Injustice Zoning

[Euphoric]

But the question is will they use characters without zoning tools at tournaments themselves? I heavily doubt.

Everyone has tools, no one has even mastered their characters...how is everyone just assuming. At one point people thought Jax's zoning kept Kabal out, I think it is strong, but, the game will develop.

 

[TheSpore]

Zoning isn't the issue, lately it seems everyone has had a problem with the DS zoning. He is IMO lately been the master zoning guy, all the others I haven't had any issue getting around them.

 

[Datsumsharks]

99% of consumers dont know what an "oki set-up" mean. It is wrong when new players have do learn all of this while others just pick a zoning char and go easy mode. The game should feel fair and balance to new players, and as the OP said: "It is wrong to force this on newer players."

You're inflating that number hardcore. Even if they don't know it as Oki, they're gonna get what a wake up sitution is. Really I'd say about 50% of players are going to be just casual players who will never learn the game indepth. You're going to have a pretty broad middle point of players who will actually learn combos and set ups and then you've got pro level players.

I do not think they should cater a game to those players who will never learn and I would not play a fighting game made for them.

 

[PwnStar]

The point I was making is, people don't magically get fullscreen range away on you. The whole counter zoning idea is to prevent them from escaping.

read what i posted to cyke_out. getting fullscreen is VERY easy in this game. It's very easy to move backward in this game, unlike forward.

 

[PwnStar]

I think the real issue is simply forward movement needs a buff in this game, not that zoners need to be nerfed beyond maybe knockback or slight recovery tweeks if still necessary. Running backwards is just too strong right now for non-zoners to compete with once the distance is accomplished.

DS has plenty of bad MUs, but like MK this game is at risk of being a lot of 2-8 and 3-7 match ups, which is bad. Every character should have tools even in bad scenarios. I feel people are ignoring the DS issue is one of MUs and people not finding him a problem are not playing the characters who can't get in on him to understand the issue. He's really the only one where I feel fucked as GL. There are better zoners, but the match up is terrible in this case due to the nature of the guns taking away b1 as an option, how many anti air options he has full screen to stop me from firing rockets back, you can't b3MBxxDash, and low guns beating standing rocket.

 

[Datsumsharks]

Thats completely wrong, just look at street fighter IV, there is zoning but it doesn't feel annoying, and I'm sure that every developer that create zoning chars doesn' have in mind to annoy players.

I'm pretty sure Dhalsim is one of the most annoying characters in a fighting game. Ever played the Gief vs. Akuma match up? Trust me, good zoning is just as annoying in SF4 as it is here. Let's not even start with Morrigan/Doom in Umvc3

 

[aldazo]

I do not think they should cater a game to those players who will never learn...

well, right now Deathstroke seems to please them a lot, they win matches without learning nothing about him and just spamming bullets. Look, I'm all for getting rewards for learning and practice but then you have this char that goes easy mode and people say this is good go learn how to counter so I say nobody should have easy rewards, everybody char should be balance at start (for newer players) and after learning and practice (for "pros" or semi pros, etc)

 

[TheSpore]

I think the real issue is simply forward movement needs a buff in this game, not that zoners need to be nerfed beyond maybe knockback or slight recovery tweeks if still necessary. Running backwards is just too strong right now for non-zoners to compete with once the distance is accomplished.

DS has plenty of bad MUs, but like MK this game is at risk of being a lot of 2-8 and 3-7 match ups, which is bad. Every character should have tools even in bad scenarios. I feel people are ignoring the DS issue is one of MUs and people not finding him a problem are not playing the characters who can't get in on him to understand the issue. He's really the only one where I feel fucked as GL. There are better zoners, but the match up is terrible in this case due to the nature of the guns taking away b1 as an option, how many anti air options he has full screen to stop me from firing rockets back, you can't b3MBxxDash, and low guns beating standing rocket.

As I said before DS can cover the entir filed of battle with gun fire, he can do IAGs, Angle machine gun, mid machine gun(that counts as an overhead), mid pistols, and low pistols. Honestly where in the hell can the opponent go when dealing with it. Walking forward and ducking is going eat away you life slowly and jumping is too risky to even pray to dodge each shot. It really is nothing that can be done.

