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How to Read, Understand and Calculate Frame Data in MKX

cyke_out

Noob
The Cancel frame data means what frame on the entire move the same one can cancel into another .... in the thread example, the move has a total of 29 frames, however, it's cancellable only from the 20th frame until the end of the move (means move has 29 frames, and from frame 20-29 you can cancel it) .... in FG frame analysis, you have frame advantage on hit, frame advantage on block, and frame cancel data that show from what "frame range" the move can be canceled to/into another one.
So some moves with a smaller cancel advantage will have a smaller and later window to 2-in-1 cancel into a special move as opposed to a move with a larger cancel advantage?

Is that right? The more cancel advantage, the easier it will be to cancel into something else.
 

jordan ewell

BlakBoywonder
I've read through the thread and didn't see if any mentioned this. In some fighters the last start up frame and first active frame are actually the same frame or overlap making a 6 frame move actually start up in 5 frames. Does this hold true for mkx? Sorry if this question was already answered elsewhere.
 

jordan ewell

BlakBoywonder
I've read through the thread and didn't see if any mentioned this. In some fighters the last start up frame and first active frame are actually the same frame or overlap making a 6 frame move actually start up in 5 frames. Does this hold true for mkx? Sorry if this question was already answered elsewhere.
I'm asking a question by the way not answering one. In case I didn't make it clear lol. Don't want to accidentally misinform anyone
 

Justice

Noob
ive never invested in learning frame data, but i think i will for this game, great post! i just have one question though, you use the word "fade" a few times... is that the correct word to use? i mean active frames dont fade do they? they end and then recovery frames begin? or am i misunderstanding? or are there instances of them overlapping?
There are times where they "bleed" Into each other. For example, connecting with a universal Uppercut (d2) that has say 30 frames of recovery (random number, don't flame) BUT because your opponent is airborne for say 28 frames, you are effectively safe and setting up a Neutral situation because the amount of time neither of you can act is almost identical.

Now if that same Uppercut is blocked, you do inflict Block Stun (let's say 5 frames). So you have 30f of Recovery minus 5f of Block Stun which leaves you with 25f where you cannot do anything but your opponent can do whatever he likes freely within those 25 frames.
 

rafaw

#YouSuck
So -6 or -5 on block is safe? If opponent uses fastest normal possible.
-5 is safe, fastest normal has 5f of startup so its first active frame is 6, -6 on block will leave a 1f gap to punish, tight but possible i guess!
 

Barrogh

Meta saltmine
-5 is safe, fastest normal has 5f of startup so its first active frame is 6, -6 on block will leave a 1f gap to punish, tight but possible i guess!
What about additional frame to come out of block unless you use reversal though?
 

Gesture Required Ahead

Get on that hook
Another note you may want to look into (though this may be unnecessarily complex for a tutorial)

Sometimes recovery frames overlap with active frames. This seems to change from game to game, not sure if it's in MKX or not. But it presents the situations in which a move is a bit "more safe" if it makes contact with the opponent near the end of it's active frames.
Thing is, the move retains its properties, it's just that the blockstun it creates is within the later parts of its active frames so it has more time to recover while the blockstun is in effect making it safer

EDIT: It's like throwing a meaty fireball, you still recover during the same amount of time, and the fireball still causes the same amount of blockstun. It's just that you recovered before the fireballs's blockstun takes effect.
 

Barrogh

Meta saltmine
That's why I asked it. Was a bit confusing for me if it's -5 or -6.
Well...
If startup in NRS frame data is indeed just startup and not Somberness brand "execution" (as in: number of the first active frame), then it should be like this:

In order to be punishable, move must have enough excessive recovery to fit:
1) one frame of "coming out of block" unless reversal is used for punishing;
2) entire startup;
3) first active frame.

That means 5f move can only punish -7 move if that 5f move is a normal or -6 move if it is 5f reversal.

If "5f startup" is actually a number of the first active frame like it was in Somberness' frame data, then 5f normal should be able to punish -6 move. But it would be super strange to include first active frame into both "startup" and "active" fields. Kinda throws duration calculations off, if only by a frame and it's not super logical thing to do IMHO.

P.S. And if it's actually just startup, then 5f normal in MKX is the equivalent of Sektor's jab speed wise.
 
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Matix218

Get over here!
-5 is safe, fastest normal has 5f of startup so its first active frame is 6, -6 on block will leave a 1f gap to punish, tight but possible i guess!
According to Tom Bradys thread yesterday you can actually block on the last minus frame and also it takes 1 frame to get out of block and initiate a normal move. It doesn't take that 1 frame to do a reversal special or throw however. So if you are punishing with a 5 frame normal in mkx the move you are punishing would have to be -7 on block (because they can block on the last negative frame and it will take you a frame to come out of block and initiate the normal move).

If you were punishing with a 5 frame reversal special you don't lose that block recovery frame but they can still block on the last negative frame so could in that case punish a move that is -6.

That is my understanding based on what Tom posted yesterday.

@Tom Brady can confirm
 

Barrogh

Meta saltmine
Woah, I didn't know that.
I guess we need to know if "startup" in NRS frame data actually mean just startup or startup + 1 active frame then. Knowing how edge cases behave we can actually read frame data after.
 
So, what is generally safe/unsafe in this game?

