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Jade General Discussion Thread

Denny

Noob
Her main Struggles are:

Overall Bottom Tier Frame Data
  • Where other Characters will be Safe, Jade gets Full Combo Punished.
  • Every Single Move she has comes with a Huge Caveat, a Couple of Bugs and Then Some.
  • She Whiffs. A lot. And this will Cost you the Match enough times to Tear Your Hair Out.
  • Her Projectiles start-up So Slowly that Most Characters can Beat Her Out On Reaction. BF1 is Literally Not Worth Using outside of B1/B2 Scenarios because you Set Yourself Up for a Full Combo Punish or Teleport / Advancing Move crush.
Bad Forward Movement
  • Walking Away from Jade and Neutral Ducking is a Perfectly Valid Strategy.
  • Against Jaded, you have to be Extra Careful, but Vault is Reactable and leads to No Damage or Setup Anyway.
No / Situational / Poor Damage

At the End of the Day, Jade is still Bottom Tier.
Possibly Bottom 1 now that Shao is In The Game.
 
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Her main Struggles are:

Overall Bottom Tier Frame Data
  • Where other Characters will be Safe, Jade gets Full Combo Punished.
  • Every Single Move she has comes with a Huge Caveat, a Couple of Bugs and Then Some.
  • She Whiffs. A lot. And this will Cost you the Match enough times to Tear Your Hair Out.
  • Her Projectiles start-up So Slowly that Most Characters can Beat Her Out On Reaction. BF1 is Literally Not Worth Using outside of B1/B2 Scenarios because you Set Yourself Up for a Full Combo Punish or Teleport / Advancing Move crush.
Bad Forward Movement
  • Walking Away from Jade and Neutral Ducking is a Perfectly Valid Strategy.
  • Against Jaded, you have to be Extra Careful, but Vault is Reactable and leads to No Damage or Setup Anyway.
No / Situational / Poor Damage

At the End of the Day, Jade is still Bottom Tier.
Possibly Bottom 1 now that Shao is In The Game.
BINGO.....I was replaying the story last night and couldn't get over how GOOD some of the other characters felt playing. I have not played other characters even if they are good because I'm a character loyalist. I've been saying for awhile her forward range is actually not that good. On paper it should be with back back 2 and forward 2. Those moves just aren't reliable enough though. Like you said .....neutral ducking against Jade is a very effective strategy......and then just having to be mindful of the slowest overhead in the game.......which will get her fully punished. Her regular razor rang as you said just is garbage.....to slow to be a real projectile and trying to use the plus frames to your advantage will just get you poked out of it. More neutral ducking against her that's very effective. I was playing against a KKotal a few days ago and was trying to create space by using her regular razor rang and he just kept dashing up and using whatever that long ranged combo he has is and was hitting me before the razor came back around her body after the initial wind up. So completely frustrating. I like playing Jaded because Emerald defender is more tedious and boring to me but at this point I feel like I've learned all I can about the Jaded variation and there still isn't a good strategy. In recent months I've definitely increasingly taken a lot more breaks in playing this game. I can't play every day because it's very frustrating. I was really hoping this patch was going to do something amazing for her and surprise me but it's the same old story. I guess she is destined to be at the very bottom in this game.
 

Denny

Noob
BINGO.....I was replaying the story last night and couldn't get over how GOOD some of the other characters felt playing. I have not played other characters even if they are good because I'm a character loyalist. I've been saying for awhile her forward range is actually not that good. On paper it should be with back back 2 and forward 2. Those moves just aren't reliable enough though. Like you said .....neutral ducking against Jade is a very effective strategy......and then just having to be mindful of the slowest overhead in the game.......which will get her fully punished. Her regular razor rang as you said just is garbage.....to slow to be a real projectile and trying to use the plus frames to your advantage will just get you poked out of it. More neutral ducking against her that's very effective. I was playing against a KKotal a few days ago and was trying to create space by using her regular razor rang and he just kept dashing up and using whatever that long ranged combo he has is and was hitting me before the razor came back around her body after the initial wind up. So completely frustrating. I like playing Jaded because Emerald defender is more tedious and boring to me but at this point I feel like I've learned all I can about the Jaded variation and there still isn't a good strategy. In recent months I've definitely increasingly taken a lot more breaks in playing this game. I can't play every day because it's very frustrating. I was really hoping this patch was going to do something amazing for her and surprise me but it's the same old story. I guess she is destined to be at the very bottom in this game.
Yeah there is a Thread that says Fujin Dog Shit.
We need to make a Video about Why Jade Is Dog Shit.
Except it would NOT be 44 minutes. It would be 44 Hours.
 

