Jade General Discussion Thread

[haketh]

If you're seriously getting zoned out by Lui & not doing things like Reaction Glow to Fireballs theirs no reason to even continue discussing this

 

[GLoRToR]

Ok, go back and look at your post. You want her mid special to be -4. Which is safe. She can CANCEL THE OVERHEAD INTO SPECIAL MOVES.

I said some of those changes are mutually exclusive. Making her overhead faster and safe cancellable would indeed make her too powerful. It's an either-or.

If you're seriously getting zoned out by Lui & not doing things like Reaction Glow to Fireballs theirs no reason to even continue discussing this

Do you know Glow's frame data?
Do you know the frame data on Liu's fireball?

 

[Marinjuana]

Casual mode PSA: Jade's Delia's Dance is dramatically improved from the beta and it actually a very strong low special. The move actually grants useful hit advantage and can be amplified on block for safety, neither was true in the beta.

 

[Miasmata123]

I said some of those changes are mutually exclusive. Making her overhead faster and safe cancellable would indeed make her too powerful. It's an either-or.


Do you know Glow's frame data?
Do you know the frame data on Liu's fireball?

I do but more importantly I know from a certain distance when I see Liu Kang start up his fireball I am safe to Glow and nullify it.

Second, I see you harping on Jade's frames. Even calling them rubbish because they're all negative. You need to take a moment to look at every single other characters frame data and see how many positive strings they have. I am not 100% sure but nearly every single positive string can be flawless blocked at some point. Some, like Liu Kang's apparently OP 9f start up all mid +5 on block can actually be fully punished by Jade with a 212 during the gap. Her frames for her range are decent, if not on the good side. This isnt MkX anymore. Jades normals are the best part about her.

Second looking solely at her - frames dont tell the whole story. Her b2 is completely safe against a, say, a Baraka on block. His f4 will not reach in time to punish. Sure he can duck and punish, but that just means you got outplayed.

I really appreciate the work you do for Jade but you downplaying her in every single topic is really bad for the community. You make it seem like Jade is trash and cant do anything. It sets up a really bad image for people interested in Jade. You sound like you know what your talking about but you're missing the practical application and range considerations in a lot of these things.

 

[GLoRToR]

I do but more importantly I know from a certain distance when I see Liu Kang start up his fireball I am safe to Glow and nullify it.

Second, I see you harping on Jade's frames. Even calling them rubbish because they're all negative. You need to take a moment to look at every single other characters frame data and see how many positive strings they have. I am not 100% sure but nearly every single positive string can be flawless blocked at some point. Some, like Liu Kang's apparently OP 9f start up all mid +5 on block can actually be fully punished by Jade with a 212 during the gap. Her frames for her range are decent, if not on the good side. This isnt MkX anymore. Jades normals are the best part about her.

Second looking solely at her - frames dont tell the whole story. Her b2 is completely safe against a, say, a Baraka on block. His f4 will not reach in time to punish. Sure he can duck and punish, but that just means you got outplayed.

I really appreciate the work you do for Jade but you downplaying her in every single topic is really bad for the community. You make it seem like Jade is trash and cant do anything. It sets up a really bad image for people interested in Jade. You sound like you know what your talking about but you're missing the practical application and range considerations in a lot of these things.

The certain distance is full screen. The problem is that Liu can choose when to outzone you and it's usually not at full screen and you will not have the range, or the time to activate Glow, before he's in your face.

It's actually the practical application that makes me say these things and I'm not "downplaying" her, I'm talking from experience and calling out her issues fair and square on the spot.

Anyone who gets disheartened by a characters problem is not to play low tier anyway because they'll run for their lives the first time they work a Sonya's HP down all the way and then she comes back from Jade's full life lead in one touch.

Finally, please understand that everything I say is labbed and tested and I've fought people and lost to people in situations that I've labbed and confirmed to be bad. Erron is the only top tier that Jade does well against currently but I'm not even sure about that, could just be a 5-5.

 

[Miasmata123]

The certain distance is full screen. The problem is that Liu can choose when to outzone you and it's usually not at full screen and you will not have the range, or the time to activate Glow, before he's in your face.

It's actually the practical application that makes me say these things and I'm not "downplaying" her, I'm talking from experience and calling out her issues fair and square on the spot.

