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Injustice 2 is a Problematic Game

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Phew, time to get blown up again, but that's fine (anyone whose opinion I give a shit about has moved on to Discord, anyway...). I'm always willing to discuss things in a civil manner. I'll be ignoring any shitty responses. If you disagree, great, but please address the issues brought up and provide valid reasons, and I'll be happy to like your posts and admit any wrongness on my part. That said, here we go:

Injustice 2 is a "problematic game". What does that mean? Well, I think now, more than ever, we can feel the influence of WB over NRS. Rather than releasing a complete, working title, NRS has released a mess of of a fighting game with lopsided matchups, unfinished characters, input bugs, and money-grubbing strategies. Let's start with the gear system...

Gear

I was more than willing to give the gear system a shot. With a competitive mode included, I figured "great, I can customize my character and it won't affect gameplay. That sounds pretty damn cool." Unfortunately, it's not pretty damn cool. It's pretty damn shitty the way it's force down out throats. Rather than being an "optional" component, we are forced to play with gear enabled by default. This completely ruins any non-Ranked online game modes for those of us who want to play with baseline characters.

Even turning off gear is purposefully confusing. You can't just turn off gear. You have to turn on a mode that has the effect of turning off gear. It's purposefully ambiguous. Your average online player probably doesn't even realize how to turn off gear. WB, and by association NRS, want you to play with gear. They want you to spend 2,000 Source Crystals to transform a single piece of gear. They want those of us who paid $100 to still have to spend money on premium skins. The entire gear system is just free-to-play nonsense included in a $60 (or $100) game. It's criminal. It's insulting.

Not only is gear a cash grab, but moves that could have been included in characters' base sets were set aside as gear-only. This has ruined more than a few of the game's roster. Many character feel totally inadequate until you equip a move that should have been a default part of their move set to begin with. This is catering to the casual crowd (i.e. the piggybank) on an unprecedented level. I fully understand that NRS is a business and they need to make money, but they are doing so on the backs of their most loyal customers. They have sold us out to nickel and dime the Gamefaqs and Eventhubs casuals. Gear was supposed to be optional, but it has overtaken every facet of this game. Rather than making money by releasing a quality title that thousands of people will buy, they're releasing an incomplete, buggy, $65 (or $100) title that tries its very best to goad you into dropping as much additional cash as possible. It's shameful. Fuck you Ed Boon. Fuck your eyebrows too.

Bugs

Do I even need to mention the input bug? I've been playing fighting games since 1991 and I have never experienced anything like this. It kills me knowing time that could have been spent making a great fighting game was devoted to that anal wart they call they Gear system. The game is borderline unplayable in its current state. I play on Hitbox, and even going to neutral before going for a punish is futile, as the game holds the down or back input for an eternity.

As discovered by Red Raptor (or Red Reaper? I always get those two confused), the game is also riddled with option selects. I'm sure they'll be removed eventually (it's not like my $100 game should be complete or anything...), but for now characters can safely go for tic throws with no repercussions. Again, would this have been an issue if NRS wasn't wasting time on the gear system? Who knows.

Character Viability Discrepancy

This is the section I expect to get blown up on by NRS loyalists and character fanatics, but anyone who can't see the difference between Batman and Captain Cold or Superman and Brainiac is simply in denial.

This game is riddled with 7/3 and 8/2 matchups, which is really nothing new for NRS. Those of us who played Injustice 1 remember the block infinites on big-body characters. However, at least in that game, the big-body characters had some tools in some matchups. In this game we have characters like Captain Cold, who has a 3-hit all-high string. What? We have Brainiac, with a trait that goes away on hit or on block. We have Wonder Woman, whose trait is random for some unknown reason.

The issue is that the top 5 or 6 characters have all the tools. Batman shouldn't have the best zoning and the best rushdown. Neither should Superman, Black Adam, or Aquaman. But nonetheless we have these characters with extremely strong ranged presence also able to hold their own up close against any character in the cast. Why play Wonder Woman when you can play Aquaman and do everything she does, but better? Why play Cyborg when I can just play Batman and dominate from full-screen or up close?