Im seeing characters with 6, 7, 8, and 9 frames as their fastest punishing normal, so its kinda hard for me to guage whether my character is in the clear or not in alot of matches.
 

Barrogh

Meta saltmine
So, what is generally safe/unsafe in this game?

Im seeing characters with 6, 7, 8, and 9 frames as their fastest punishing normal, so its kinda hard for me to guage whether my character is in the clear or not in alot of matches.
It's getting more clear now, but I think we should wait until all edge cases are resolved.
 

Matix218

Get over here!
So, what is generally safe/unsafe in this game?

Im seeing characters with 6, 7, 8, and 9 frames as their fastest punishing normal, so its kinda hard for me to guage whether my character is in the clear or not in alot of matches.
I guess it really depends on if you are punishing with a normal or a reversal special/throw. It also depends on other variables such as range and pushback etc. So I guess it just depends on the move and on your opponents punishment options.
 
This is excellent, thank you very much for writing all this! I must admit, some of the use of words/wording was a little inconsistent but I'm sure I'll figure it out when I try to understand it all myself. :)
 
so here's where I get confused - Quan Chi (SUM) has a string f2122, which i like to pressure with f212 and can hit confirm the last stand 2 in the string that launches, great

what I want to know, is the f212 a true block string

in particular, after the f21, quan has -7 block advantage with 15 cancel frames... putting him +8 for the coming part of the string

the next part of the string (the 2 in f21[2]) has a startup of 23... so i'm assuming the idea is that this is NOT a true bock string - because there should be a 15 frame window where the opponent can do something (23 startup of next move - 8 frames of block stun from the previous)

BUT i can't seem to get anyone to punish with anything in those 15 frames... there are a lot of armor moves and just quick moves that should be able to fit in with those 15 frames, right? i've tried putting 6 frame normals, i've tried cassie's backflip which is a 5 frame reversal

i should add that the move lunges Quan forward, too... like it even looks like it takes awhile to get that move out...

am i missing something? is there a better way to see if someone can armor through something?
 

Matix218

Get over here!
so here's where I get confused - Quan Chi (SUM) has a string f2122, which i like to pressure with f212 and can hit confirm the last stand 2 in the string that launches, great

what I want to know, is the f212 a true block string

in particular, after the f21, quan has -7 block advantage with 15 cancel frames... putting him +8 for the coming part of the string

the next part of the string (the 2 in f21[2]) has a startup of 23... so i'm assuming the idea is that this is NOT a true bock string - because there should be a 15 frame window where the opponent can do something (23 startup of next move - 8 frames of block stun from the previous)

BUT i can't seem to get anyone to punish with anything in those 15 frames... there are a lot of armor moves and just quick moves that should be able to fit in with those 15 frames, right? i've tried putting 6 frame normals, i've tried cassie's backflip which is a 5 frame reversal

i should add that the move lunges Quan forward, too... like it even looks like it takes awhile to get that move out...

am i missing something? is there a better way to see if someone can armor through something?
I believe cancel advantage does not apply to the remaining normals in actual block strings. Only applies when you cancel into a special move. Or at least that was my understanding
 

The Slaj Jazz

I'm salty
So, if Jacqui's standing 1 comes out in 6 frames does that mean her string that starts with that will also start at 6 frames? I'm confused :(
 
oh oh thank you matrix218 - that makes more sense - im sitting here thinking that i have to test all my block strings to make sure they cant punish in between the string itself
 

Desperdicio

Tell me, do you bleed?
oh oh thank you matrix218 - that makes more sense - im sitting here thinking that i have to test all my block strings to make sure they cant punish in between the string itself
Actually, you can interrupt a string in the middle, even when you don't cancel into a special. There were many strings with gaps in the middle in MK9. Maybe the data is wrong for the one you're talking about. I am still waiting for my console and game to arrive. If I get them, I'll test that for you.
 

Barrogh

Meta saltmine
I believe cancel advantage does not apply to the remaining normals in actual block strings. Only applies when you cancel into a special move. Or at least that was my understanding
I actually think that cancel applies. I'm not sure if there is startup data on midstring normals though. Although I didn't pay attention if there's a difference between numbers in startup fields of finished and unfinished strings...
 

Myokymia

Noob
The cancel equation is wrong. I'm almost certain the cancel number is which frame you finish the attack if you cancel. I've done some testing, but would be glad for others to verify my theory.

I give you guys a an example I found though I haven't done much testing I can say just cancel plus advantage is incorrect if I'm not missing something about that equation.

Sub-zero's 1,1 can link into his ice ball (30f frame start-up)
Sub-zero's second hit of his 1,1 has (info necessary for equation)
startup:9 Active:2 Recover:31
BAdv:-4 HAdv:7 Cancel:16

According to what I believe is the equation here the special would need to be < 23 frames to use, but It does work. The equation I came up with isn't as simple (still just arithmetic) but here it is

9+2+31=42=total frames
cancel at frame 16, so find the difference
42-16=26=gained advantage
7+26=33=new hit advantage
33>30 so the ice ball hits, but the overhead hammer(35f) won't.

Tell me what you guys think try to test it yourself's too. I might try and find more examples.

If I am correct it would mean that a lower cancel number is more likely to hit with a special; as it stands most believe the opposite. It's of course related to recover a lot and advantage.