variable

Noob
With the changes to ip girl, I saw someone follow up with 4, b2, nitro kick instead of 21, b2, nitro... But it's incredibly hard to hit. Does anyone have any advice or notes? It's ten more damage, not amazing but it's the principle hehe, I just want to be able to execute it and it feels almost impossible. Thanks for any advice anyone has.
 

Espio

Jax Whacks Hacks Across Their Backs
Lead Moderator
With the changes to ip girl, I saw someone follow up with 4, b2, nitro kick instead of 21, b2, nitro... But it's incredibly hard to hit. Does anyone have any advice or notes? It's ten more damage, not amazing but it's the principle hehe, I just want to be able to execute it and it feels almost impossible. Thanks for any advice anyone has.
I don't have any tips but if you drop the combo due to inconsistency you're losing more than 1% damage. It's all balance and context.

If you're playing competitively it's better to do what is reliable and consistent in order to win.
 

Espio

Jax Whacks Hacks Across Their Backs
Lead Moderator
So thankfully Jade seems like she does really well against all the DLC so far.

Most challenging seems to be Sheeva, but that still feels 5-5. I think Robocop is super straightforward as a match up since we win the zoning and keep/win up close it's a pretty open/shut case and he has to approach which he isn't good at.

I've played against Fujin probably the least, but it feels pretty comfortable.


@StormGoddess

You always show me things I never knew I wanted!!!

That skin would be perfect with her human skin and the bun. I'd definitely put it to good use. NRS better make that money cause good grief these edits are gorgeous.
 

Espio

Jax Whacks Hacks Across Their Backs
Lead Moderator
How so? Doesn't Jaded counter her completely at every range?
No she doesn't.

Sheeva has an excellent wave dave, great oki and Jade's wake ups aren't particularly good. Sheeva checks her walk back with sweep and sweep also checks all of Jade's staff normals on block and then Sheeva starts her oki on her. Jade either blocks after you block her back 2 or you eat her sweep and it's game on.

Emerald Defender for example in order to zone has to utilize slow recovery projectiles or ones that require her to jump which allows telestomp to be more viable against her that other characters. Only reason why Jade doesn't outright lose is she has a good mid and down 4. If Sheeva players utilize their tools properly which I see almost never happen other than from players like Yoaks or what not she shouldn't have any major issues with Jade beyond universal things.

Sheeva is a character I use a lot so I lab these match ups for her and her options. That wave dash also means you cannot keep her out if the Sheeva is smart. Sometimes you have to walk back and concede the neutral game and do what you're good at.

I don't see most of the issues Sheeva players harp on because most of them have very real, very easy work arounds. Only real flaw she has is her low pokes aren't super stellar, but down 4 is underrated and seems like it can low profile some attacks.

I haven't come across really any match ups that feel terrible. Frost feels fine, Geras, Jacqui, Johnny.....Cetrion feels kind of gross but Cetrion is like that for many characters.
 
No she doesn't.

Sheeva has an excellent wave dave, great oki and Jade's wake ups aren't particularly good. Sheeva checks her walk back with sweep and sweep also checks all of Jade's staff normals on block and then Sheeva starts her oki on her. Jade either blocks after you block her back 2 or you eat her sweep and it's game on.

Emerald Defender for example in order to zone has to utilize slow recovery projectiles or ones that require her to jump which allows telestomp to be more viable against her that other characters. Only reason why Jade doesn't outright lose is she has a good mid and down 4. If Sheeva players utilize their tools properly which I see almost never happen other than from players like Yoaks or what not she shouldn't have any major issues with Jade beyond universal things.

Sheeva is a character I use a lot so I lab these match ups for her and her options. That wave dash also means you cannot keep her out if the Sheeva is smart. Sometimes you have to walk back and concede the neutral game and do what you're good at.

I don't see most of the issues Sheeva players harp on because most of them have very real, very easy work arounds. Only real flaw she has is her low pokes aren't super stellar, but down 4 is underrated and seems like it can low profile some attacks.