It's insane seeing something like Batman's trait, which allows him to full-combo punish any gap or negative move in the game, which never goes away once called, and which he gains access to once every few seconds, alongside something like Brainiac's trait, which is slow, less + on block, can't punish gaps, and goes away on hit or block, or Captain Cold's trait, which must be charged while putting Cold at great risk. Who balanced this piece-of-shit game?

As it stands, there is no reason to play 90% of the roster; the top 5 or 6 have all the tools necessary to dominate any matchup. Any tournament players you see doing well with Cheetah, Robin, Joker, or anyone else are simply amazing players; it's the players doing well despite their characters' flaws.

Conclusion

It's late so I've got to wrap this up without saying everything I had in mind. If you enjoy the game then I'm genuinely happy for you. I've been waiting to play as Black Manta since I1 was first announced, and I plan to stick it out purely to play as him. But it is not a pleasant experience. The game is flawed in many, many ways. If you have an issue I have not brought up, please feel free to share it in the comments.

I have hope that NRS will begin correcting their mistakes. They'll give us a reason to use characters who are simply taking up space at the moment. They'll give us the option to make a competitive-only KOTH or room. But until then, I have to concede that this game is the worst example of corporate greed and incompetence, that it is a flawed and incomplete experience, and that even those some of us who paid $100 for the joy of playing it, WB and NRS expect us to dig deeper for the pleasure of getting zoned out and rushed down by the same 5 or 6 characters who do everything out characters do, only better.

TLDR: This game is a money-grubbing, incomplete, insulting piece of shit, and NRS should be ashamed.
I knew you were going to get blown up for pointing out truths (..imagine that?), but I have to say I agree with what you're saying.

With regards to the gear system, I think this is the way gaming has been going for a while now, NRS I guess are the first to try pay to win within the FGC? I suppose they did it with MKX to, by releasing broken characters for DLC.

We've just gotta hope that one day NRS add modes for the players who want to play a fair game (other than ranked) with each other at some point. It actually annoyed me that they didn't add a ft3 or ft5 option within the game and just basically copied and pasted the game modes from previous titles.

Anyway, you never know they might just listen to us and improve the game at some point.
 

B. Shazzy

NRS shill #42069
This game bothers me so much i don't know how to freaking feel sometimes. I'm personally enjoying it extremely, yet feel empty when not in the lab. Its so fucking hard to get games and its like my whole clan was all FUCKYA!!!! we gonna start playing together, growing together, and sharing tech like the old days.

..,.....know one playing this shit
I personally think this game didnt kill the casual player...
BUT the lack of a gearless KOTH and PLAYER MATCH killed the people like me and clans who want to be competitive in the screen, online warriors who find that badass rival and run long sets I think thats dead atm.

Needless to say i'm having alot of fun when fighting a few dedicated peeps but ultimately not getting a nice span of match up exp.
I dont want to say this, but if something doesnt change this games online activity will live only by DLC releases, that hurts cause i fucking love NRS games

On ps4 today all rooms combined for like 170 people all fucking day. I know most people hit ranked or player match, but MKX had fucking 8 rooms full 4 weeks into a game bruh

(Tldr) love the game but the online warriors don't have a diverse training ground:(

Edit::::: also if anyone is wondering what the hell i was doing it rooms (it was sad)
I WAS BEGGING for games (Looking for tourney matchs good connection plz)
Finally found a amazing harley player, we got like 50 matchs haha
lul there there buddy all you had to do was ask they call me the best around here i'll play you dont worry
 

Immortal

Blind justice....
I missed the part where I said he couldn't make this thread. What are you even talking about? I was asking him a pretty simple, straightforward question. Was there a goal he had in mind for the creation of this thread or is just another, yes another, venting thread?

I've never made a thread "wondering why people go to discord to talk". Again, no idea what you're talking about. You must be referring to the thread where I suggested people share tech they find and flesh out in Discord, on TYM. So it will help new players, the information will basically be logged, and so people not in the discord have access to it and can discuss it. How that even remotely ties into my questioning his purpose for this thread, again, no idea.

