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Question - Tempest How would you nerf Tempest?

The PantyChrist

Rest in Pantiez
To those complaining about jump back 2. How many does he get before he corners himself? You already know you shouldn't be jumping against lao
I don't see how that pertains to anything I've said so far. You can't mash armor after a knockdown, Tempest takes that away. The mixup he gets is his unreactable stagger pressure, which happens to be what's so ridiculous about him on top of all his other great tools.
How is his armor breaking unreactable? As far a so know all he has is hat spin after the kd and follow with a normal or the 212 part of 112124. Both are pretty reactable, unless you also want to talk about ex divekick....
Oh, I forgot lao mains have never heard of a bad matchup.
:DOGE

-5 would suffice I guess but I never want to be hit by an instant jump back dive kick again.
just read, block and full combo punish. He only gets about 20-25% the risk reward is in your favor
 

Goat-City

Banned
A.) whats this about throws being reactable, I haven't heard of this
B.) I'm talking about balance in this current patch and so are you, don't option select out like this because if that's the case we already know what it looks like NRS has planned for Lao and buffing block breakers and cutting his damage by 4-6% ON TOP OF the nerfs he's already receiving at this stage is just ridiculous


Great, so while my opponent get's 1 bar block breakers against my pressure that I rely on, I now get 1 bar block breakers against theirs. Completely balanced and fair change right?

Except for the fact that not all characters rely on pressuring on block the same amount. What if say I'm playing against Grandmaster Sub, a character already above Hellfire on any man's tier list, and while he has no block pressure to be affected at all, me on the other hand as Scorp has just given the option to break out of my pressure for a single bar to my opponent. Not to mention that it ALSO costs me my entire stamina bar that I rely on to play MKX.

If you can't see how this affects every character differently, then at this point I'm convinced you are just closing your eyes and sticking your fingers in your ears, because you personally WANT 1 bar breakers, but that does not make it a sensible change. We've balanced the game and all pressure characters in it so far around 2 bar block breakers, characters that rely on long blockstrings would need massive buffs or they are just copping a big hit with this absolutely unnecessary change, and too take this route would be just as dumb. Drop the campaign.
A.) In the beta people are saying they're much more reactable now.
B.) What nerfs are you talking about him already receiving? And what option select are you talking about?

You don't think I already knew that? What did I already tell you? They still cost 1 whole bar, if the opponent breaks your pressure you're forcing them to spend a bar, which is either the equivalent of or better than what you would get anyways even without reactable grabs. So yeah the Grandmaster Sub player would have more use for block breakers than you would, but it still costs a bar for him to use them. It would not significantly over or underpower either of them because of the fact that they cost a bar. Besides, Grandmaster needs to be nerfed anyways, in fact he took a slight damage nerf in the beta, that might be enough. If Hellfire needs to be buffed then he needs to be buffed, but you acting like 1 bar block breakers makes a significant difference in the current balance of the match up is what I disagree with. If it costs a bar it makes very little difference, it's characters like Tempest Lao and Tanya that would be effected by it more because they get more out of their pressure than Hellfire does, but that also means they build more meter than him so it's not much different there either, that's why Tempest needs a damage nerf too unless there's something else about him that he could stand to be nerfed instead that would make more sense.

Drop the campaign? The thread asks how Tempest Lao should be nerfed and I think 1 bar block breakers are a good way to do that. I'm only continuing to talk about it because I've got people replying in disagreement.
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
I

I've been kicked out of ex spin njp out of ex spin I even have proof
Shinnok doesn't have weapons on his NJP yet, is stupid NJP is a disjointed hitbox for no reason, i get hit out of my spins from that shit.

While everyone is crying over tempest "magic guessing pressure" i'm just here asking myself why there are characters in this game which cannot be anti-aired, or trip guarded.
 

WiseM0nkey

welcome to the ButtSlam
You're not addressing what makes his pressure stupid. The tempest player is at very little risk while staggering his opponent and his opponent is at a huge risk for making the wrong ridiculously hard to make read. If the opponent guesses wrong he eats 30-40% into the same situation while not being able to armor because he'll just get armor broken. All of that on top of everything else he has makes him ridiculous. He either needs to get much less reward on his guessing games, which can't happen, less risk for the opponent on his guessing games, which can't happen, or give the opponent a definite way out of the guessing games for a reasonable price, which would be 1 bar block breakers. Now the match is more fun and less brain dead/more fair.
how's escaping from a stagger a "ridiculously hard to make read?" 11212 it's easy to spot, it's -3, you can poke out, 11 is +1 high, but there are multiple ways around that, throw in the corner is not a 50/50 99% of the time, cause unless you are GM sub i'll probably thorw you forward, tho you probably better duck it and punish it instead of teching it... both 11 and 11212 staggers are reactable, and i dont have the advantage against most of the cast, considering the speed of my normals. Ex hat "pressure" has only a d4 has a frame trap (and thank god i have a guaranteed d4 so i can use a damn mindgame without having a 50/50), everything else he does it's armorable / pokable.