Anyone who gets disheartened by a characters problem is not to play low tier anyway because they'll run for their lives the first time they work a Sonya's HP down all the way and then she comes back from Jade's full life lead in one touch.

Finally, please understand that everything I say is labbed and tested and I've fought people and lost to people in situations that I've labbed and confirmed to be bad. Erron is the only top tier that Jade does well against currently but I'm not even sure about that, could just be a 5-5.

But what you're asking for is a character who already controls neutral against a large majority of the cast with her immense range to also be able to nullify any retaliation in the form of projectiles from midscreen. Or to also be able to throw out a 0 frame on block Nitro Kick just because the Jade feels like punishing the opponent every time they try to move. And yes, it's a high. Forcing your opponent to take a step and duck every time they want to close in on Jade (because they cant zone midscreen because of your proposed Glow buffs and risk getting hit with a zero risk Shadow Kick when they do try to use a projectile) is still a win for Jade. It means she is controlling the match. You can use their forced movement to your advantage. Regardless I dont think your proposed balance changes are something to harp on, because I do appreciate the spirit of them.

Most characters don't perform decently against the Erron Sonya Geras (probably Sub Zero and Scorpion) OPfest. That's why they're top tier. Liu Kang is a strong all rounder, maybe TOO strong. But his ability to decide when to go in or not is his major strength. That's something Jade has to deal with, and it may just be a bad match up for her. I think people sleeping on Liu in general.

Balance is really tough. I do think Jade could use a little love. Maybe some extra damage in her kit or a slightly faster start up on her regular glaive just to reinforce her strength as a space control character. But I think she's a solid character and comparing her to top tier characters is silly because those characters WILL see a nerf. Personally, I'd rather them nerf than buff or else everyone just becomes super annoying to play against.

Also, I want to press this issue. Saying Jade's normals are rubbish because they're all negative shows how clearly you're lacking context in this game. Every character is negative, this is a game of turns and not raw pressure. Even Jacqui Briggs, clearly a high pressure character with garbage range on her normals is mostly negative (though she has cancels for her normals, but that's kinda her thing). Jade has few strings that are fully punishable, and some opponents cant even punish them because of their range. Stop looking in a vacuum!

 

[GLoRToR]

But what you're asking for is a character who already controls neutral against a large majority of the cast with her immense range to also be able to nullify any retaliation in the form of projectiles from midscreen. Or to also be able to throw out a 0 frame on block Nitro Kick just because the Jade feels like punishing the opponent every time they try to move. And yes, it's a high. Forcing your opponent to take a step and duck every time they want to close in on Jade (because they cant zone midscreen because of your proposed Glow buffs and risk getting hit with a zero risk Shadow Kick when they do try to use a projectile) is still a win for Jade. It means she is controlling the match. You can use their forced movement to your advantage. Regardless I dont think your proposed balance changes are something to harp on, because I do appreciate the spirit of them.

Most characters don't perform decently against the Erron Sonya Geras (probably Sub Zero and Scorpion) OPfest. That's why they're top tier. Liu Kang is a strong all rounder, maybe TOO strong. But his ability to decide when to go in or not is his major strength. That's something Jade has to deal with, and it may just be a bad match up for her. I think people sleeping on Liu in general.

Balance is really tough. I do think Jade could use a little love. Maybe some extra damage in her kit or a slightly faster start up on her regular glaive just to reinforce her strength as a space control character. But I think she's a solid character and comparing her to top tier characters is silly because those characters WILL see a nerf. Personally, I'd rather them nerf than buff or else everyone just becomes super annoying to play against.

Also, I want to press this issue. Saying Jade's normals are rubbish because they're all negative shows how clearly you're lacking context in this game. Every character is negative, this is a game of turns and not raw pressure. Even Jacqui Briggs, clearly a high pressure character with garbage range on her normals is mostly negative (though she has cancels for her normals, but that's kinda her thing). Jade has few strings that are fully punishable, and some opponents cant even punish them because of their range. Stop looking in a vacuum!

If you read the post you'll see that someone asked me. I'm not even "asking" for those things it's literally just ideas.

The only thing I ask of NRS is to help Jade be a great character, in any way possible.

Your Balance is really tough paragraph is what I think and fully agree with.

