Is it a bird ? Is it a Plane ? Match Up Discussion

[PunkMafia83]

I don't get black Adams damage at all honestly. Also don't understand why they gave him his new forward advancing string at all. In gau he was a lame character that could walk back zone and space and pick his moment to jump in dive kick check you with B2 etc. They gave him a trait cancelable advancing string. So annoying. Anyways. Rant over. Sorry lol

 

[B. Shazzy]

After 2 months, here is my MU list:

Swamp : 7-3
Cyborg : 5-5
Catwoman : 4-6
Green Arrow : 5-5
Fate : 6-4
Blue Beetle : 5-5
Flash : 6-4
Green Lantern : 5-5
Harley : 5-5
Firestorm : 6-4
Aquaman : 4-6
Canary : 6-4
Brainiac : 6-4
Supergirl : 5-5
Wonder Woman : 5-5
Adam : 4-6
Captain Cold : 6-4
Atrocitus : 4-6
Joker : ? Never played one
Gorilla Grodd : 6-4
Robin : 6-4
Cheetah : 5-5
Scarecrow : 5-5
Deadshot : 4-6
Bane : 7-3
Poison Ivy : 6-4
Darkseid : 5-5
Red Hood : 5-5

arrow 5-5? i beat ga players with zero combos lul

Superman beats Supergirl easily. he doesnt lose to batman either lul

Beats Beetle, Joker and prob Lantern too. the rest is accurate enough

oh and i hate atrocitus as much as the next guy but i dont think he loses that either maybe if puddle actually punished air laser

 

[Tweedy]

I agree with shazzy and king. Just can't type out thoughts on this on screen keyboard rip

 

[MetalPete]

I don't care what nobody says, Black Adam beats Superman too. He outdamages Superman meterlessly, outdamages Superman with trait meterlessly, outdamages Superman with trait and 1 bar. He just outdamages Superman period. Also Black Adam wins the full screen lame game, Superman is forced to rush down Black Adam. If Black Adam really wants to he can stay full screen and react to lasers and just keep jumping over them, taking 0 damage while his trait builds up. Do some random Black Magic just for fun which is pretty safe at full screen. Then when he gets trait, go in and get your guaranteed 8% chip, then go back to your full-screen lame game that you win. Even up close Adams F1 is the speed and distance as Superman's F2, so with Superman's breath being -1 on block he's at a disadvantage in the mind game after the breath

For sure. D1 and F1 is straight murder up close. You must play flawlessly because any combination of D1, F1, trait, or B2 will spell disatser for Supes. Once he lands a couple combos, he can sit back, chip the snot out of you, and wait for you to rush. Like you said, meter is completely optional because the damage output is like Supes was in IGAU on day one. Everything that made BA good in IGAU is 5x better in I2.

Black magic is so much safer than it was in the first game too. When full-screen I used to be able to read and air dash to close the distance, but it seems like I'm always getting caught when I try to jump (probably how people felt with Grundy's MB swamp hands). Best chance when you're up close is to block is his starter ( usually D1, F1, or B2) and punish when he traits up. You'll eat a magic ball or 2, but it has been the best defense against him for me. Although the caveat is predicting trait because his animations are so much faster now that you'll get caught if you aren't fast enough...

King, is your Batman still awesome AF? I remember having great Grundy v Batman matches back in the day.

 

[Asodimazze]

arrow 5-5? i beat ga players with zero combos lul

Superman beats Supergirl easily. he doesnt lose to batman either lul

Beats Beetle, Joker and prob Lantern too. the rest is accurate enough

oh and i hate atrocitus as much as the next guy but i dont think he loses that either maybe if puddle actually punished air laser

Reasons for your statements? You beating anyone or losing to anyone is irrilevant

 

[Red Hood MKX]

I don't care what nobody says, Black Adam beats Superman too. He outdamages Superman meterlessly, outdamages Superman with trait meterlessly, outdamages Superman with trait and 1 bar. He just outdamages Superman period. Also Black Adam wins the full screen lame game, Superman is forced to rush down Black Adam. If Black Adam really wants to he can stay full screen and react to lasers and just keep jumping over them, taking 0 damage while his trait builds up. Do some random Black Magic just for fun which is pretty safe at full screen. Then when he gets trait, go in and get your guaranteed 8% chip, then go back to your full-screen lame game that you win. Even up close Adams F1 is the speed and distance as Superman's F2, so with Superman's breath being -1 on block he's at a disadvantage in the mind game after the breath

How do you feel about the batman black adam match up king i hear batman beats black adam is that accurate

 

[B. Shazzy]

Reasons for your statements? You beating anyone or losing to anyone is irrilevant

eh take it or leave it these things are pretty easy to tell and I play all characters mentioned plus some matchups since the first game its prob just more obvious to me.

