Jax's F413 String vs Low hitbox

[Metzos]

Yeap Foxy has a point here. If he cant use properly his best string what will Jax do ?

 

[CD jr]

How can it be 5-5? Cage is better up close than Jax, as well as being better at mid range too, he has worse zoning but Jax's zoning is no way to keep Cage out.

Sonya beats Jax anywhere on the screen since that any move she makes she can technically get a mixup shes too fast and damaging.

I just wanna know why you think its 5-5. I might have an answer for it I might not. But right now with everything we are aware of with Jax it seems like he shouldnt stand a chance against either of them.

I wouldnt need to ask Maxter or Riu anything because I know what I've seen and I have played against Jax probably more times than either of them have. On top of that its not just them 2 characters that follow the same rule that fucks Jax up. If Jax cant use his best string whats he gonna be doing?

dude im done with this thread believe whatever you want.i thank you though for exposing shit like this now people will have to stfu and stop thinking jax is s tier.im just gonna say this jax f413 is not his best string and he doesnt need to get in to win he forces you to play his game with gp cancels.i dont wanna argue with you foxy really but when you play a good jax offline me or tyrant then you can prove your point.lets just leave it like this lets not ruin this thread im telling you right now in front of everyone you win.now if you wanna keep on thats on you im out of here.

 

[shura30]

lol ok you know what foxy is Right cage and Sonya rape jax.I just remembered why I don't post on threads like this one.have [MENTION=6624]Maxter[/MENTION] or[MENTION=278]Riu48[/MENTION] explain to you why the matchup is 5-5 I'm not gonna waste my time.

advice from top players are always appreciated
thanks for your deep contribution

f0xy is asking: how can jax compete at this time where his best and arguably only midscreen option is gone
and gone as completely wasted and useless


proedit:

but when you play a good jax offline me or tyrant then you can prove your point

aaaaaaaaaand here it is at last

i fucking love when they do this

 

[CD jr]

[MENTION=6564]shura30[/MENTION] read this and read this carefully.if you know a little about sf you know yun is the best in the game right?ok now im not comparing yun with jax cause unlike yun jax is not the best in the game.my point is this,in the U.S no yun player wins tornaments none.people were saying oh zangief,bison,honda are bad mathups for him.until daigo and kasunoko came to the U.S and raped everyone with yun.why? because they are the best yun players.daigo and kasunoko=me and tyrant in a way.foxy wants to prove he is right? or any sonya cage player out there will have to face me and tyrant before making stupid matchup discussions. ok now im really out of this thread so dont bother quoting me.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

dude im done with this thread believe whatever you want.i thank you though for exposing shit like this now people will have to stfu and stop thinking jax is s tier.im just gonna say this jax f413 is not his best string and he doesnt need to get in to win he forces you to play his game with gp cancels.i dont wanna argue with you foxy really but when you play a good jax offline me or tyrant then you can prove your point.lets just leave it like this lets not ruin this thread im telling you right now in front of everyone you win.now if you wanna keep on thats on you im out of here.

Well it doesnt matter how good the Jax player is, if they wanna press forward and 4, theyre gonna get punished for it, no 2 ways about it, if you wanna revert to his other punishable strings and specials by my guest. GP cancels are hardly a threat to a character like Sonya to be fair. You cant AA her because she has a divekick, and even if you block the divekick what you gonna punish it with? F413 or dash punch.

You cant cancel a GP into a block so do it at the wrong range and you lose half your life.

It was a simple question and all I asked for were some answers but you completely avoided the question and said exactly what Shura said you would say.
You and Tyrant arent the only Jax players on the planet, and you sure as hell arent the only GOOD Jax players too.

So are you gonna be reasonable to answer the question? The only reason people are challenging you is because you havent given one. Saying about playing offline is a stupid thing to say, especially to me considering I do.

This is how I look at it from a Sonya players POV:

F4/All variants including grabs and overhead smashes - Punishable by full combo
B124 - Parriable by some, pokeable by others
123 - interuptable by full combo
12 - Pokeable
2 1 / 2 2 - his only string that hits crouch blockers
2F2B1 - full combo punishable
GP/GP cancels - Why not just divekick if close, its either 45% of your life or 14% of mine if you block it and thats in the simplest form, she has an answer for a GP at every range on the screen. From full screen a whiffed arc kick into divekick will beat a GP
Dash punch - near enough useless since Jax suffers so much from her D4 that she'd most likely be abuse the move the entire game.

