Question If Kabal was nerfed, do you think the game would be less scrubby?

[RYX]

even if kabal was banned o nerfed, the people that always asking for this, will loose against others characters. A good player can defeat Kabal using any character of mk9, always there is a way to defeat kabal...

A good Kano will never beat a good Kabal though, not without some serious steroid buffs.

Some match-ups are simply impossible with Kabal; that's the simple truth.

 

[Maxter]

Stryker beats Kabal ...

"Oh you wanna dash?, Get shot bitch"

Si o No? Maxter

Si/oui

 

[Espio]

A good Kano will never beat a good Kabal though, not without some serious steroid buffs.

Some match-ups are simply impossible with Kabal; that's the simple truth.

No match up is impossible, I've defeated good Kenshis with Jade, good Kung Laos with Sheeva, and good Kabals with Stryker. Innovation is how you win and putting in the time and work.

 

[Gurpwnder]

No match up is impossible, I've defeated good Kenshis with Jade, good Kung Laos with Sheeva, and good Kabals with Stryker. Innovation is how you win and putting in the time and work.

That's a great attitude to have in this community, but a lot of people are lacking it. Every character is essentially a set of tools, it's up to the players to use these tools however they see fit to win.

 

[RYX]

STB Espio That's sweet n stuff, but none of those people were Kano. They all have a chance because they have tools that aren't completely terrible, but Kano vs Kabal is a suicide mission, which is my point; not every character can win every MU(in a set) versus another character with two players at their very best.

Kano sucks.

 

[THTB]

Tbh, matchup numbers are only really a big deal in long sets anyway and are very theoretical to begin with. As long as one character does not have an auto-win option, it's not impossible to win 2 matches in a tournament.

On a sidenote, 3/5 tournament settings actually bring out a game's imbalances way harder.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

After 20 pages, no one has been realistic about the situation NRS is in. So I'll say it:

Everyone has forgotten that it makes the most sense for NRS to balance games for the majority of the players that play them.

It's an issue that you can't get around, no matter how you try; what sense does it make for NRS to take a character that's not a problem in the hands of 99% of players, and make him worse. Obviously as competitively-minded players we're focused on tools that the top 1% of players can use effectively; but in reality, if a character like Kano was made better than he is, he'd completely dominate online and most matches with players of a regular skill level.

People saying stuff like 'get rid of armor' are forgetting that most of the couple million players that bought this game still have problems fighting spamming Sindels, Noobs, and Kitanas.. This is part of the reason armor was introduced, as it gives people that are not experts at making their way through 'cheap' tactics a way to fight back.

So, this is a problem that we still need some discussion around: how to make a consumer-friendly game that is still reasonable in competitive play. It's not as easy as people make it out to be.

 

[RYX]

People saying stuff like 'get rid of armor' are forgetting that most of the couple million players that bought this game still have problems fighting spamming Sindels, Noobs, and Kitanas.. This is part of the reason armor was introduced, as it gives people that are not experts at making their way through 'cheap' tactics a way to fight back.

I thought that was what teleports were for.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

I thought that was what teleports were for.

How many characters have teleports? 8 out of 32?

 

[RYX]

How many characters have teleports? 7 out of 32?

Is the point not valid? Not everybody has armor moves either, but what is the defense for those characters that got shafted?

If everybody had an armored move I'd be fine with it, but it's not like that so I don't consider it very fair. :/

 

[JacopeX]

Nerfing high tier characters is not how you balance a game at all.

That is the same mistake capcom has made with its own games countless times and it only caused a lot of useless characters/bad match ups. Back when AE first came out, the twins and fei long were the best in the game and had tons of great match ups and only about two or three characters were able to actually stand a chance if this were based on ratio. But what I truly loved was how tournament players actually tried to find ways around these characters, use their tools to their own advantage, and try to win to move on in the tournaments they participated instead of giving up and letting a character become their excuse.

Anyways, since the twins were such a problem and there was so much backlash from the competitive scene that they all wanted them nerfed, without any thought. Capcom went along and nerfed the hell out of these characters, taking away most of the tools that made them extremely viable to now semi viable. Fei Long suffered the most IMO after the 2012 patch, which included, for some retarded reason, every character in the roster. But my point is, was this the overall game changer? Did this balance the game in anyway? NO! This just fucked it up to what it has now become an unbalanced game where the current high tiers now have easier advanced options (unblockable, meterless damage, frame advantage) unlike the others, and the ideal balance is still not there since low tiers are a lot more useless than before.