As for the latter.
You seem to not understand the implications of being fully punishable on half her strings and not leading to any sort of advantage on the rest. You can literally just restore neutral as Jade currently and that's all you can do. You can't seize advantage, it's rarely your turn at all and in many situations you can only take your turn back with d1,b3 which yet again leads to no form of advantage.
But you don't have to believe me, play her against high level players who have extensively labbed the matchup, to see her struggles.
You don't have to believe anyone, you seem to be well versed in fighting games.
Go explore.

 

[Miasmata123]

If you read the post you'll see that someone asked me. I'm not even "asking" for those things it's literally just ideas.

The only thing I ask of NRS is to help Jade be a great character, in any way possible.

Your Balance is really tough paragraph is what I think and fully agree with.

As for the latter.
You seem to not understand the implications of being fully punishable on half her strings and not leading to any sort of advantage on the rest. You can literally just restore neutral as Jade currently and that's all you can do. You can't seize advantage, it's rarely your turn at all and in many situations you can only take your turn back with d1,b3 which yet again leads to no form of advantage.
But you don't have to believe me, play her against high level players who have extensively labbed the matchup, to see her struggles.
You don't have to believe anyone, you seem to be well versed in fighting games.
Go explore.

But that's how everyone is in this game and that's what I'm trying to emphasize. This game is heavily neutral focused. Everyone in this game is negative. No one can maintain pressure unless they manage to open you up. Every positive string i've explored in this game has FB gaps or can even be combo'd during the gap. Most also have significant knockback on block that essentially restores neutral. I haven't explored them all but it's safe to say this is the norm for MK11 and anything else is the exception. Most strings that people have to combo off of are very punishable.

Jade is lucky to have an all mid string that's +5 (b3434) that ONLY has the potential for a FB and not a full 9f+ gap to get punished during without perfect timing (like Liu Kang does on his +5 string).
The great thing about Jade in this heavily neutral game is that most of her long range moves will completely stuff advancing normals that many characters rely on to open you up. A Baraka throwing out his F44? Nope, eat a wiggle stick. A Baraka tries to dash in to midrange and block? 12 gets him in the foot. Does Jade have poor conversion potential? Sure. That's the price to pay for someone with so much range. Her strength isnt just the reach of her normals, it's that they utilize a weapon and will stuff other moves as people try to use advancing strings and specials to exert pressure from neutral. She rarely experiences what many do of both players getting hit simultaneously as players try to move from neutral. Instead, she wins out in those situations.

You have a really condescending tone for someone with 0 context. How many times do I have to repeat myself that this is the norm for MK11 with actual data before you stop spreading misinformation? Look at other strings. Everyone is negative.

And trust me. I dont believe you. I wouldn't be wasting my time but I find your rampant spread of misinformation and lack of context dangerous for the community of a niche character like Jade. Her normals are downright amazing and no one exploring Jade should get their first impression of them as being "rubbish".

We both love Jade. I think using your time to explore tech for her would be far more productive than telling everyone she's trash with no context.

I feel like we're sleeping on her pole vault cancels for a more rush down-y character but I could be wrong and dont have the time to check that out.

 

[GLoRToR]

You have a really condescending tone for someone with 0 context. How many times do I have to repeat myself that this is the norm for MK11 with actual data before you stop spreading misinformation?

I'll start with this one because this seems to infest the tone of our conversation.
For first. Never in my narrative did I once ever try or intend to seem condescending. This is written text, it's very hard to "sound" anything but "written".
If you feel that at any point I may seem condescending it's your own interpretation. We're discussing. I have no reason to doubt your intentions, you should do the same.
It's a whole another matter that you're not so versed in the character's matchups probably because you haven't had the time to play her enough yet, so you're doubting everything I say because I'm quite pessimistic about her viability. Please understand that this is with experience and not without facts backing it up.

I've said it before but we need to be patient with game balance. They've had a very limited time to churn out all these characters and make them all viable and try to find a game balance. They did an excellent job at that and a less popular character like Jade not being so powerful as the protagonists of the story isn't going to hurt early game balance. It is their best interest that Geras is powerful because he's a main villain, that Liu is powerful because he's the alpha protagonist, that Sonya is powerful because she's the strong female lead, so on and so forth.
Regardless or even in spite of my understanding of the circumstances leading to what makes Jade a bottom tier character I want her to be great. When I say "this move could change this way" it really IS with the only context that the specific move, as a move, compared to the rest, (see her parry for example) is inferior. Her overall toolkit is something worth looking at in the context of matchups and I'll do that for you soon.