I haven't come across really any match ups that feel terrible. Frost feels fine, Geras, Jacqui, Johnny.....Cetrion feels kind of gross but Cetrion is like that for many characters.
I like using Jaded against Sheeva. I dont have an awful lot of experience with sheeva because I 've been playing the game less and didn't buy the new characters. When sheeva players wan't to spam the unblockable stomp I just keep using the pole vault to run full screen since you can burn a significant amount of time continuing to run even when she delays.....then you hit the amplify button and kick her which is really fun.
 

Zviko

Noob
No she doesn't.

Sheeva has an excellent wave dave, great oki and Jade's wake ups aren't particularly good. Sheeva checks her walk back with sweep and sweep also checks all of Jade's staff normals on block and then Sheeva starts her oki on her. Jade either blocks after you block her back 2 or you eat her sweep and it's game on.

Emerald Defender for example in order to zone has to utilize slow recovery projectiles or ones that require her to jump which allows telestomp to be more viable against her that other characters. Only reason why Jade doesn't outright lose is she has a good mid and down 4. If Sheeva players utilize their tools properly which I see almost never happen other than from players like Yoaks or what not she shouldn't have any major issues with Jade beyond universal things.

Sheeva is a character I use a lot so I lab these match ups for her and her options. That wave dash also means you cannot keep her out if the Sheeva is smart. Sometimes you have to walk back and concede the neutral game and do what you're good at.

I don't see most of the issues Sheeva players harp on because most of them have very real, very easy work arounds. Only real flaw she has is her low pokes aren't super stellar, but down 4 is underrated and seems like it can low profile some attacks.

I haven't come across really any match ups that feel terrible. Frost feels fine, Geras, Jacqui, Johnny.....Cetrion feels kind of gross but Cetrion is like that for many characters.
She still forces you to play V3 because she has a counter for every single V1 ability.
 

John_NX

Your circumstances are dire!
Jade buff ideas. Go!

For me:
  • Make F2 come out a little faster or give it a safe but flawless blockable follow-up. Or maybe both. Both sindel and NW have practically safe OH's and they are far better than Jade.
  • Both F41 and B12 need to be safe on block since they don't lead to ANY kind of follow up, have a gap and have no crushing blows to make up for how unsafe they are. Give B12 a punish/counter KB since Jade lacks in the KB department.
  • A safe special for ED to cancel into. Dalias dance would be perfect.
  • More ways for jaded to get damage. Maybe add a launcher with the vault?
  • Rework Untameable. Serves no purpose.
 
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Jade buff ideas. Go!

For me:
  • Make F2 come out a little faster or give it a safe but flawless blockable follow-up. Or maybe both. Both sindel and NW have practically safe OH's and they are far better than Jade.
  • Both F41 and B12 need to be safe on block since they don't need to ANY kind of follow up, have a gap and have no crushing blows to make up for how unsafe they are. Give B12 a punish/counter KB since Jade lacks in the KB department.
  • A safe special for ED to cancel into. Dalias dance would be perfect.
  • More ways for jaded to get damage. Maybe add a launcher with the vault?
  • Rework Untameable. Serves no purpose.
I like your ideas. Forward 2 NEEDS to come out faster....it's just way to slow and like you say Sindel's is far superior with BETTER range and frames. Other ideas i've had are.

-Make meter burned regular glaive a mid......so sick of them just ducking and poking her out of it.
-Parry.....Needs faster start up frames and longer active frames. She and Johnny are tied for slowest Parry.....at least his active frames are much longer and he can enhance it to make even longer. Can anyone ever get her parry KB as is right now?
-Let her enhanced pole vault work as a combo ender on ALL combos. She shouldn't being flying over their heads like that.
-Change her pole vault KB requirements so we can actually get the KB for once.
-How about a little more range on her forward 343.....there is like no range at all. Up close people block low always and just look for the 28 frame over head......not hard to spot.
-Add a few more plus frames to her pole vault shadow kick. I'm sick of getting poked out of this from characters who have fast answers for this move. When she runs full screen and uses this kick I find there isn't many options for her. Occasionally you can hit someone with back 2 but if someone is smart and knows they will just duck or back dash. Back one is a mid but it feels to slow and doesn't really lead to anything substantial even if you do get it off. You can do down 4 but this also doesn't lead to anything. She needs more pressure and advantage.
- Give her the Assassin combos as her base please....i mean to be honest these combos aren't really even that good.
-Make her glow work on more projectiles......the Shang corpse drop and scarlett overhead projectile thingy kill me......