I just dont see how you can save your character from that especially against a character like Sonya who has a million and one ways to hurt you.

I'm not arguing I'm trying to get an explanation. You're defending your character saying that he can deal with it, but nobody else is looking at it that way at the moment.

 

[Robotic]

Sektor 21 teleport was captured on video - Ketchup did that in a tourney 2 months ago, I think. I don't know where the footage is.

Anywho, Jax touching Sektor wrong will 45% him. That matchup MUST be different now.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

Sektor 21 teleport was captured on video - Ketchup did that in a tourney 2 months ago, I think. I don't know where the footage is.

Anywho, Jax touching Sektor wrong will 45% him. That matchup MUST be different now.

Sektor gets a 12B1 combo everytime he blocks a F4 regardless of what the follow up is

 

[Robotic]

6 frame standing 1 yup. that's the 45 percenter I was talking about.

 

[UsedForGlue]

Yeah i know. Thats why i said its kinda hard to win against Jax with Ermac. Read the post Glue

Damm, my bad, read it wrong.

 

[Justice]

Well it doesnt matter how good the Jax player is, if they wanna press forward and 4, theyre gonna get punished for it, no 2 ways about it, if you wanna revert to his other punishable strings and specials by my guest. GP cancels are hardly a threat to a character like Sonya to be fair. You cant AA her because she has a divekick, and even if you block the divekick what you gonna punish it with? F413 or dash punch.

You cant cancel a GP into a block so do it at the wrong range and you lose half your life.

It was a simple question and all I asked for were some answers but you completely avoided the question and said exactly what Shura said you would say.
You and Tyrant arent the only Jax players on the planet, and you sure as hell arent the only GOOD Jax players too.

So are you gonna be reasonable to answer the question? The only reason people are challenging you is because you havent given one. Saying about playing offline is a stupid thing to say, especially to me considering I do.

This is how I look at it from a Sonya players POV:

F4/All variants including grabs and overhead smashes - Punishable by full combo
B124 - Parriable by some, pokeable by others
123 - interuptable by full combo
12 - Pokeable
2 1 / 2 2 - his only string that hits crouch blockers
2F2B1 - full combo punishable
GP/GP cancels - Why not just divekick if close, its either 45% of your life or 14% of mine if you block it and thats in the simplest form, she has an answer for a GP at every range on the screen. From full screen a whiffed arc kick into divekick will beat a GP
Dash punch - near enough useless since Jax suffers so much from her D4 that she'd most likely be abuse the move the entire game.

I just dont see how you can save your character from that especially against a character like Sonya who has a million and one ways to hurt you.

I'm not arguing I'm trying to get an explanation. You're defending your character saying that he can deal with it, but nobody else is looking at it that way at the moment.

Cherried for bullshit. You're dancing dangerously close to Fantasy Kombat dood. I know the technical aspects of your post are accurate, but saying this happens if CD Jr. does this is negating the truthfulness of your post.

The fact of the matter is, especially in tournament-level play, one mistake by a player and odds are, you're losing half a bar. Just because we have this knowldege doesn't mean Jax is any less dangerous than he was. Sure play-styles will need to be changed, BUT in the heat of battle there are things like mis-reads, jumping-the-gun, dropped kombos, etc. You can't guarantee that even if the f4 string is whipped out that you'll be able to react. All this information means is that it's now less safe to use. Nothing more.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

Cherried for bullshit. You're dancing dangerously close to Fantasy Kombat dood. I know the technical aspects of your post are accurate, but saying this happens if CD Jr. does this is negating the truthfulness of your post.

The fact of the matter is, especially in tournament-level play, one mistake by a player and odds are, you're losing half a bar. Just because we have this knowldege doesn't mean Jax is any less dangerous than he was. Sure play-styles will need to be changed, BUT in the heat of battle there are things like mis-reads, jumping-the-gun, dropped kombos, etc. You can't guarantee that even if the f4 string is whipped out that you'll be able to react. All this information means is that it's now less save to use. Nothing more.

Jax isnt gonna hit a character thats crouch blocking without using 21/22/F4 you can pretty much gaurantee a punish from a character like Sonya who can start a combo by mashing the same button twice (11). His overhead is slow enough to react to when its thrown out naked. There is no reading involved in it thats what I've been trying to say, see F4 mash buttons as a reaction and you're gonna get the punisher for it.