after ex hat i have to read what you gonna do, just like you have to read my staggers, if not reacting to them, wich is possible. And that's Tempest rushdown.

it's completely fair in a FG to make reads, react to stuff, having mindgames to work with. it's not braindead conditioning people to do stuff, cause I'm earning it by making micro decisions wich would affect YOUR reads.

on the other hand, 1 bar block breakers it's a BRAINDEAD ass request, cause not only it would completely destroy Tempest rushdown, but would make block pressure even less effective for the rest of the cast.

sounds like you wanna have it simple, instead of learning your way outs and work on MUs.
 

Apex Kano

Kano Commando main MKX
My fights agaisnt him seems preett fair. Kung Lao is prone to getting uppercutted far to many times for jumping and teleporting. Plus Kano has fast knives, we don't care about that silly hat.
 
My fights agaisnt him seems preett fair. Kung Lao is prone to getting uppercutted far to many times for jumping and teleporting. Plus Kano has fast knives, we don't care about that silly hat.
This^^^. Let's see...Kano, Kotal, Lui, Quan, Kenshi, Reptile and Mileena can easily uppercut Lao without thinking. His J2 loses to so many characters J1, I don't even bother with it. Also, a lot of standing 1's can disrupt a J2.

I personally do not think Lao should be touched. There are only a handful of Lao's causing problems. The number has diminished greatly since MKX's release.

I'm biased because I can't learned multiple characters and Lao is my main. :)
 

WiseM0nkey

welcome to the ButtSlam
db1 is a combo starter special that doesn't require meter, I don't think this kind of moves should be safe.
wich can be easly armored through / backdashed, besides 112124 and b2. with a punishable hat tempest will be useless. He'll be an Ermac without 50/50s. without being able to use his best normals (wich are not hit-confirmable).

-3 is not my turn. But it's your job to make me understand that.
 

Asodimazze

https://twitter.com/AlfioZacco
wich can be easly armored through / backdashed, besides 112124 and b2. with a punishable hat tempest will be useless. He'll be an Ermac without 50/50s. without being able to use his best normals (wich are not hit-confirmable).

-3 is not my turn. But it's your job to make me understand that.
You do a random hat spin after a poke and I get hit trying to counterpoke = combo and oki for you
I block it = -3, you jump back and evade nearly every option against many characters, or backdash, or armor, or low poke or whatever. Lao still has a ton of options. The risk/reward favors Tempest way too much

A special meterless combo starter should be punishable imho. Players should learn to hit confirm their strings into hat spin to get a combo and stop throwing it out randomly
 

WiseM0nkey

welcome to the ButtSlam
You do a random hat spin after a poke and I get hit trying to counterpoke = combo and oki for you
I block it = -3, you jump back and evade nearly every option against many characters, or backdash, or armor, or low poke or whatever. Lao still has a ton of options. The risk/reward favors Tempest way too much

A special meterless combo starter should be punishable imho. Players should learn to hit confirm their strings into hat spin to get a combo and stop throwing it out randomly
doing pokexxhatspin is pretty dumb and nobody does that, easy to spot and it gives you nothing, as far as tempest gamplan goes.

-3? ok then:

1) jump back = nearly every instant air jump punch/kick beat my empty jump or jump back 2
2) backdash = my backdash is booty, read it and punish it, for instance, Johnny f3 will catch my bdash everyday
3) armour = cant armor after a blocked regular hat cause i dont have the hat on my head
4) low poke = if you press any of your pokes, you'll beat everything i have, even mids are good, Lao's normal have pretty average speed.

like, if try to press d4 at -3 against Kotal, i get launched by his b1. nearly every options i have are full combo punishable. so the risk / reward is not in my favour.

if i cancel my f2/b2 into hat spin is not because Im throwing it out randomly, it's because those normals dont launch their own without the hat. I'm just making the most out of my best buttons, and ofc i hit confirm b321 or 112124 because those are easy hitconfirmable. That's why making hat punishable will castrate the character.
 