 

[ForeverKing]

5-5 as long as Black Adam has his crazy damage

 

[Asodimazze]

eh take it or leave it these things are pretty easy to tell and I play all characters mentioned plus some matchups since the first game its prob just more obvious to me.

Why not just explain your numbers instead of writing pointless stuff?

 

[Tweedy]

I feel like the zoning is at worst even vs Arrow. You gotta use ground lasers a ton and place your instant air lasers right over his arrows. After you've done a few instant airs, you can feint them with an empty jump. If he jumps to meet you, you now have the advantage again when shooting ground lasers.

Up close Arrow just gets bullied. His buttons are slower, his advancing moves at sweep range aren't as good. His jump 3 is good but it gets bodied by instant jump 1.

Also remember, he gets 1 ice arrow and 4 fire arrows. Once he runs out he has to hit you or take a risk to get another load out. Hit him with mb db1s for loaindg arrow.

 

[B. Shazzy]

Why not just explain your numbers instead of writing pointless stuff?

im not the one posinga matchup chart with zero explainations. why dont you take your own advice?

 

[B. Shazzy]

Supergirl has no safe pressure options against Superman and is completely outdamaged. Supergirl has to outplay superman 100 times in neutral to do equal one superman corner combo.

Arrow/Beetle cant keep up with supermans zoning/better buttons/burst damage/ hard to pressure on wakeup etc etc Joker same thing except tht character is actually trash

Batman has terrible walkspeed has to to dash and jump in neutral takes a lot of damage trying to get in on Superman building meter, has better normals midrange. However Batman's trait, which superman has the mobility and meter to avoid, and up batarang MB keep him in the game.

When Superman beats characters its very clearly just doing his flowchart zoning and mobility /better buttons+damage and then getting corner control once and winning off one combo while taking like no real risk with huge reward using his tools appropriately idk why it requires an explanation lul. not sure what in depth analysis to go over in these matchups Superman does the same thing in every matchup and some characters just cant keep up period

 

[Tweedy]

I think Superman loses to Darkseid for sure. Superman gets obliterated in the zoning/lame game unless he gets a good meterburn roll. Darkseid just has to run away, shoot beams, get trait, and it's party time. Superman's only saving grace is up close I guess, but Darkseid has fast normals. Darkseid mains want to act like he's Bane and can't do shit against f23 pressure.

Imo Superman loses to Catwoman, Deadshot, Darkseid, Cyborg and slightly to Black Adam. Every other match up is even or advantage Superman imo.

Senpai Theo agrees with me about Cyborg so I feel like I don't need to explain, but his zoning is just weird for Superman. It's like the perfect storm of moves that turns Superman into a pure rushdown character. It's not like Arrow or Beetle where you can fish for trades and outzone. I don't think Superman is this amazing character when he has to do nothing but rushdown. He does nothing that kills you on block and his mix ups are either corner dependent or yolo asf. If characters like Cyborg and Darkseid are really patient and play off of breath instead of f23 trait, they're losing match ups imo.

I'm sure I don't need to explain Catwoman or Deadshot. Every Superman knows about those.

Black Adam outlames Superman, has stronger pressure with his trait plus frames, risk/reward is in his favor at all times. Not a hard match up for any crazy specific reason, I just think Adam beats him slightly overall.

 

[Red Hood MKX]

I think Superman loses to Darkseid for sure. Superman gets obliterated in the zoning/lame game unless he gets a good meterburn roll. Darkseid just has to run away, shoot beams, get trait, and it's party time. Superman's only saving grace is up close I guess, but Darkseid has fast normals. Darkseid mains want to act like he's Bane and can't do shit against f23 pressure.

Imo Superman loses to Catwoman, Deadshot, Darkseid, Cyborg and slightly to Black Adam. Every other match up is even or advantage Superman imo.

Senpai Theo agrees with me about Cyborg so I feel like I don't need to explain, but his zoning is just weird for Superman. It's like the perfect storm of moves that turns Superman into a pure rushdown character. It's not like Arrow or Beetle where you can fish for trades and outzone. I don't think Superman is this amazing character when he has to do nothing but rushdown. He does nothing that kills you on block and his mix ups are either corner dependent or yolo asf. If characters like Cyborg and Darkseid are really patient and play off of breath instead of f23 trait, they're losing match ups imo.

I'm sure I don't need to explain Catwoman or Deadshot. Every Superman knows about those.

Black Adam outlames Superman, has stronger pressure with his trait plus frames, risk/reward is in his favor at all times. Not a hard match up for any crazy specific reason, I just think Adam beats him slightly overall.