There seems to be this sense of very strange entitlement when it comes to making threads on this site. Like everyone can say anything they want without someone challenging it or questioning it. That's not how open dialogue works, that not how a forum works. You're free to say pretty much anything you want as long as it's within the rules, but what you say is also free to be disagreed with. And I didn't even disagree, I'm just curious as to what his motives are. If it's simply to vent then that is simply the answer. If it's something else, I'm curious as to what exactly that is.
I'm not sure i follow your logic - he shared his disappointment with the game it's clear as day. He did it publicly on forums, so people could if they wish - agree / disagree with him publicly, share their own concerns etc... It's quite obvious, you know and knew that even before you wrote your first post. He made that abundantly clear.

I've asked several people on Discord to read your post, coz maybe it's just me but nope. Not even one person had different feelings after reading your post than negative towards the creator of the thread. You make it sound like his thread has no point.
 

KingHippo

Alternative-Fact Checker
Honestly it probably was intentional, but it doesn't actually help anyone other than people who just mash buttons anyway.
My guess is this is the way the inputs have actually been this way forever, and the amount of complaining about it seems to vary from game to game. I've been playing older MK's recently, and they all have incredibly strict inputs where going back to neutral is the preferred method.

As for the reason, my other guess is that it's tough to reasonably ascertain how much leniency you need to give the 1 or 3 input when doing moves because the diagonal doesn't factor in. Odds are they made a choice a long time ago and stuck to it.

And to be fair, I've been labeling it an input bug too just becauss that's what everyone else has been calling it.
And that's a eal problem, IMO, because just submitting to language like that will inevitably make it as fact rather than like baseless forum speculation. People on Twitter are still talking about the "Aquaman bug" when that has been debunked literally from minute 1.
 
If you don't want to use gear then play competitive. The game isn't forcing you into using gear so it completely invalidates your "cash grab" argument. Balance isn't determined by the first month of a game and every single fighting has bad matchups and will continue to do so as long as the genre exists.

Now regarding the "input bug". You speak as if you're the only person dealing with it and that's not the case. I understand the frustration with it but there could be multiple factors as to why it happens. Quick example is you're using a hitbox but is it the latest PS4 hitbox and if not are you up to date with firmware? That applies to any controller that isn't the default pad for whatever system you play on. It's an online game so ping/latency may also play a part in any missed or delayed inputs. That's not to say the issue doesn't exist or deny that it may in fact be a bug but I personally have never experienced it.

Lastly you clearly just don't like the game considering in almost every recent post "game is garbage", "matchups are garbage" etc.. So my question is why play it? You've been waiting to play Black Manta and are playing until you get that chance so you're subjecting yourself to everything you dislike for a character not in the game when you could not play until he's added rather than constantly complaining about playing a game you don't like.
 
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JTC

ABILITY TO FREEZE
I honestly feel this whole 'input bug' thing was actually something intended by NRS. I dont see how can they miss this glaring issue.

What bothers me the most about the game is the character diversity. The meta now is straight up Black Adam, Aquaman, Superman, and Batman. This shit is straight up Inj1 all over again and history is repeating itself. Did the folks at NRS just port these guys over changed a bit of frame data and call it a day? Right now its so stale to watch because it feels like 2013 again. Sure it might be "too early" but are we really going to see these characters balance out with the rest of the cast through time? I however do not think so.
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Premium Supporter
I'm not sure i follow your logic - he shared his disappointment with the game it's clear as day. He did it publicly on forums, so people could if they wish - agree / disagree with him publicly, share their own concerns etc... It's quite obvious, you know and knew that even before you wrote your first post. He made that abundantly clear.

I've asked several people on Discord to read your post, coz maybe it's just me but nope. Not even one person had different feelings after reading your post than negative towards the creator of the thread. You make it sound like his thread has no point.
I mean that's pretty much my point, and the crux of the problem. Anything that isn't perceived as ultimately a positive response, is immediately deemed overtly negative. And the even more confusing part is I still haven't even diagreed with him! I've known @karaokelove for awhile now and I don't claim to be close or anything, but even so I'm still unsure if it's just regular karaoke venting or he has some other goal in mind.

Which only he can answer, by the way. You can keep answering for him if you'd like though.
 

Immortal

Blind justice....
I mean that's pretty much my point, and the crux of the problem. Anything that isn't perceived as ultimately a positive response, is immediately deemed overtly negative. And the even more confusing part is I still haven't even diagreed with him! I've known @karaokelove for awhile now and I don't claim to be close or anything, but even so I'm still unsure if it's just regular karaoke venting or he has some other goal in mind.