Bear with me, I need you to understand where I'm coming from with all this. Again, not intending to condescend, just expressing my point of view.

The issue with character strength as you may or may not know is that if a character is too strong, people will want it destroyed and if a character is not strong enough, people will want it to be too strong. Sadly it is rare that a character is "fine" and those characters, too, have their own struggles which is even harder to address and is usually just left alone. These mid-tier characters then usually get thrown down the chute and other top tiers get picked.

In the industry, we call this the character's "performance".
If a character is "underperforming", like Jade is right now, she has more struggles than compelling definitives. This means that the character needs changes which usually entail either patching up its weaknesses for its limited strengths to grant a risk/reward of a lower range, OR, in case of a more limited array of options such as a MOBA, said character's strengths will be buffed and weakness left bare so that the team aspect of the game leaves said character with exploitables.
If a character is "overperforming", like Sonya is right now, she has very few struggles, all of which are covered by what I just called "compelling definitives" which is a fancy way to say she has some bork shit. Not necessarily things that need nerfing, mind: several top tiers in gaming history were simply good characters with excellent frames and solid tools, rather than sick and overpowered. They simply covered their bases well.

What this means for Jade. I'm overzealous enough - mainly due to the character's poor track record at being left in the mud - to want her to land in the upper echelon and firmly stay her ground as one of the best, most solid characters in the game. You can blame me for this all you like, I'll admit that I want her bases covered and I want her to be a viable tournament pick that will be a blast to watch and even more fun to play.

It's quite apparent that your outlook is optimistic and positive about the character, which I fully appreciate.
The sad truth is that there isn't much room for optimism.

For second. It's not misinformation that there are problems with her frame data which impact her overall gameplay. Everyone who mains her understands how skewed her risk/reward is right now but I don't need an appeal to crowd fallacy to back me up.
I'll give you a full breakdown on that in a second just want to address all your points.

that's how everyone is in this game and that's what I'm trying to emphasize. This game is heavily neutral focused. Everyone in this game is negative. No one can maintain pressure unless they manage to open you up.

Yes that's what NRS said in kombat kast it's one of the catchphrases they sell the game to competent players with.
They omit the truth that despite the game being neutral focused and indeed taking turns is more prominent, what a character can do with its turns in certain matchups is where the balance needs work.
Again, they had a deadline to meet. The game is by far not finalised.

My best intention is to raise awareness to the fact that while everyone can - to somewhat an equal extent - wrest their turn and do something with it on the roster, Jade's normals and specials strike a peculiar odds where she's neither fish nor meat.

When it's her turn, it leads to nothing.

Read: If it's anyone else's turn, they can spend meter for a combo, or in the case of top tiers, don't even need meter to do as much damage as some characters do metered.
Again, game balance.
Again, the game is young.
Again, I want Jade to be covered in all her bases and reach the upper echelon without "compelling definitives" (aka bork shit) but with the right tools to play this game at no severe disadvantage at all.
Her disadvantage as it's been parroted ad nauseum at this point, is her RISK/REWARD. She's High Risk, Low Reward currently.
Because when she regains her turn, she gets nothing.

You'll have to forgive me but there is one assertion of yours that I'll address and not be friendly for a change.
Sticking to facts, but still.

On one hand, we agree that she has all these

downright amazing

long range moves (...) completely stuff advancing normals that many characters rely on to open you up.

which are obviously negative because they need to be, otherwise they'd be unfair advantage.
And it is true as you say that,

Every positive string i've explored in this game has FB gaps or can even be combo'd during the gap. Most also have significant knockback on block that essentially restores neutral.

Jade is lucky to have an all mid string that's +5 (b3434) that ONLY has the potential for a FB and not a full 9f+ gap to get punished during without perfect timing (like Liu Kang does on his +5 string).

but while (probably mostly due to the fact that you seem offended by a perceived condescending tone) you claim that I'm

telling everyone she's trash with no context.

You literally just brought up some random strengths with no context while I've constantly been comparing her, bringing up matchups and explaining with example situations to bring light to what her problem is.

TO CLARIFY then. My context is that her toolkit is lackluster and she needs help.
Everything else is just talk.

I haven't explored them all but it's safe to say this is the norm for MK11 and anything else is the exception. Most strings that people have to combo off of are very punishable.