How to balance MK9?

Not Nerf Kabal (Leave him the way he is)
Buff the High tiers very slightly
Buff everyone else and give them tools to help them against their worst match ups

Of course, this will not happen. So I suggest you all step your game up and play the game the way it is. Overcome your worst match ups. You are all more than fortunate that this game got patched unlike fighters from before, where people who actually wanted to learn and loved the game tried there best to overcome skill and match up advantage. Develop the meta game, and do less complaining. NRS is gone.

Videos related. 9-1 matches

 

[Gurpwnder]

Nerfing high tier characters is not how you balance a game at all.

That is the same mistake capcom has made with its own games countless times and it only caused a lot of useless characters/bad match ups. Back when AE first came out, the twins and fei long were the best in the game and had tons of great match ups and only about two or three characters were able to actually stand a chance if this were based on ratio. But what I truly loved was how tournament players actually tried to find ways around these characters, use their tools to their own advantage, and try to win to move on in the tournaments they participated instead of giving up and letting a character become their excuse.

Anyways, since the twins were such a problem and there was so much backlash from the competitive scene that they all wanted them nerfed, without any thought. Capcom went along and nerfed the hell out of these characters, taking away most of the tools that made them extremely viable to now semi viable. Fei Long suffered the most IMO after the 2012 patch, which included, for some retarded reason, every character in the roster. But my point is, was this the overall game changer? Did this balance the game in anyway? NO! This just fucked it up to what it has now become an unbalanced game where the current high tiers now have easier advanced options (unblockable, meterless damage, frame advantage) unlike the others, and the ideal balance is still not there since low tiers are a lot more useless than before.

How to balance MK9?

Not Nerf Kabal (Leave him the way he is)
Buff the High tiers very slightly
Buff everyone else and give them tools to help them against their worst match ups

Of course, this will not happen. So I suggest you all step your game up and play the game the way it is. Overcome your worst match ups. You are all more than fortunate that this game got patched unlike fighters from before, where people who actually wanted to learn and loved the game tried there best to overcome skill and match up advantage. Develop the meta game, and do less complaining. NRS is gone.

Videos related. 9-1 matches

Fei Long is still an extremely good character, arguably still among the best, just watch Fuudo and Mago during Canada cup 2012. Fei Long and the twins were the only nerf victims in the 2012 patch that stood out. Almost everyone else got buffs or got a relatively even amount of buffs and nerfs. Even though Yun got the shaft, Kakunozo still makes him work, so a couple of nerfs aren't really as bad as you make them out to be.

 

[RYX]

Most characters have armor, but almost every character that doesn't IS one of the zoners or is highly mobile. It's the other characters that use the armor to get through to them.

The two top zoners have armored specials(that combo, no less). Highly mobile characters have armor on advancing moves( EX Spin, EX Dash, Reptile's slide). The zoners that don't have armor are the ones that are usually the easiest to get around(or maybe that's just Noob because lol).

Kitana has an armored escape move(one of the spam characters you mentioned, I've been told it's pretty good too.), Sindel and Noob don't have armor but they should because they're awful under pressure. The others at least have some kind of escape or back-up plan when somebody gets too close for comfort. Noob has to get a lucky poke and link to upknee, then it's a guessing game(not to mention it's whiff punished so fucking badly) on what the other person is gonna do next.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Kitana has an armored escape move(one of the spam characters you mentioned, I've been told it's pretty good too.), Sindel and Noob don't have armor but they should because they're awful under pressure. The others at least have some kind of escape or back-up plan when somebody gets too close for comfort. Noob has to get a lucky poke and link to upknee, then it's a guessing game(not to mention it's whiff punished so fucking badly) on what the other person is gonna do next.

I think you missed the point; but in either case, the logic behind characters like sindel noob and shang was to reward people once they actually get in on them. Which in most cases with casual play balances out; it's only at the high level where people are more adept at negating their zoning abilities that it becomes a liability.