I feel like superman and batman makes a dawm good team batman beats catwoman and cyborg and goes even or beats darkseid and black adam imo. and superman helps bats out with the aquaman match up plus other annoying match ups for bats. the only match those 2 cant cover is deadshot, its probably 5/5 for bats but i just hate deadshot in general fuck that character. But all in all batman and superman is one heck of a good team

 

[Tweedy]

I feel like superman and batman makes a dawm good team batman beats catwoman and cyborg and goes even or beats darkseid and black adam imo. and superman helps bats out with the aquaman match up plus other annoying match ups for bats. the only match those 2 cant cover is deadshot, its probably 5/5 for bats but i just hate deadshot in general fuck that character. But all in all batman and superman is one heck of a good team

Most Batman's I talk to say he loses to Catwoman and Deadshot.

 

[Red Hood MKX]

Most Batman's I talk to say he loses to Catwoman and Deadshot.

Ill give you deadshot but in pretty sure bats beats catwoman ask foxy granda, reo etc.
He is one of the only characters that can anti air her ji2 with up batarang for a full combo punish, he can keep her out better than other zoning characters because of batarangs and mechanical bats which slows her down a ton. its one of the few bad match ups for catwoman its not like he bodies her but its definitely in bats favor even if it's slightly.

As for deadshot i can see that deadshot probably beats bats. I hear some batman mains say its 5/5 . But as for me i rather play superman in the deadshot match atleast supes can punish meter burn riffle sometimes on a read. like i said deadshot is probably the only character that superman and batman cant beat almost every one else is 5/5 or winning imo. So Not too bad, 1 bad match up out of 30 something characters i can live with that

 

[Tweedy]

When the archives go up on youtube i'll post them. Did pretty well in the zoning vs Burrito's Green Arrow in ESL, who is the 2nd highest ranked Green Arrow in the pro series I think.

In the grand finals runback he did better in the zoning but it was mostly from me giving up a life lead at the start of the round. I think the zoning is even at best for Green Arrow tbh. Ice Arrow is the only variable that can mess things up, but he only gets one of them.

 

[Asodimazze]

im not the one posinga matchup chart with zero explainations. why dont you take your own advice?

Explanations that I give everytime someone asks for some matchups, instead of wasting time. Anyway:

Supergirl has no safe pressure options against Superman and is completely outdamaged. Supergirl has to outplay superman 100 times in neutral to do equal one superman corner combo.

Thing is Supergirl doesn't have to pressure Superman in any way. She can just play defensively, punish Superman lasers, jumps, air dashes with her trait and lame him out. Approaching her is truly hard, her d2 is an incredible anti air and her mobility is just amazing. A very defensive Supergirl that only rarely goes for unsafe and use b12 only as a whiff punisher can make the match even.

Arrow/Beetle cant keep up with supermans zoning/better buttons/burst damage/ hard to pressure on wakeup etc etc Joker same thing except tht character is actually trash

I see both matchup as 5-5 because Arrow and Beetle can zone superman just fine if played correctly. None of them is forced to play Superman upclose, and catching them (expecially beetle) can be a problem. Beetle might be a 6-4 for Superman considering his low damage output though.

Batman has terrible walkspeed has to to dash and jump in neutral takes a lot of damage trying to get in on Superman building meter, has better normals midrange. However Batman's trait, which superman has the mobility and meter to avoid, and up batarang MB keep him in the game.

Batman is just hell imho:

1) He can't be zoned due to his mobility, he is not forced to get in mindlessly dashing around. Batmans that have problems to get around lasers are making mistakes. He can also keep superman in check using his own really good projectiles and trait.

2) He makes Superman scared of trying any approach when he has trait on. Got to respect him 100% of the time in neutral and Batman can approach almost freely.

3) Superman doesn't have any reliable anti air to counter his j2. only a pre emptive j1 works, but it's obviously a big gamble.

 

[B. Shazzy]

Explanations that I give everytime someone asks for some matchups, instead of wasting time. Anyway:



Thing is Supergirl doesn't have to pressure Superman in any way. She can just play defensively, punish Superman lasers, jumps, air dashes with her trait and lame him out. Approaching her is truly hard, her d2 is an incredible anti air and her mobility is just amazing. A very defensive Supergirl that only rarely goes for unsafe and use b12 only as a whiff punisher can make the match even.



I see both matchup as 5-5 because Arrow and Beetle can zone superman just fine if played correctly. None of them is forced to play Superman upclose, and catching them (expecially beetle) can be a problem. Beetle might be a 6-4 for Superman considering his low damage output though. patience goes along way especially when theres zero risk or urgency because again supergirl doesnt zone or do much if anyhing but wait for you to come in



Batman is just hell imho:

1) He can't be zoned due to his mobility, he is not forced to get in mindlessly dashing around. Batmans that have problems to get around lasers are making mistakes. He can also keep superman in check using his own really good projectiles and trait.