1 mistake against Jax isnt exactly much to fear, unless you're in the corner. This knowledge definitely means that he is considerably less dangerous than he was because its such an easy string to punish. Since I found it out I havent been having trouble doing it.

It wouldnt have been such a big thing if he didnt already have bad rushdown, average zoning, no air control, bad footsies

 

[UsedForGlue]

Jax isnt gonna hit a character thats crouch blocking without using 21/22/F4 you can pretty much gaurantee a punish from a character like Sonya who can start a combo by mashing the same button twice (11). His overhead is slow enough to react to when its thrown out naked. There is no reading involved in it thats what I've been trying to say, see F4 mash buttons as a reaction and you're gonna get the punisher for it.

1 mistake against Jax isnt exactly much to fear, unless you're in the corner. This knowledge definitely means that he is considerably less dangerous than he was because its such an easy string to punish. Since I found it out I havent been having trouble doing it.

It wouldnt have been such a big thing if he didnt already have bad rushdown, average zoning, no air control, bad footsies

People will can either look at the evidence and accept it, or just ignore it completely. And as I can see, no matter what evidence you put in front of them, it won't matter, so I wouldn't waste anymore of your time on it.

 

[M2Dave]

Just tested them all.

Low hit box characters:
Kung Lao - standing 1 combos, spin, 24
Reptile - standing 1 combos, standing 3, standing 2 acid ball, standing 2 invisibility, d4, dash
Cage - Standing 1 combos, b3, uppercut,
Mileena - standing 1 - standing 2 - standing 4 combos, d4, roll.
Sektor - uppercut, standing 1, 21 Teleport.
Sonya - standing 1 combos, d4 cartwheel
Jax - 123, 12-Overhead Smash, d4
Kabal - f4, d4 overhead, d4 dash cancel, standing 1, 11b3, enhanced dash, 21 Dash.
Quan chi - Uppercut, 11b2 Trance.
Skarlet - standing 1 combos, standing 4, d4

Non:
Scorpion
Lui kang
Sub zero
Sindel
Ermac
Kitana
Jade
Nightwolf
Cyrax - Thankfully
Noob Saibot
Smoke
Kano
Stryker
Shang
Baraka
Raiden
Cyber Sub Zero
Sheeva - Didn't even bother to test her.
Kenshi
Rain

According to the guy M2Dave, Jax is an S Teir character, which according to him, are characters with 2 bad match ups, but there are 10 characters that can punish him for using f4, and that list of 10 might not even include his two bad match ups that M2Dave listed.

NOTE: I have put in d4 for characters that have safe options after the D4, but all of these characters can gain d4 advantage on hit.

First of all, f+4,1,3 still jails some of those characters in the corner. Second of all, when did I claim that Jax was an S tier character?

By the way, is this supposed to be Europe's "I told you so" moment? As usual, you guys are slow. Master D. and I have known about Jax's f+4 weaknesses for a while now, and I have talked about them in the tier list thread before. Also, ask [MENTION=16]REO[/MENTION] what I told him about Jax as soon as he lost to CD Jr's Jax at Season's Beatings.

 

[TakeAChance]

why does everything have to turn into a NA vs Euro argument lol?

Thanks for the tips guys.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

First of all, f+4,1,3 still jails some of those characters in the corner. Second of all, when did I claim that Jax was an S tier character?

By the way, is this supposed to be Europe's "I told you so" moment? As usual, you guys are slow. Master D. and I have known about Jax's f+4 weaknesses for a while now, and I have talked about them in the tier list thread before. Also, ask [MENTION=16]REO[/MENTION] what I told him about Jax as soon as he lost to CD Jr's Jax at Season's Beatings.

.... First off read my first post, look what I said about the corner.

You're a real dick if you think this has anything to do with Europe or America. You couldnt have possibly known about it this way if you only consider Jax to have 3-4 bad matchups too.

This thread is a topic of discussion, not to help inflate your ego so either discuss or gtfo.

 

[Nick T.]

This is gonna sound random but see if different stances make a difference.

Open/open
Open/close
close / close

 

[Metzos]

By the way, is this supposed to be Europe's "I told you so" moment?

And this is why i rarely post anywhere else besides Ermac's forums. Because of this. Is this a contest of who found it 1st m2dave ? The guy just posted something that was worth posting and asked to be discussed. Yeah here in Greece we knew about this even before SVB 2K11. So ? We were supposed to brag about it ? Plz just stop with the US vs EU bullshit already.

 

[M2Dave]

why does everything have to turn into a NA vs Euro argument lol?