 

[aldazo]

I'm pretty sure Dhalsim is one of the most annoying characters in a fighting game. Ever played the Gief vs. Akuma match up? Trust me, good zoning is just as annoying in SF4 as it is here. Let's not even start with Morrigan/Doom in Umvc3

you mean ST dhalsim? that game is totally broke, that was the first fighting game! come on man. About SF4 and MvC3 they are totally different games, the zoning is not easy mode and you dont get such rewards as deathstroke get without practice.

 

[Amadeous]

I say they should buff walking speed or allow air blocking.

Either would help.

 

[Datsumsharks]

evrybody char should be balance at start (for newer players) and after learning and practice (for "pros" or semi pros, etc)

Then you'd need an entire cast with the exact same moveset. Projectiles in general are both easy for new players to use and hard for new players to deal with. Like I said before, they change the playing field. Most of the time the very core idea is "get next to that guy and beat him up" and you take that away from people.

You've got to learn to play patient. And that doesnt just apply to zoners really, you should be playing patient in some form or another against everyone because otherwise you're going to get blown up.

you mean ST dhalsim? that game is totally broke, that was the first fighting game! come on man.

No, I mean SF4 Dhalsim. Or Sagat for that matter. If you've been playing Street Fighter for a week those two are gonna mess you up.

 

[TheSpore]

Then you'd need an entire cast with the exact same moveset. Projectiles in general are both easy for new players to use and hard for new players to deal with. Like I said before, they change the playing field. Most of the time the very core idea is "get next to that guy and beat him up" and you take that away from people.

You've got to learn to play patient. And that doesnt just apply to zoners really, you should be playing patient in some form or another against everyone because otherwise you're going to get blown up.

No offense guy, but balance can be achieved without giving every character the same move sets, look at some of the table top style hobby games out there, hell look at a game liek Warhammer where every army is different and excels in a paticular field compared to another, but they are typically weaker in the opposite field. That is the problem one side holds way more power than the other.

 

[aldazo]

Then you'd need an entire cast with the exact same moveset.

To balance a game you dont need to make 20 batmans or 20 ryus, come on man, you know it is not true.

You've got to learn to play patient.

And zoning players dont need to learn nothing? is it good to spam special moves and get easy victories for newer players?

 

[Datsumsharks]

No offense guy, but balance can be achieved without giving every character the same move sets, look at some of the table top style hobby games out there, hell look at a game liek Warhammer where every army is different and excels in a paticular field compared to another, but they are typically weaker in the opposite field. That is the problem one side holds way more power than the other.

No offense take my friend, but there's always a top tier. There's always something that for whatever reason is better in more ways then other things. It may not be a huge gap, but there's always one. Some games are going to be better balenced but it's gonna be there.

 

[Datsumsharks]

And zoning players dont need to learn nothing? is it good to spam special moves and get easy victories for newer players?

If you spam the same projetile over and over you will get blown up. If you play it safe and have a game plan for you keep away then that's fine, you're earning your win.

 

[Amadeous]

The most balanced game out there is Guilty Gear XX Accent core. They managed to achieve perfect balance because it somehow ended up that way.

However that game was balanced from a professional level. There were still characters easier for new players to pick up.

When it come to balance changes new players get 0% say with nerfs in ASW games, that is why they are my favorite.

I'm not sure if NRS will nerf for scrubs though.

Also anyone who ever complains about "spam" needs to Stay Free. Fighting game rule #1, if it works, do it.

 

[Prinz]

Here's a tip - to avoid interactables - backdash. The invincibility of backdash negates interactables. Doesn't work on all of them, but on most used by power chars are avoidable.

 

[TheSpore]

No offense take my friend, but there's always a top tier. There's always something that for whatever reason is better in more ways then other things. It may not be a huge gap, but there's always one. Some games are going to be better balenced but it's gonna be there.

I was only explaining balance, but anyway IMO the zoning in the game isn't the issue at all, because there is only one zoning character that has been causing grief, which I have already voiced my opinion on.