Except Sub-Zero's mixup and then some. Yeah. See, I fully agree that it's the way it should be, but there are very distinct exceptions to this rule which add to Jade's complete inability to capitalise on a taken turn.

And trust me. I dont believe you. I wouldn't be wasting my time but I find your rampant spread of misinformation and lack of context dangerous for the community of a niche character like Jade. Her normals are downright amazing and no one exploring Jade should get their first impression of them as being "rubbish".

Let's not squabble like this, let's try to understand one another.
Now you see where I'm coming from.
Still think I'm the enemy?

Now as I promised:

A Baraka tries to dash in to midrange and block? 12 gets him in the foot. Does Jade have poor conversion potential? Sure. That's the price to pay for someone with so much range. Her strength isnt just the reach of her normals, it's that they utilize a weapon and will stuff other moves as people try to use advancing strings and specials to exert pressure from neutral. She rarely experiences what many do of both players getting hit simultaneously as players try to move from neutral. Instead, she wins out in those situations.

Your narrative is very positive in this regard and I appreciate it.
At the same time, you'll have to sit down and play a good Baraka to see that all this is only true on paper. Yeah, you can technically stuff F4 but he isn't going to use it when you have the opportunity. He has very powerful tools in the neutral and as we both agreed, he can wrest his turn steadily and when it's his turn he hurts like an aching mother. We can break down any matchup, if you're on PC and within the 5-6 hours range of GMT we should be able to go into an online lab with a mic and I can show you what all I think is wrong with her in which matchup and why.

Here's an incomplete list of issues with her moveset.

F21 whiffs inside its own hitbox above a certain height so it does not catch jumps.
F2 is heavily unsafe which it should be because it's a launcher. The unfortunate circumstance is that it's also slow enough to be fully reactable so it's not viable. Currently, you can just sit there blocking and react to the overhead and when it's your turn - because it will be - she'll have a really hard time dealing with the implications.
B2 is a high that has a low hitbox so it only anti-airs at little further back than the tip of the staff so it combines the disadvantages of both highs and mids. Yeah it stops advancing normals but it's also slow and unwieldy.
B1 is one of her best moves, hands down. Its only problem is it's unnecessarily negative for an i15, it's probably a design choice that would be alleviated if she had safe cancels.
1 and 2 are both highs, starting those strings prematurely carries the innate risk of getting blown up.
124's lunge says it's -4 but it seems to have some wonky hitbox that gets you stuck for a longer duration in the animation in which she's inert. Try to do it point blank to see what I mean.
b3 is her best bet, but the string itself is her flawless blockable and while 212 can be spaced, it runs the risk of being spied and blown up.

Additionally, in her viable variation, she has no safe blockstring ender other than ex glaive and that's a spacing nightmare with the added risk of the opponent jumping out with pants down screaming "surprise".

The fact of the matter is that if you start up any of her slower moves out of range of a teleporter the active frames become void: The teleporter will just jump at her because your move didn't connect. This coupled with the fact that 1 and 2 are highs, a lot of the time her only option against a perpared scorpion is a well spaced b1 which is risky, or a b3, neither of which net her what Scorpion gets on a good guess.

Characters like Lao, Sonya, Liu and Baraka can press their advantage and their turns gain them even more than it does for Scorpion.

We both love Jade. I think using your time to explore tech for her would be far more productive than telling everyone she's trash

I'm not beyond the likelyhood of there being secret hidden tech we haven't noticed yet, I'm not a top player and my resolve is mostly that of hard work rather than immense skill levels. I've not given up on her and won't for very long yet.
I just want her for once in MK history to hit top and stay top. In a way that keeps her solid, not broken. In a way that makes her fun. In a way that she'll garner respect as a good character rather than be written off or hated on for "bork shit" or "meh character".

NRS can do this.
I can only research and then harp on about how there are far more powerful characters.
All of which as you have said, should get some adjustments.

The only reason I'm here making these posts is the above and that I don't want her to be forgotten.

EDIT: Yes, unlike Kabal's, Jade's cancels in her staff variation are negative to the point of uselessness and enhanced shadow kick does nothing for her. The only reason that variation would be worth playing is the staff jump but I think THAT being her only safe special is a pretty barren wasteland of a choice.
I said this many times before but I really dislike one button characters.

 

[jadeisblack]

Jade is just too honest, sad. She is not top 5 worst characters or anything like that, but in this game there are characters that just have stupid stuff, and that situation makes Jade feel lackluster.