For most players of the game it's still hard enough to make it in at all; and people forget this.

 

[aj1701]

How does Kabal take away hype anyway? He plays at such a fast speed and has some of the highest execution in the game. Isn't that a little entertaining?

Not for me. He's my least favorite since mk3. I never liked him at all, I think he's incredibly boring, always have. Not saying to ban him, but as a character he's just lame. I used to think that about the robots UN mk3 as well, and Stryker, but I started to like them in mk9... but not Kabul, lol.

 

[Flagg]

Armour distribution was terribly done in this game.

Every character should have just ONE ARMOURED SPECIAL. Everyone.

Be nice if there had been an option to choose which ex specials to give armour properties to, a bit like a Super Art.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Armour distribution was terribly done in this game.

Every character should have just ONE ARMOURED SPECIAL. Everyone.

The reason I don't agree with this is it doesn't take into account each character's toolset/playstyle at all. Some characters might have the tools to get by fine without armor; others may need a couple of armored moves to compete with certain characters on a general level. To just say "give every single character 1 armored move" has the result of unbalancing things rather than balancing them.

 

[STRYKIE]

I'll respect people's complaints about armor when they show a better grasp of frame data or/and zoning.

Yours sincerely, Scorpion player, wielder of the most unreliable armor in the game.

 

[RYX]

The majority of the cast shouldn't have armor; they really don't need it more often than not(meaning they'd still be good without it). Jax, for example, really should have it because he has no other way to get momentum midscreen and to be fair I think he'd go way down the tier list without. Someone like Kung Lao would still be blowing the backs off people without an armored teleport or spin.

Back to your point, though: I don't like that. Because I give beginners and some average players problems with Noob's mediocre zoning, they are given the tools to negate my zoning and in some cases my pressure too? Armor seems like something that only lowers the average skill level: given so much reward for so little real risk.

 

[redeyes]

you guys mad cause i have an armored safe laucher? sucks to be you ;D

 

[MortySeinfeld]

I think REO wants everyone to just admit what he already knows, and that Kabal is flat out broken. People are just too stubborn to admit it.

I think Reo really just wants to play Kenshi because he's getting tired of Kabal so he's trying to get him nerfed/banned.

 

[MortySeinfeld]

even if kabal was banned o nerfed, the people that always asking for this, will loose against others characters. A good player can defeat Kabal using any character of mk9, always there is a way to defeat kabal...

I like your optimism, but this game really isn't that deep.

If the game had a larger offline presence, this would be the state of the game:

- Kabal
- Kenshi
- Kung Lao

 

[THTB]

Fei Long suffered the most IMO after the 2012 patch

No he didn't. The only thing Fei lost was double rekka bullying and some damage, and a barely useful combo to sweep. He's still very good. Most Fei players still use him.

Yang got hit even worse than Fei by far. Went from top 3 to like low-mid tier. He got fucked up that bad.

If you don't nerf things, you end up with a game that's just stupid because everything is absurd unless you develop the entire game around this stuff, which means mechanical changes.

 

[Big D]

TL;DR all of it.

Dont nerf him, dont ban him, dont do ANYTHING! He is not to the point where the character is unbeatable. He just poses more of a challenge. If me, of all people, can see him as beatable, then you all can. I have had my ASS handed to me by almost every Kabal out there, and I still think he is beatable. The point is, it can be done! I think it was Tom Brady that said how these characters werent broken because its not like they win at the character select screen. They dont automatically "win for existing."

 

[STRYKIE]

The majority of the cast shouldn't have armor; they really don't need it more often than not(meaning they'd still be good without it). Jax, for example, really should have it because he has no other way to get momentum midscreen and to be fair I think he'd go way down the tier list without. Someone like Kung Lao would still be blowing the backs off people without an armored teleport or spin.

Back to your point, though: I don't like that. Because I give beginners and some average players problems with Noob's mediocre zoning, they are given the tools to negate my zoning and in some cases my pressure too? Armor seems like something that only lowers the average skill level: given so much reward for so little real risk.

This appiles to non-armored moves too, for example, why should Kabal's buzzsaw be full combo punishable? Sounds like nothing but matchup induced salt to me.