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Goat-City

Banned
how's escaping from a stagger a "ridiculously hard to make read?" 11212 it's easy to spot, it's -3, you can poke out, 11 is +1 high, but there are multiple ways around that, throw in the corner is not a 50/50 99% of the time, cause unless you are GM sub i'll probably thorw you forward, tho you probably better duck it and punish it instead of teching it... both 11 and 11212 staggers are reactable, and i dont have the advantage against most of the cast, considering the speed of my normals. Ex hat "pressure" has only a d4 has a frame trap (and thank god i have a guaranteed d4 so i can use a damn mindgame without having a 50/50), everything else he does it's armorable / pokable.

after ex hat i have to read what you gonna do, just like you have to read my staggers, if not reacting to them, wich is possible. And that's Tempest rushdown.

it's completely fair in a FG to make reads, react to stuff, having mindgames to work with. it's not braindead conditioning people to do stuff, cause I'm earning it by making micro decisions wich would affect YOUR reads.

on the other hand, 1 bar block breakers it's a BRAINDEAD ass request, cause not only it would completely destroy Tempest rushdown, but would make block pressure even less effective for the rest of the cast.

sounds like you wanna have it simple, instead of learning your way outs and work on MUs.
11 is not reactable, if it was you wouldn't constantly see people not reacting to it. You cannot see that your opponent has chosen to do 11 instead of 11212 within 1 frame, or 2 frames, or 3 frames, or 4 frames, so it might as well be plus 3 or 4 because by the time you react to it the Kung Lao player would have already inputted standing 1 or d4 or b3 or forward 2 several frames ago. 11 is a complete read. As for 11212, you still can't react to that within 3 frames. That's a read as well, at best you'd be able to react in 5 frames maybe but Kung is plus 2 at that point, not to mention the fact that there's always EX spin to fear or jump back dive kick, or he could simply block. The point is that the Kung Lao player is not at nearly as much risk as his opponent, meanwhile he's gaining a huge reward. The entire thing is complete guess and any wrong guess leads to 30% or more into an armor breaking setup into the same unbalanced guessing game.

If it wasn't so easy for the Kung player to get the opponent in his BS guessing game, then it'd be fair, but his combos all do excellent corner carry with good damage on top of that and there's no wakeup option because of orbital hat, so every combo Kung Lao lands he not only does great damage into great corner carry, but his opponent also loses his wakeup option and gets put in a completely unreactable guessing game that's in the Kung Lao player's favor that leads to potentially huge chip and meter gain for the Kung player or more 30% combos into the same setup if the opponent guesses wrong. Even if all of Tempest's strings were minus 6 except standing 1 he'd still be an A+ completely viable character.

He gets Grandmaster Sub Zero level corner carry into a hard knockdown into an armor breaking setup into an equally beneficial corner game but he doesn't sacrifice any of his midscreen damage to get it like Sub Zero does and Sub Zero doesn't get a free hard knockdown unless his opponent is already in the corner, yet GM Sub Zero still needs a damage nerf and so does Tempest Lao. The only way to make Tempest fair is to at least give him a 4-6% (probably just 4%) damage nerf and preferably to give the opponent a fair way out. They could also remove armor from EX spin but I wouldn't like that as much because it still leaves us with bad gameplay that is unfavorable guessing games. Guaranteed unfavorable guessing games are not only unfair but it's bad gameplay. If the risk reward was balanced or only slightly in the Tempest player's favor like most character's corner pressure games then it wouldn't be so bad, still poor gameplay but at least it's fair.

Tell me HOW ON EARTH being able to block break for 1 bar is any more braindead than trying to guess out of Tempest Lao's pressure. There are way too many options on the Tempest player's side to make brain power a significant aspect of getting out of his corner pressure. You guess when to poke, guess when to armor if you can, and if you guess wrong on all of his options that all lead to 30% or more into a hard knockdown, the match might as well be over, all because you ate a combo from midscreen that put you right in the corner into the setup. You can be the smartest guy in the world, but you can't see the future. Like I said, if you guess wrong it's another 30% combo into the same setup, if you don't guess you get chipped out while the Tempest player builds multiple bars of meter, and if you guess right with a poke you're still in the corner in the guessing game.

You telling me it's fair in fighting games to make reads as if I'm saying otherwise tells me how clueless you are. That's like saying it's fair to do big damage combos in fighting games. That's true, but what if 1 character does 30% and another does 50%? Tempest Lao's corner game is TOO strong, and it cannot be made any weaker so the best, most logical way to balance it is to give the opponent a way out for a reasonable price. It does not destroy Kung Lao's pressure game at all because it still costs a bar of meter, that's common sense. Tempest's strength becomes forcing his opponent to waste a bar just to get out of his bull shit, rather than him getting the bull shit for free. It still benefits Tempest for his opponent to lose a bar. He would still have to take a damage nerf on top of this because the Lao player gets 1 bar block breakers too, and he gains more meter than most characters so it would partially help him as well. If they just give him the damage nerf but don't make block breakers 1 bar, they could still possibly balance him but it wouldn't change how shitty his guessing based gameplay is. 1 bar block breakers would make MKX a much better game, I can only hope Paulo will see that.
 