There some matches that just feels unfair.

I am sticking with her as of now cause as I said she is workable.

 

[Miasmata123]

You actually fail to provide any context or any match up comparisons outside of "Liu Kang and Baraka have good gap closers, and the former can zone effectively". You literally said "Jade's strings are all rubbish because they are negative". You failed to properly put into perspective both her range and the fact that everyone is negative in this game. Meanwhile I put a lot of effort into how Jade can utilize her weapon range to check a rush down character. Yes you can get outplayed, that's the sign of a balanced character. Not sure how much more detail I care to go into.

Jade does have trouble capitalizing on her turn, but not because of the negative strings you focused on until now. It's because with projectiles and her range on her normals she simply gets more turns than others and can use these safely against many characters. She even has glow and shadow kick to shut down other zoners. Yes projectiles can be blocked. You've never seen a pro get hit by a projectile from full screen?

And yes, teleporters are annoying to play against. That's their point though. It's not just Jade that has this problem against them. No one enjoys playing against Scorpion or Noob. They really shut Jade down but teleports are usually the sign of a counter zoner and that's kinda something you gotta live with.

Jade is a niche character because she's niche. Who the hell outside of us is like "yo staves and glaives are sweet" when you got Kabal with fucking meat hooks and runs so fast he appears on the other side of you? or Jax with metal arms? In the story she's a side character defined only by loyalty to slightly more major side characters (Kotal and Kitana). I was really surprised she was playable in the story. They seem to be pushing her wisdom as an adviser as a defining trait from the intros but meh.

If you really wanna promote her to be respected then you should be pointing out her strengths with the bad. Look at things Jade CAN do. Yes pointing out her flaws is necessary but you make things seem so damn dire for her when that's just gonna drive everyone away as opinions are formed. She has flaws and she has strengths. You make it sound like Jade can do literally nothing in every single match up. You focus a lot more on what the enemy can do against Jade than vice versa. Get her respected by attracting good players, not driving them away with your 0 context negativestrings remarks

About your issues with her strings-
F21 not hitting airborne opponents is pretty dumb. b1 being so negative is probably unnecessary, and could be a decent spot for balance tuning. Her B2 being a poor anti-air is meh. Itll still hit at least once most of the time, and her S2 and d2 are so good at anti-air it's kinda irrelevant.
1 and 2 are also 7f start ups. Pretty sure hitting high is standard for standing 7f's. Her 12 is like a midrange low though, just pretend the 1 never happened. People better respect it and you'll be midscreen and only -7.

B3434 doesnt need to be completed against an opponent who can FB, and is still safe. And you can check with a special cancel if they can FB.

These issues sound like much more reasonable spots for changes than "all her strings are negative and rubbish and she NEEDS (not an if or a but mind you) a 0f on block Nitro Kick" that you were saying before.

Edit: I'd love to play but I play on PS4. I'll let you know if I buy the PC version cause I'd love to have someone to practice with from such an analytical pov.

 

[Espio]

Casual mode PSA: Jade's Delia's Dance is dramatically improved from the beta and it actually a very strong low special. The move actually grants useful hit advantage and can be amplified on block for safety, neither was true in the beta.

I'm glad you're actually doing your homework in a productive, positive way .


It irks my soul that we still don't have custom variations as tournament standard/no time table on when/if we will have it. Jade is so fun with a combination of Delia's dance, air glaive and pole vault. Delia's dance is especially awesome because the chip is great, the safe meter burn AND it has enough cancel advantage to make a lot of strings gapless and safe. It replacing butterfly isn't a loss in any meaningful way. In the lab, back 2 is gapless and Back 3,4,3 too so she can play games on flawless block with it too

It also gives her a safe forward 2 overhead.....yesss.

This is the third time this has happened (Erron and Baraka) where the most fun was isn't currently possible competitively speaking.

 

[Miasmata123]

I'm glad you're actually doing your homework in a productive, positive way .


It irks my soul that we still don't have custom variations as tournament standard/no time table on when/if we will have it. Jade is so fun with a combination of Delia's dance, air glaive and pole vault. Delia's dance is especially awesome because the chip is great, the safe meter burn AND it has enough cancel advantage to make a lot of strings gapless and safe. It replacing butterfly isn't a loss in any meaningful way. In the lab, back 2 is gapless and Back 3,4,3 too so she can play games on flawless block with it too

It also gives her a safe forward 2 overhead.....yesss.