There is a bunch more things but I can't think of them all right now. I'm not saying she should get ALL these items on my list ....just some ideas that have come to my mind. I do however think she deserves a bigger buff then most! I wont hold my breath though as usual!
 

Espio

Jax Whacks Hacks Across Their Backs
Lead Moderator
Jade buff ideas. Go!

For me:
  • Make F2 come out a little faster or give it a safe but flawless blockable follow-up. Or maybe both. Both sindel and NW have practically safe OH's and they are far better than Jade.
  • Both F41 and B12 need to be safe on block since they don't need to ANY kind of follow up, have a gap and have no crushing blows to make up for how unsafe they are. Give B12 a punish/counter KB since Jade lacks in the KB department.
  • A safe special for ED to cancel into. Dalias dance would be perfect.
  • More ways for jaded to get damage. Maybe add a launcher with the vault?
  • Rework Untameable. Serves no purpose.

Untamable has legit no purpose, I agree. Jaded is the rushdown neutral heavy and Emerald Defender is the mid range zoning/counterzoning. Someone told me it's her neutral variation, but all it does really is give her more gap and more things to be worried about getting flawless blocked. She even has gaps in her "safe" special that make it -13. Gaps in more strings or string additions from highs. She's one of the only characters with an attack teleport that it's very easy to evade, jump and just punish and there's no real reward but a modest damage knock down. On top of that she loses glow, plus frames and zoning that the other have on deck.

I 100% agree on back 1,2 and forward 4,1 as well. Back 1,2 could be -10 or -12 even if it's situationally punishable, it shouldn't be almost -20 for a 9% knockdown. Back 1 and Forward 4 on their own are solid pokes and anti-poke moves, but this would just be a quality of life type of deal.

Nightwolf and Sindel have a safe/gapless option off of their overheads that leads to less damage but is still safe. Nightwolf's is just ending the string and Sindel's is hair grab after forward 2. Not to mention Sindel can also make it safe with a scream cancel for -7 or a 50/50 mind game of either the unsafe low or flawless blockable safe option.


It's funny you mention that because Delia's dance is the special I use for customs and I pair it with air glaive and low spark, she feels so much less limited having that option and she has to amp it with meter to be safe so I don't even feel like it would be "unfair".



Although if I'm totally honest, I'd be good with forward 4,1 safe/-7 with same pushback and back 1,2 -10 if that's all we get. I really like the way Emerald Defender plays generally, but more strings with real applications is always a good thing.

Really solid list.
 

Pan1cMode

AUS FGC represent!
Premium Supporter
My change wish list:

Universal:
- b12 made -9 on block
Add kounterhit/punish KB that results in a launch
  • f2 made 20 frames startup, increase the gap in f21 to 6 frames (to make it easily flawless-blockable) and make it -8 on block (-18 on flawless block).
  • parry made 6 frames startup

V1:
Low projectile -11 on block point blank


V2:
Allow enhanced pole vault to connect from more strings (adjust cancel timing/startup etc.)

Rework enhanced pole vault KB; have to land 3 enhanced pole vaults and 4th will KB


V3:
Decrease the gap in b2 assassins string to 5 frames (flawless blockable gap but can’t jump out or kounterhit).

Projectile parry can be enhanced immediately allowing for a small midscreen combo. Enhanced parry is now -12 on block.
 
why does her best combo (back 343) have to be dial in? WHY!!???? I was playing tonight on my other xbox (i have 2). Im not sure if the settings are different or something or was the controller (although it felt better). It was like every time i went for back 343 I got the sweep which i think must be back 4? I had no problem with the timing on the other console but tonight I just kept getting sweep or an incredibly slow plain back 3 because i was like waiting so damn long! Why couldn't it be easy to input like forward 343? WHY? I hate it so much.
 