2) He makes Superman scared of trying any approach when he has trait on. Got to respect him 100% of the time in neutral and Batman can approach almost freely.

3) Superman doesn't have any reliable anti air to counter his j2. only a pre emptive j1 works, but it's obviously a big gamble.

superigirls risk/reward is awful and the player has to be a 100 times better than the Superman to win especially the longer you play against the character. F23 breath pressure is super effective aginst supergirl, superman is hard to oki effectively, and she has to play defensively just to survive in the matchup. Death by 1000 cuts vs a couple grabs and a trait corner combo isnt 5-5.
if you get hit by a laser here and there who cares, honestly, just get in one time and stay there youre fine.

Just walk in and shoot lasers in mid range where supergirl has to look for multiple things instead of fullscreen. If you sit and duck and just wait what is supergirl gonna even do to you? air dash in? react aa her. Attempt pressure with a string? Just mash D1 through the gaps and its your turn.


Arrow has to work harder than Superman to keep up and he does have to come in once 18% trait lasers start clipping him vs his 8% arrows that he has to stop zoning to manually reload. There's an arrow who made it to to gfs of Hometown heros or won it maybe on here that I literally beat with zero combos in ranked everytime. I cant see how the matchup is even at all when its the same zoning war from part 1 where arrow lost then. You have to make way too many mistakes too lose to arrow zoning.


Batman matchup

Some people know how to deal with Batman, others dont from my exp the way people talk about him they dont even understand the character and most overespect him or are afraid to just block. I havent lost to a batman player and ive played the ones that matter except King who actually asked to play a while ago. I'll wait to claim a definitive hard # until then regardless of the set outcome.

 

[Asodimazze]

superigirls risk/reward is awful and the player has to be a 100 times better than the Superman to win especially the longer you play against the character. F23 breath pressure is super effective aginst supergirl, superman is hard to oki effectively, and she has to play defensively just to survive in the matchup. Death by 1000 cuts vs a couple grabs and a trait corner combo isnt 5-5.
if you get hit by a laser here and there who cares, honestly, just get in one time and stay there youre fine.

Just walk in and shoot lasers in mid range where supergirl has to look for multiple things instead of fullscreen. If you sit and duck and just wait what is supergirl gonna even do to you? air dash in? react aa her. Attempt pressure with a string? Just mash D1 through the gaps and its your turn.


Arrow has to work harder than Superman to keep up and he does have to come in once 18% trait lasers start clipping him vs his 8% arrows that he has to stop zoning to manually reload. There's an arrow who made it to to gfs of Hometown heros or won it maybe on here that I literally beat with zero combos in ranked everytime. I cant see how the matchup is even at all when its the same zoning war from part 1 where arrow lost then. You have to make way too many mistakes too lose to arrow zoning.


Batman matchup

Some people know how to deal with Batman, others dont from my exp the way people talk about him they dont even understand the character and most overespect him or are afraid to just block. I havent lost to a batman player and ive played the ones that matter except King who actually asked to play a while ago. I'll wait to claim a definitive hard # until then regardless of the set outcome.

To me it looks that you consider your own results against other players too much when valuing the matchups, but I respect your point of view. Even king says that Batman beats Superman btw

 

[Red Hood MKX]

When the archives go up on youtube i'll post them. Did pretty well in the zoning vs Burrito's Green Arrow in ESL, who is the 2nd highest ranked Green Arrow in the pro series I think.

In the grand finals runback he did better in the zoning but it was mostly from me giving up a life lead at the start of the round. I think the zoning is even at best for Green Arrow tbh. Ice Arrow is the only variable that can mess things up, but he only gets one of them.

I just watched that set really good stuff tweedy. finally a superman player takes out that stupid character green arrow

 

[B. Shazzy]

To me it looks that you consider your own results against other players too much when valuing the matchups, but I respect your point of view. Even king says that Batman beats Superman btw

ya i speak from exp not theory fighter stuff thats how matchups should be discussed

and if it was just going by my Batman perspective then id say batman 10-0s superman. except i actually know how to play Superman effectively in this matchup and dont lose to batmen for that reason so which way am i being biased lul.

The only Superman that i believe in is Theo's tbh and there's only like 2/3 batmen so my standards on this matchup are really high so im prob the unreasonable one here. thats fine.

 

[B. Shazzy]

hey guise just wanna let you all know as godking superman i say what matchups are from now on hopee thats cleared up thnx 4 ur time

p.s. what do all my farts smell like back there in 5th tweedy lul but thats none if my business

 

[Tweedy]

Lul Shazzy everyone was smelling my farts for a while so I had to lose some matches with bill hood huh tth

 

[B. Shazzy]

did anyone hear that

must be me sorry hard to hear all the way up at the top of the superman ladder u guise lul