This is the third time this has happened (Erron and Baraka) where the most fun was isn't currently possible competitively speaking.

I'd loooove to be able to use custom variations competitively. I want to be able to use Delia's Dance and her flashy staff strings even if everyone just uppercuts me during it ;_;.

Though I heard rumors that Kotal Kahn can do like 1100 damage with custom loadout but I didnt really look into it at all lol.

 

[S+ Main]

These are some long essay's.

 

[Wrenchfarm]

If you feel that at any point I may seem condescending it's your own interpretation.

lol, I'm not trying to start any smoke here, but that is an absolute classic.

Try that line with your girl and see how it goes

Anyway, I think we can all agree that Jade feels a little incomplete. Not busted, not bottom tier, but it's hard to look at her tools and think she hangs with the top performers in the game. She just needs slight tweaks like a slightly faster overhead (just a few frames) or a little more safety/advantage on her strings so she can actually use that vaunted reach of hers, or a little more damage potential. I wouldn't go crazy with the buffs.

Perspective is important here. Take a look at any character general and you'll see a lot of the same complaints. MK11 characters are designed to be weaker and have more exploitable gaps than previous titles. If anything, the answer might not be to do anything to Jade, but to bring the outliers like Erron, Sonya, and Geras down closer to Jade's level.

 

[Espio]

I'd loooove to be able to use custom variations competitively. I want to be able to use Delia's Dance and her flashy staff strings even if everyone just uppercuts me during it ;_;.

Though I heard rumors that Kotal Kahn can do like 1100 damage with custom loadout but I didnt really look into it at all lol.

"Rumors"? If people are talking shouldn't there be proof? Even if there was, all this stuff can be tweaked just like the rest of the game and given extra slots or damage values dropped to reasonable levels.

Staff strings are extremely overrated in terms of applicability and the fact that someone can interrupt and punish you with a 12 frame mid and they don't even TRADE with you is a blow up. The sweep is really good and you can use parry, but then people can just low poke and opt out entirely. The gap is pretty easy to see unless people are playing sloppy and slow.

 

[Wrenchfarm]

Kotal Kahn damage is all theoretical and shouldn't really be seen as anything but a novelty. I mean yeah, in a custom variation and in a situation where he has 3 strength totems stacked, a fully loaded command grab buff, sunlight, and two parry buffs, he can demolish a health bar.

Absolute legend at killing dummies in the training room

 

[GLoRToR]

lol, I'm not trying to start any smoke here, but that is an absolute classic.

Try that line with your girl and see how it goes

I don't talk differently online than I do offline. The difference is that offline I have my personality to back it up. I'm widely loved for being a total jerk in a funny way. Never once has anyone ever called me condescending, not as a teacher, not as a professional, not even a girlfriend. Though I've been called out on "knowing everything better" in a few cases where, then, I had evidence that I do in fact know better about the topic I was called out on. Scientists for you. We're hardcore bastards.
Plans within plans within plans kids. Just watch the hands.

Anyway, I think we can all agree that Jade feels a little incomplete. Not busted, not bottom tier, but it's hard to look at her tools and think she hangs with the top performers in the game. She just needs slight tweaks like a slightly faster overhead (just a few frames) or a little more safety/advantage on her strings so she can actually use that vaunted reach of hers, or a little more damage potential. I wouldn't go crazy with the buffs.

She needs 1 thing, which is several in one.

For all her tools to be looked at and compared to the rest of the cast and made competitive.

Sub-Zero has a safe mixup, the overhead of which has not too much less range than f2, and the low of which comes out much faster and reaches much further than her b3.
Kitana's square wave is a better version of Shadow Kick and its pushback is godlike.
Skarlet, Liu, Sonya all have a better parry, hers is literally the worst in the game with barely any active frames, can't be held, leads to nothing.

You get the picture I could go on for ages about this horseshit but even I'm bored of my own voice at this point.
I think my work here is done and I hope that NRS was indeed just keeping her on the backburner with how horrible her frame data is (Staff spin -13, shadow kick minus one million, b2 a high, f2 the worst launcher in the game and literally unviable, etc.)

