mashinf reversal armor

 

[dribirut]

JC is very good, and no one can know where definitely a character lays as MU's aren't fleshed out. I want no part in this talk of sleeping on fisticuffs. I've been saying it was good before you saw DJT using it.

All I've been hearing is that he's lower mid to low and how its just a gimmick variation.. Those people are so wrong

 

[Phosferrax]

All I've been hearing is that he's lower mid to low and how its just a gimmick variation.. Those people are so wrong

The truth is that most of the actual JC players on these forums know that he is good, but everyone else has been saying, up until they saw DJT, that JC isn't very good.

Most people opinions were formed on pre-patch Fisticuffs as well. It has since received a buff that has actually made b121 good.

 

[Movieland KerrHolden]

Even with the gap in b121 it's realllllly easy to stagger b12 and Punish the armor. Peiple go into b12121 too fast. You need to stagger b1/b12/b121. All you need to do is stagger for like 1/10 of a second to see if they're mashinf reversal armor

totally! i am in agreement with you that fisticuffs is good, but there are other factors (i.e. outside of the corner it can be backdashed) and characters who can control JC's ability to get in that specific space will give it problems. Characters who almost always have access to meter (d'vorrah, tanya) will be able to block/hit breaker it.

it is v good though, i just think its the most MU dependent, which is a double edged sword if you are planning on only using fisticuffs.

 

[Name v.5.0]

Fisty would be the best of JC's variations if he just didnt have to activate the stupid buff.

 

[Frosted 57]

Fisticuffs is okay, it certainly isn't garbage. That said it is definitely his worst variation. One of it's biggest flaws is that F3 is almost unusable in neutral against anyone with a 8f reversal or a 7f combo starting normal because he has no way to make it safe. If he spends meter on ExForceballs to make it safe it pushes him back out to range where 1, b1 and 2 all miss. This makes it very difficult for him to approach. The b121 string is much better now... but it is still gimmicky. Most of it is getting by on people not fully understanding it. The literal only buff I want is a way to make f3 safe in fisticuffs without being pushed out. Ideally with Fistbump in a similar way of subs aura, just maybe not plus on block.

 

[Movieland KerrHolden]

knuckle duster making f3 somewhere between 0 and -4 on block would be dope!

 

[Phosferrax]

Fisticuffs is okay, it certainly isn't garbage. That said it is definitely his worst variation. One of it's biggest flaws is that F3 is almost unusable in neutral against anyone with a 8f reversal or a 7f combo starting normal because he has no way to make it safe. If he spends meter on ExForceballs to make it safe it pushes him back out to range where 1, b1 and 2 all miss. This makes it very difficult for him to approach. The b121 string is much better now... but it is still gimmicky. Most of it is getting by on people not fully understanding it. The literal only buff I want is a way to make f3 safe in fisticuffs without being pushed out. Ideally with Fistbump in a similar way of subs aura, just maybe not plus on block.

I disagree with your opinion that it's gimmicky. It's very dangerous, as there is no way to know when he is going to stop the string, you just have to try to react, And at that, Cage has all the options he needs to deal with the opponents options.

 

[Frosted 57]

I disagree with your opinion that it's gimmicky. It's very dangerous, as there is no way to know when he is going to stop the string, you just have to try to react, And at that, Cage has all the options he needs to deal with the opponents options.

Outside of the corner every character can back dash after every 2 in the string. There is no guessing if he is going to stop, it is just when you want to back dash. Yes if the cage has the soul read on a back dash he can catch it, but you cannot react to a back dash.

 

[Wrath0594]

Also... Johnny cage fistcuffs is upper mid/ top. You guys are sleeping

It only got decent after the 1st patch. Before that, it was trash, as we all said.

 

[Name v.5.0]

At least SD and A-List have cancels and trickery for + frames. Fisty can fall short in that area. It's tough to open up anyone who knows how to block JC.

 

[Bryck Walle]

At least SD and A-List have cancels and trickery for + frames. Fisty can fall short in that area. It's tough to open up anyone who knows how to block JC.

But that's just it, Fisty isn't meant for opening up. It's meant for chip damage.

 

[Frosted 57]

But that's just it, Fisty isn't meant for opening up. It's meant for chip damage.

That might be reasonable if SD and A-list didn't also have comparable/arguably better chip setups. Fisticuffs doesn't deal this godly amount of chip people believe. It is almost never correct to activate Fistbump in a fight, because the activation time is too long and if you end a combo with it you are losing more damage than you will gain. B121 string does an average amount of chip.

 

[Phosferrax]

Outside of the corner every character can back dash after every 2 in the string. There is no guessing if he is going to stop, it is just when you want to back dash. Yes if the cage has the soul read on a back dash he can catch it, but you cannot react to a back dash.

That's needed though; if it was like it is in the corner it would be completely stupid.

 

[Wrath0594]

Fisticuffs feels perfectly viable right now, but it just relies on baiting out armor and watching your opponent's meter. It gets solid meter build and decent chip. The buff is quick enough to get on knockdowns like f34 and what not the way SD can get free clones sometimes. All anyone's saying is that it seems to be the weakest relative to the the other two, not that it's weak on its own.

As people have said, A-List and SD both have block strings utilizing their + frames that can build meter almost as efficiently, more efficiently at times because they aren't as susceptible to being backdashed. They also get the neutral tools, f3, and flat out better mixup games which lead to powerful combos. Fisticuffs is good, the other 2 are better, all anyone is saying.