Which only he can answer, by the way. You can keep answering for him if you'd like though.
You're right, only he can answer that. I just pointed out that youre negative towards the creator of the thread, nothing more. That was my point and im done.
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Premium Supporter
My guess is this is the way the inputs have actually been this way forever, and the amount of complaining about it seems to vary from game to game. I've been playing older MK's recently, and they all have incredibly strict inputs where going back to neutral is the preferred method.

As for the reason, my other guess is that it's tough to reasonably ascertain how much leniency you need to give the 1 or 3 input when doing moves because the diagonal doesn't factor in. Odds are they made a choice a long time ago and stuck to it.



And that's a eal problem, IMO, because just submitting to language like that will inevitably make it as fact rather than like baseless forum speculation. People on Twitter are still talking about the "Aquaman bug" when that has been debunked literally from minute 1.
This could be true, at least for MKX and Injustice 2. Having a block button does make a lot of difference when it comes to buffering and punishing on block, etc. Maybe it just went more unnoticed than in Injustice 2.

And yes, submitting to the language everyone else is using just because they're using it is definitely a dangerous thing. It would be nice though if NRS could confirm or deny if it was intentional or not. By this time I'm more inclined to agree with you that it was intentional, otherwise it probably would have been addressed by now, at least in some capacity.
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Premium Supporter
You're right, only he can answer that. I just pointed out that youre negative towards the creator of the thread, nothing more. That was my point and im done.
Honestly I'm a fairly negative person, no point in denying that. But I didn't make my post with the intention of it being negative or for it to be an attack of any sort. A lot of people are obviously frustrated, along with myself, and it's not unreasonable at all, imo.
 

KingHippo

Alternative-Fact Checker
It would be nice though if NRS could confirm or deny if it was intentional or not.
I realize this is probably the ideal scenario for most, but imagine them doing this. The devs trying to communicate their intentions with the community almost always goes bad, because inevitably a large mass will go "Well, they're liars" or "Well that's stupid," and nothing positive comes out of it. Look at Keits and KI; for years he would argue with the top guys about minutiae like gameplay and balance until he literally had to stop because it got to heated. It's just too slippery a slope.

I mean, again as an example, we had no less than three actual devs come and say Aquaman wasn't bugged, but people still say it. People just won't listen because it's not what they want to hear, ever. Their perspective is completely different, for better or worse, than what this site wants to hear most of the time.
 

Helter Skelter

CHIPPINGxTRAPPINGxZONING
There seems to be this sense of very strange entitlement when it comes to making threads on this site. Like everyone can say anything they want without someone challenging it or questioning it. That's not how open dialogue works, that not how a forum works. You're free to say pretty much anything you want as long as it's within the rules, but what you say is also free to be disagreed with. And I didn't even disagree, I'm just curious as to what his motives are. If it's simply to vent then that is simply the answer. If it's something else, I'm curious as to what exactly that is.
Millennials, haha.

The bit that truly made me smile was reading that the OP had so many grievances with the game but still wanted to stick it out until Black Manta. Surely, if you believe that something is so fundamentally wrong then one character wouldn't be able to change that? Especially if that character with further the agenda of the game you're so obviously dissatisfied with.
 
Two questions;

1) Did you actually read his post?
2) Have you even played the game?
Yes and yes. I said that it invalidated the cash grab claim and that it isn't forced. I don't like that gear is enabled by default and agree completely that it should be the opposite just like most people do. My interpretation of forced is that there is no other option aside from what is forced and in this scenario that's not the case.
 
Yes and yes. I said that it invalidated the cash grab claim and that it isn't forced. I don't like that gear is enabled by default and agree completely that it should be the opposite just like most people do. My interpretation of forced is that there is no other option aside from what is forced and in this scenario that's not the case.
So we're forced to play the opponent with their gear (possibly paid for) or back out of the match and take a loss? Inherently flawed if you ask me.
 

Tanno

The Fantasy is the Reality of the Mind
Fortunately, I didn't bother going in ESL and what-not when I realized those problems by myself. I used the Ranked matches just for training against ACTUAL opponents, and I used the loadout w/ gears and abilities to test them out. And I grinded only the Multiverse for the gears, the skins and the abilities. To be fair, I wouldn't go to the competition without the competition mode ON everywhere in the online element of this game.