Perspective is important here. Take a look at any character general and you'll see a lot of the same complaints. MK11 characters are designed to be weaker and have more exploitable gaps than previous titles. If anything, the answer might not be to do anything to Jade, but to bring the outliers like Erron, Sonya, and Geras down closer to Jade's level.

If Sub, Liu, Geras, Sonya, Erron, Scorpion and whoever else has overperforming moves were all brought down to the level where Jade plays this game, she'd certainly be better for it.

And here's something I've been saying to people in private over discord, fite me irl.

As long as there are safe, meterburnable, quick teleports and safe / + advancing mids in this game, its quality as a fighting game will always suffer.

 

[Phr4nk]

Does anyone have videos of some high level jade play to share? Sets, tournaments, etc?

 

[Miasmata123]

"Rumors"? If people are talking shouldn't there be proof? Even if there was, all this stuff can be tweaked just like the rest of the game and given extra slots or damage values dropped to reasonable levels.

Staff strings are extremely overrated in terms of applicability and the fact that someone can interrupt and punish you with a 12 frame mid and they don't even TRADE with you is a blow up. The sweep is really good and you can use parry, but then people can just low poke and opt out entirely. The gap is pretty easy to see unless people are playing sloppy and slow.

Eh yeah I just threw it out there in case anyone wanted to look into it. A quick YouTube search of kotal Kahn 1100 damage brought it up fast XD. It's completely impractical (requires three totems at a minimum and probably 3x damage buff from his throw, so at that point the 1100 damage is overkill by like 800 damage anyway lol) but I guess it does exist.

And yeah the staff strings are pretty garbo outside that amazing poke. I just think they're flashy and are fun to use. I didn't realize that gap was 12 frames!

I do really hope they expand the tournament variations a bit cause Jade has some sweet and more practical tools available for her there. Plus it feels like a waste of their own time and money to add so many moves and then just have the player never really experience them outside the most casual of casual game modes.

 

[Wrenchfarm]

I really liked the staff strings and big sweep. Will be really disappointed if I never get to use them in real matches.

Although I am somewhat placated by the fact that air glaive is more useful than first expected.

 

[GLoRToR]

Oh my, more parroted ad-hominem and nonsensical hostility.
For the LAST time then.

You actually fail to provide any context
failed to properly put into perspective

You mean you are not experienced enough to understand the perspective I'm putting it all into.

I know what I'm talking about and bring up valid issues about her while you say things like:

Jade is a niche character because she's niche.

Look at things Jade CAN do.

just gonna drive everyone away

You make it sound like Jade can do literally nothing in every single match up.

Get her respected by attracting good players, not driving them away with your 0 context negativestrings remarks

The context is that Jade is not competitive currently.
She is not strong, like Erron, Sonya, Sub, Scorp, Liu, etc.

That she struggles against the above and the majority of the tournament-viable cast in her current state and that she needs help.
If you don't understand this, feel free to agree to disagree.

You lose nothing by not understanding my point. Bring evidence to the contrary of what I'm saying, or leave it alone.

 

[Miasmata123]

Does anyone have videos of some high level jade play to share? Sets, tournaments, etc?

At about 3:13:00 (idk how to link it halfway through on mobile lol)

Quew also streams most days late at night but you can watch his vods. He is really interactive with the chat so check him out-

Twitch

Twitch is the world's leading video platform and community for gamers.

twitch.tv

Qeuw also goes on to fight a Noob Saibot as well but I cant find it. Should be the same video though.

If people find more please share!

 

[HeavyNorse]

I'm still having fun with her. She's my favourite character to play. ^^

 

[THTB]

Winners Finals and Grand Finals vs BurritoVoorhees at Mortal Mayhem today!

I lost, but fun games overall! I saw a lot of stuff and definitely learned. Made some pretty notable mistakes, but overall, this likely will be a basic outline of ED Jade vs NE Geras.

The second set, Grand Finals, you can see I discovered that pillar is indeed a projectile, so glow works! That was the one thing I was wondering during the Winners Finals set, but didn't want to experiment with, as I wasn't sure if he'd actually sand trap instead. Burrito and I talked, and he even mentions in the post-tourney interview, air glaive really makes the matchup a lot closer to even. I think what will be imperative is taking advantage of every spot we can potentially glow, as it allows us to do low air glaives without as much fear of the knockdown. Up close, Geras is Geras lol, but d4 is important to use. We'll figure out more on the matchup as we play more.