Thanks for the tips guys.

Foxy and his crew are taking credit for this so-called "new" discovery by belittling American players. They are basically saying "LOL. Jax, a D-tier character, won a major in the US." Never mind the fact that Europe has no Jax players who are anywhere close to CD Jr's level, some players in this community have already brought up Jax and f+4 many times before. In fact, I talked about these issues in the tier list thread.

Foxy does not get to point fingers at anybody. This man has made false assertions on several occasions.

 

[Metzos]

Never mind the fact that Europe has no Jax players who are anywhere close to CD Jr's level.

Again you are speaking not knowing there are other scenes out there who do the same stuff you guys do. Sorry but you are wrong.

 

[BookBurning]

[MENTION=6564]shura30[/MENTION] read this and read this carefully.if you know a little about sf you know yun is the best in the game right?ok now im not comparing yun with jax cause unlike yun jax is not the best in the game.my point is this,in the U.S no yun player wins tornaments none.people were saying oh zangief,bison,honda are bad mathups for him.until daigo and kasunoko came to the U.S and raped everyone with yun.why? because they are the best yun players.daigo and kasunoko=me and tyrant in a way.foxy wants to prove he is right? or any sonya cage player out there will have to face me and tyrant before making stupid matchup discussions. ok now im really out of this thread so dont bother quoting me.

This will make me sound like an ass for even nitpicking but I couldn't help it.

Fei Long is the best in the game right now technically, not Yun or Yang.

 

[M2Dave]

I am going by what Foxy said in the tier list thread.

Looks like Jax is goin down. Courtesy of eurotrash.

D-Tier

This is obviously an attempt to attack American players.

Foxy should be the last one to talk. He has made silly comments like "Sonya's rings go underneath Kabal's iaGBs" and "Ermac's iaTP is as good as Mileena's telekick".

 

[BookBurning]

This NA vs Europe crap is stupid and seriously needs to stop. You want the truth?

Europe even attempting to belittle American players in MK is the equivalent of NA or EU trying to belittle Korean Starcraft players; on the flipside I think NA players need to stop getting their panties in a bunch whenever they find something that offends them. Europe has their good players and alot of stupid shit has been said not only by EU players but ALSO by "pro" American players, alot. So pointing out comments from F0xy isn't that relevant. I once remember Tom Brady parading around that Sub-Zero would completely merc Sonya despite what some people had to say. Didn't work out so well for Sub. Hell there's even been moments where Reo was so firm about Kung Lao being godly that he went as far to say that he was near unbeatable in certain circumstances, and this was after a couple of patches to the character; after EVO.

Point is, the game is still fairly new and differing observations shouldn't really be used as ammo to fire at other players; on both sides. I think we really need to kind of stop taking stabs at eachother, especially when we haven't even had a chance to play eachother at all. European players need to stop acting disgruntled and NA players really need to stop having an inflated ego.

Can we just get back on topic?

 

[Evil_Riu48]

His zoning dont beat Sonya because even though he can GP under her rings she can just arc kick her way in and punish the GP before it even comes out with a divekick. Its just a losing battle all round by the looks of it. On top of that she probably has the best footsies in the game while a character like Jax has pretty crap footsies.

sonya does not beat jax at zonning and if your plan is to use arc kick that will not get you any where because arc kick is punishble on wiff as it is on block and did i talked about how slow the arc kick is?. . . do you think you will be punishing GP on reaction with arc kick!!! do you know how fast the gp recovers? like cdjr said jax make sonya play his game he force her to come to him


about this so call new found !!! this is nothing new to me or cdjr and you trying to say sonya destroy jax because of this is kind of funny because sonya has the same problem against characters with a low hit box like jax himself let me refresh your mind

so if we are going to say jax lose to all of this characters because they have a low hit box then we will have to say sonya lose to them as well righ?


what make jax good is not f413 is all of his tools together like his fast overhead that can be cancel to gotcha grab to be at + frames even on block and df2 which force you to duck more than you should because is 100% safe on block and he can check you with it if you are not respecting it and when you are respecting it this is when GP and GP cancel game start

 

[UsedForGlue]

the way, is this supposed to be Europe's "I told you so" moment? .

You are paranoid beyond belief. ''I told you so'' those are your own words.

 

[UsedForGlue]

They are basically saying "LOL. Jax, a D-tier character, won a major in the US."

Again...so much assumption and paranoia. Who said any of this besides you?