John_NX

Your circumstances are dire!
I like almost every idea posted here. Probably won't happen though because NRS doesn't seem to understand how to fix characters (look at kitana).
 

abyson

Noob
now that mileena is going to be in the game i wonder if theyll keep kitanna looking stupid with the knockoff mileeana moves they stuffed in her move-set (both tournament and casual) instead of making her competent.
Even if they don't make any of the changes mentioned to jade which might be the case most likely i think making the variation system more liberal perhaps creating a few extra slots for customizing each variation even slightly it will help allot and even make the game allot more interesting overall
 

Arqwart

Flawless block reversal me, daddy
Reposting the stuff I put into my KP2 balance patch thread. Didn't expound on these changes in the KP2 thread as that wasn't really the point. Gunna do so here. NOTE: I don't really play Untamable so I didn't know what all to include for buffs. Went with one thing I KNOW she needs at a minimum and left it at that. I do believe that variation needs more, though.

Base
Pole Slam (F2):
now hits across the entire arc, not just when it gets past Jade's head
It visibly has the staff glow effect REALLY early in the animation which makes it look like it can hit along the arc. Instead, it only starts to hit about around when it reaches Jade's head or slightly past it. This is why we have incessant frustrations as it really does LOOK like it should hit sometimes yet doesn't

Pole Strike (B1) startup: 15f -> 12f
A faster Mid check in the neutral to complement her D4 and B2. As it is at 15f, it's borderline unusable for anything.

Teaser (B12) startup: 21f -> 16f
A stupidly long-range overhead that's -19 and slow as fuck on top of being the second hit in a string. Making a relatively small adjustment in just hitting the speed, but I feel it's a realistic change. Wouldn't mind it not being death on block at max range too.

Razor-rang (BF1) amplified: High -> Mid
Razor-rang (BF1) amplified startup: 23f -> 20f (now jails on block with no flawless block gap)

Razor-rang (BF1) amplified block: +7f -> -5f
Jade now has a universal amplification option that makes her entirely safe. I don't believe it should make her + anymore if it's a guaranteed safety net, but I specifically made it -5 which is that magical "I can immediately flawless block reversal your poke attempt after" number. In addition, her amplified razor-rang is now an ACTUAL zoning tool worth a shit with the amplified one being a Mid.

Emerald Defender (V1)
Edenian Spark (DB3):
now has an amplification. Amplified Edenian Spark sends a second wave full screen that's a Mid wall (See: IJ2 Captain Cold's amplified ice wall).
Edenian Spark (DB3) amplified info: Mid, 60 damage, 16f startup, -11f on block, 30f recovery, slight pushback on block (removed when flawless'd), large knockback on hit (see: Sonya's amplified ring).
Edenian Spark (DB3) amplified: Krushing Blow if it hits after the first wave hits. Deals increased damage based on distance (160 - 280, totaling 220 - 340 with first wave's damage included).

Probably the worst addition to ED, Edenian Spark is a mediocre startup low projectile that has crazy recovery and is 100% guaranteed death on block even at staff distances. Instead of buffing the base projectile directly, I went another route and came up with an amplification option. I also introduced a Krushing Blow unique to ED through this as it current has none via its variation moves. The thought here is to give Jade something similar to Cetrion's amplified wall mind games up close and allow Jades to potentially call out people jumping over the regular projectile at a distance. The KB was designed around those suicidal moments of attempting to do ED's 50/50s with Spark and rewarding that risk.

Untamable (V3)
Vanishing Winds (DB3) amplified startup:
22f -> 18f
Again, I don't play Untamable so I've no idea what to give the variation to fix it. I also fear this variation has fundamental problems that need drastic baseline changes to make it worth anything over Jaded so direct frame buffs won't do a lot. Anyway, teleport is faster.
 

John_NX

Your circumstances are dire!
Reposting the stuff I put into my KP2 balance patch thread. Didn't expound on these changes in the KP2 thread as that wasn't really the point. Gunna do so here. NOTE: I don't really play Untamable so I didn't know what all to include for buffs. Went with one thing I KNOW she needs at a minimum and left it at that. I do believe that variation needs more, though.

Base
Pole Slam (F2):
now hits across the entire arc, not just when it gets past Jade's head
It visibly has the staff glow effect REALLY early in the animation which makes it look like it can hit along the arc. Instead, it only starts to hit about around when it reaches Jade's head or slightly past it. This is why we have incessant frustrations as it really does LOOK like it should hit sometimes yet doesn't

Pole Strike (B1) startup: 15f -> 12f
A faster Mid check in the neutral to complement her D4 and B2. As it is at 15f, it's borderline unusable for anything.