As for balance everygame does balance differently, but overtime those games mechanice become altered and change when crazy exploitive unbalances appear and show up. I am sorry if I use Warhammer as an example, but I have been into that far longer than most FGs, a good example of this is take the Daemon army in WH, the whole army has the ability to negate attacks that would either outright kill them or barely do anything at all, this allows the player a sense of survivability, but here is the catch they can only fight in close combat, there goal is to get in close and kill, which iswhy they recieve the negating attribute, often these things come in to form of large mobs and outnumber the opponent, which in turn they all have stregnths, they can be very punishing, but they are still easily wounded, hence forth there is a balance. Balance does not mean all parties have exact same stats and skills, it mean for every + there is a - in the case with some characters in IGAU ther some with + only and some with - only.

 

[TheSpore]

Now lets all calm our nerves and have a beer and eat some cookies, cookies are FUCKING AWESOME!!!!

 

[Onilordasmodeus]

I'm no a pro player, and I frankly don't want to be, but FGs are my prefered genre and as such they are what I play and delve into. Bottomline when it comes to the zoning vs rushdown war, is that smart player can rush in and stay in as they have devised plans to do so, just as well as a smart zoner can get away and stay away. If Bane, or Grundy, or Flash get in on DS, or Cyborg, or Raven, they can keep them there and run shop. Yes Zoning can be/is annoying, and yes it is easy to do generally, but over all the player with the better skill, tactics, and the most knowlege wins.

Instead of all this zoning is OP talk, strategies need to continue to be shared and tested to level up the community so we can all just get better at this new game that has been put in front of us.

Everyone just needs to calm down and let the game continue to evolve.

 

[TheSpore]

I'm no a pro player, and I frankly don't want to be, but FGs are my prefered genre and as such they are what I play and delve into. Bottomline when it comes to the zoning vs rushdown war, is that smart player can rush in and stay in as they have devised plans to do so, just as well as a smart zoner can get away and stay away. If Bane, or Grundy, or Flash get in on DS, or Cyborg, or Raven, they can keep them there and run shop. Yes Zoning can be/is annoying, and yes it is easy to do generally, but over all the player with the better skill, tactics, and the most knowlege wins.

Instead of all this zoning is OP talk, strategies need to continue to be shared and tested to level up the community so we can all just get better at this new game that has been put in front of us.

Everyone just needs to calm down and let the game continue to evolve.

I agree with you in all and for the most part you are correct, but as I had addressed about the DS issue, is that honestly if that one character alone is giving everyone issues then there may be something needs further investigation. I fear no zoner honestly, and thus far DS is the only zoner that seems to be my problem as well as others. I am no pro player, but I can still somewhat hang with with big dawgs.

 

[RYX]

No.

If rush down is going to be mix ups galore, frame traps and armor, or just stupid shit in Doomsday's case then my zoning DESERVES to be good.

 

[Dizz_88]

Wow great thread I agree with you guys. Zoning seems very heavily dominating in this game. I could pick up a zoner up and have zoning wars but that is boring. Its like playing a Kenshi mirror match. MK9 was a lot more balanced when it comes to zoning characters and rushdown. Walk speed in this game is way to slow, and characters in injustice move like turtles.

I think NRS should make a dlc character similar to Mileena and/or Smoke. Two very good anti-zoning characters. That would be a great secondary to pick up. Flash is just not working out for me, but I will not drop Flash unless he ends up being low tier.

 

[Amadeous]

I disagree with Deathstroke being changed.

I DO, however think walk speed should be increased. This is a game with superheroes and a kid with ADHD playing this should be drooling at the mouth. I don't know why they decided superheroes would be so slow.

Also I love this game, if it sounds like I'm hating on it I'm not, just want to make it better like everyone else.

 

[TheSpore]

I disagree with Deathstroke being changed.

I DO, however think walk speed should be increased. This is a game with superheroes and a kid with ADHD playing this should be drooling at the mouth. I don't know why they decided superheroes would be so slow.

Also I love this game, if it sounds like I'm hating on it I'm not, just want to make it better like everyone else.

Walk speed yeah I kinda thought that myself as well, this is paticularly the reason I don't play Tekken and DOA 5 often.