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IrishMantis

Most humble shit talker ever!!!
I'm worried about them over beefing him

Make Hatspin -5
And slightly longer cool down when hat times out or eats projectiles and that should do it
 

WiseM0nkey

welcome to the ButtSlam
11 is not reactable, if it was you wouldn't constantly see people not reacting to it. You cannot see that your opponent has chosen to do 11 instead of 11212 within 1 frame, or 2 frames, or 3 frames, or 4 frames, so it might as well be plus 3 or 4 because by the time you react to it the Kung Lao player would have already inputted standing 1 or d4 or b3 or forward 2 several frames ago. 11 is a complete read. As for 11212, you still can't react to that within 3 frames. That's a read as well, at best you'd be able to react in 5 frames maybe but Kung is plus 2 at that point, not to mention the fact that there's always EX spin to fear or jump back dive kick, or he could simply block. The point is that the Kung Lao player is not at nearly as much risk as his opponent, meanwhile he's gaining a huge reward. The entire thing is complete guess and any wrong guess leads to 30% or more into an armor breaking setup into the same unbalanced guessing game.

If it wasn't so easy for the Kung player to get the opponent in his BS guessing game, then it'd be fair, but his combos all do excellent corner carry with good damage on top of that and there's no wakeup option because of orbital hat, so every combo Kung Lao lands he not only does great damage into great corner carry, but his opponent also loses his wakeup option and gets put in a completely unreactable guessing game that's in the Kung Lao player's favor that leads to potentially huge chip and meter gain for the Kung player or more 30% combos into the same setup if the opponent guesses wrong. Even if all of Tempest's strings were minus 6 except standing 1 he'd still be an A+ completely viable character.

He gets Grandmaster Sub Zero level corner carry into a hard knockdown into an armor breaking setup into an equally beneficial corner game but he doesn't sacrifice any of his midscreen damage to get it like Sub Zero does and Sub Zero doesn't get a free hard knockdown unless his opponent is already in the corner, yet GM Sub Zero still needs a damage nerf and so does Tempest Lao. The only way to make Tempest fair is to at least give him a 4-6% (probably just 4%) damage nerf and preferably to give the opponent a fair way out. They could also remove armor from EX spin but I wouldn't like that as much because it still leaves us with bad gameplay that is unfavorable guessing games. Guaranteed unfavorable guessing games are not only unfair but it's bad gameplay. If the risk reward was balanced or only slightly in the Tempest player's favor like most character's corner pressure games then it wouldn't be so bad, still poor gameplay but at least it's fair.

Tell me HOW ON EARTH being able to block break for 1 bar is any more braindead than trying to guess out of Tempest Lao's pressure. There are way too many options on the Tempest player's side to make brain power a significant aspect of getting out of his corner pressure. You guess when to poke, guess when to armor if you can, and if you guess wrong on all of his options that all lead to 30% or more into a hard knockdown, the match might as well be over, all because you ate a combo from midscreen that put you right in the corner into the setup. You can be the smartest guy in the world, but you can't see the future. Like I said, if you guess wrong it's another 30% combo into the same setup, if you don't guess you get chipped out while the Tempest player builds multiple bars of meter, and if you guess right with a poke you're still in the corner in the guessing game.

You telling me it's fair in fighting games to make reads as if I'm saying otherwise tells me how clueless you are. That's like saying it's fair to do big damage combos in fighting games. That's true, but what if 1 character does 30% and another does 50%? Tempest Lao's corner game is TOO strong, and it cannot be made any weaker so the best, most logical way to balance it is to give the opponent a way out for a reasonable price. It does not destroy Kung Lao's pressure game at all because it still costs a bar of meter, that's common sense. Tempest's strength becomes forcing his opponent to waste a bar just to get out of his bull shit, rather than him getting the bull shit for free. It still benefits Tempest for his opponent to lose a bar. He would still have to take a damage nerf on top of this because the Lao player gets 1 bar block breakers too, and he gains more meter than most characters so it would partially help him as well. If they just give him the damage nerf but don't make block breakers 1 bar, they could still possibly balance him but it wouldn't change how shitty his guessing based gameplay is. 1 bar block breakers would make MKX a much better game, I can only hope Paulo will see that.
aight, remove armor from ex spin, I'm done
 

God Confirm

We're all from Earthrealm. If not, cool pic brah.
My fights agaisnt him seems preett fair. Kung Lao is prone to getting uppercutted far to many times for jumping and teleporting. Plus Kano has fast knives, we don't care about that silly hat.
This^^^. Let's see...Kano, Kotal, Lui, Quan, Kenshi, Reptile and Mileena can easily uppercut Lao without thinking. His J2 loses to so many characters J1, I don't even bother with it. Also, a lot of standing 1's can disrupt a J2.
You know you guys have maybe the fastest run speed in the game, you dont need to mindlessly jump all game