Teaser (B12) startup: 21f -> 16f
A stupidly long-range overhead that's -19 and slow as fuck on top of being the second hit in a string. Making a relatively small adjustment in just hitting the speed, but I feel it's a realistic change. Wouldn't mind it not being death on block at max range too.

Razor-rang (BF1) amplified: High -> Mid
Razor-rang (BF1) amplified startup: 23f -> 20f (now jails on block with no flawless block gap)

Razor-rang (BF1) amplified block: +7f -> -5f
Jade now has a universal amplification option that makes her entirely safe. I don't believe it should make her + anymore if it's a guaranteed safety net, but I specifically made it -5 which is that magical "I can immediately flawless block reversal your poke attempt after" number. In addition, her amplified razor-rang is now an ACTUAL zoning tool worth a shit with the amplified one being a Mid.

Emerald Defender (V1)
Edenian Spark (DB3):
now has an amplification. Amplified Edenian Spark sends a second wave full screen that's a Mid wall (See: IJ2 Captain Cold's amplified ice wall).
Edenian Spark (DB3) amplified info: Mid, 60 damage, 16f startup, -11f on block, 30f recovery, slight pushback on block (removed when flawless'd), large knockback on hit (see: Sonya's amplified ring).
Edenian Spark (DB3) amplified: Krushing Blow if it hits after the first wave hits. Deals increased damage based on distance (160 - 280, totaling 220 - 340 with first wave's damage included).

Probably the worst addition to ED, Edenian Spark is a mediocre startup low projectile that has crazy recovery and is 100% guaranteed death on block even at staff distances. Instead of buffing the base projectile directly, I went another route and came up with an amplification option. I also introduced a Krushing Blow unique to ED through this as it current has none via its variation moves. The thought here is to give Jade something similar to Cetrion's amplified wall mind games up close and allow Jades to potentially call out people jumping over the regular projectile at a distance. The KB was designed around those suicidal moments of attempting to do ED's 50/50s with Spark and rewarding that risk.

Untamable (V3)
Vanishing Winds (DB3) amplified startup:
22f -> 18f
Again, I don't play Untamable so I've no idea what to give the variation to fix it. I also fear this variation has fundamental problems that need drastic baseline changes to make it worth anything over Jaded so direct frame buffs won't do a lot. Anyway, teleport is faster.
What about Jaded? I think she needs some adjustments to the vault. Such as the KB and the damage.
 
What about Jaded? I think she needs some adjustments to the vault. Such as the KB and the damage.
Yes please! My favorite variation to use and it definitely needs some adjustments. The amplified pole vault really should work with all combo strings. The KB with the amplified pole vault should be changed. The amplified pole vault should also come out faster. Many people did sit back far away neutral ducking and waiting to upper cut which is effective on both the kick and pole vault . I also believe the whole pole vault into her kick needs to be more plus. If you do pole vault into the kick full screen she isn't within range to do back 343 or forward 343. Her fastest mid after back 343 is her back 1 which is 15 frames.....this is not fast enough. If the parry had better frames this could also add more mind games when canceling the pole vault and they are trying to poke.

PS. Was just playing around in practice and back343 into vault kick followed by back 343 will not reach on some characters. No sure why this is the case for some and not others. Doesn't work on Jade, Kitana, Scorpion.....works on D'vorah.......Maybe I'm just not executing it correctly.....I'm not sure yet.
 
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Arqwart

Flawless block reversal me, daddy
What about Jaded? I think she needs some adjustments to the vault. Such as the KB and the damage.
The direct Jade buffs here are out of the context of my overall post in that KP2 balance patch thread. One thing I mentioned was that all hilariously useless KB requirements would be reworked. I'd consider Pole Vault's in that listing of needing a rework, though I didn't have ideas of what to change it to so I didn't include it as an explicit change. I guess the typical "land it 3 times and the 4th KBs" could work, but that's also quite boring.

Aside from the KB change, I'm hesitant to give any other direct buffs to Jaded when she'd be getting a better projectile option and a long-range 12f mid (which should combo into enhanced Vault on hit considering how + that B1 is).