Speaking of the input bugs, I have felt upon them so many times there. Thanks to them we can't lab on those chars any further. Everything is cool and fine, but with these inputs bugs we're not going any further.

And another problem is that I, and I think some others as well, have a problem with the cross-up jump in attacks. Compared to the MKX, that I got used to it, the INJ2 version is the worst of all. I can't even hop over to avoid the incoming attacks, if I miss the jump in attack I input.

Speaking of the abilities, they SHOULD have been in the competition mode ON WITHOUT the gear stats. Another problem to them is the replacement of some of the basic abilities with the gear abilities, just like with Captain Cold's Ice Burst (gear ability that gets unlocked at 20lvl) replacing the Ice Blast (the zoning one) with the fucking same keymappings. I have NEVER ever encountered a game that would replace the abilities. NRS should put in their mind that these gear abilities need to be remapped with different inputs. So far I noticed that there are only four basic inputs (DF, DB, BF, and DBF) for each face button, so why not use the keymap to any of those other UNUSED inputs? I guess that you guys might have been bored to easily remap them. I have seen other games, and especially Guilty Gears, to have ALL the basic inputs used for each ability a char has.

The online element (excluding the private and PvP games that you can call your opponent you faced) has a serious problem here and that's the random matchmaking there. Most of my time I fall upon dudes that have 150+ ms lag (way to the start of the release date, I felt upon those with 250+ ms(!), so high I thought I played with NTSC or Australia sides). Almost rarely, I fall upon two or three dudes having lower than 100 ms. The matchmaking I liked was the MKXL PC version, which you could find opponent, first of all, closest to you, and then, finally, in the world. Sorry, but my connection is just fine with the latest technology stuff, but my country's local connection is a complete garbage, which makes it banned for me to play against NTSC or Australia sides.

Finally, I don't like companies that create broken games and then sell them to the world as they are for a great sum of money. They remind me of these hateful companies, called EA and Microsoft. I came to Injustice 2 to test this game out since it was my very first game, but with the ton of problems it has I don't know if I want to come competitive at any tourney. Sorry, NRS, but you got your ass sitting on WB's penis on that one for being asked to create a broken game just to earn money. I don't recognize you from the old times where you created the games just for the fun and for the competition anymore. You're like KONAMI who fucks every company just for the money.

@Juggs , I think that his point in the OP is to straighten NRS's mind to finally fix all this mess and stop asking for money. I will agree with @karaokelove on this one with all those problems this game has. He's not going to create a new thread for that. This mess with the companies wanting to earn money just by selling broken games and softwares has to stop. Fortunately, some companies like Kojima Productions and CDP sent a fuck you message to all of these companies, and this is why I respect them.

Have fun, everyone.
 
So we're forced to play the opponent with their gear (possibly paid for) or back out of the match and take a loss? Inherently flawed if you ask me.
Why are you worried about win/loss in a non competitive setting? It doesn't make you any better or worse as a player and means absolutely nothing. It's a number..... nothing more and nothing less.
 
The input buffer actually makes certain matchups stupidly annoying, like blue beetle vs cyborg for example. Since blue beetle can put 2 fireballs on the screen you dont have much time to jump between them, if you try to duck the first one and jump before the second gets too close, you will get accidental forward grapple a ton. This is something that needs to be fixed before any character balancing, there should be half the buffer if even that when it comes to doing special moves in neutral, when you are not canceling from a normal. There are no DP or double roll motions in this game i dont see who in the world couldnt do down back fast enough
 

EMPRESS_SunFire

Regina George of discord
Again, I ask, is there not a pretty legitimate possibility that the inputs are the way they are because of design? I've pointed out before that there has been some pretty extensive changes to the way the games work in MKX, so why wouldn't they be able to fix it if it was truly a bug?

You don't have to like it (like me, you can find it pretty irritating most of the time), but I think to label it a bug when it's (more than likely) not is a little disingenuous.
I really doubt that since the issue happens with both alternate and normal controls on and with negative edge on and off... It would at least make sense if it only happened with normal controls on but even then it shouldn't be a problem at all, no one should have to learn weird timings to punish someone, we already have to deal with stuff like blockstun so please let us have clean reversals at least.
 
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