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How to Read, Understand and Calculate Frame Data in MKX

Belial

Noob
Question isn't if trade hits are in the game but how frame advantage work in regards to normals come out slower by 1 frame. there is no sensible explanation of this game mechanic so far. For example if it is about "unblocking takes extra frame unless it's a reversal" then we assume that on hit specials and normals come out at the same speed. Also we can assume (and test) if attacker has extra advantage over defender bc the defender has to "unblock" etc. However if the rule is different for example tied to recovery of moves, not to blockstun, then it works in all situations for both players.
 
There is no issue anymore, because "input frame" or frame zero for normals (the first frame out of blockstun when the game will accept the input for the normals, since you cannot buffer normals while in blockstun) is now counted in the startup. The move cannot really start in that frame since the game is taking input. The move will start next frame. But since it is now counted in, for any practical purpose it is as if this whole issue did not exist. Just straight math, 10f move at -5 will trade with 5f move at +5. Special or normal. Just adding the numbers
 
No because startup gives you the number of inactive frames, and not the first active frame. So you can punish with minus 1f moves. 8f to punish -9. A 8f move will actually impact at the 9th frame, 8 inactive frames + the first active frame. You get same numbers (like 6 for -6) only when frame data indicates the first active frame.
 

Belial

Noob
No because startup gives you the number of inactive frames, and not the first active frame. So you can punish with minus 1f moves. 8f to punish -9. A 8f move will actually impact at the 9th frame, 8 inactive frames + the first active frame. You get same numbers (like 6 for -6) only when frame data indicates the first active frame.
And then my question stands. How does FRAME ADVANTAGE work in regards to that? What if I block -5 and use i10 normal, will it come out slower by 1 frame compared to i10 special move? What about my opponent using i5 normal, will he also suffer the "-1 frame"? What about same situation but on hit, not block. Does it also apply "-1 frame" rule?
 
-1 frame rule just for punishing. Otherwise just adding numbers (for normal or special alike): if you are blocked and are at -5, your 5f poke will trade with a 10f move of your opponent. Either you add the disadvantage to the frame of your move in your head (your 5f becomes 10f), or you subtract the disadvantage from the frames of your opponent (10f becomes like 5f).
 

Ashesfall

"Feel the wrath of Shao Kahn"
me as a tekken player has an issue right now
i have a problem with any jumping(uf) 1or2 into any string (1.. series)
so i go into practice to deal with it
(goros) jumping 1 is -9 on block and his 1 is 10f
so as a tekken player, i think i have a 19f window (-1f on normals in mkx) to interrupt this setup but no not in mkx and this is where i dont understand whats going on here.
i cant even duck am i in a blockstun?

so where is my mistake here to understand this?
 
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kencheese

sub zero cryomancer
If you're new into the world of advancing gaming, this might be a good way to start, also if everyone is to start fresh in MKX with no hidden or unfair advantage, this is something that everyone should know so they can know what to look for when they get their hands in the game.

Be wary that frame data is not 100% correct at this point in the game, but that doesn't mean that the principle will not apply after the day 1 patch, on the contrary it will, more so when the data get corrected.

Of course top players will take a huge advantage over this, but will help new guys to understand what's going on before start crying to nerf something.

Without further delays, MKX runs at 60 frames per second, meaning that at ever 1 second in real time, 60 frames will run in the game.

State 0, or Neutral state = Its a technical term in M.U.G.E.N or fighting games to define all stances from a fighting game, during the state 0 the character is free from any draw backs, it means the Player has the control over the character at that exact moment and he can block, attack move at any moment. So when the fight word fades, both characters starts at State 0.


This is what you will see on the frame data screen:


The MKX only gives you 6 options of Frame Data statistics so before i go any further into this i will explain first what each one of this statistic means, then i will explain something else that MK9 veterans might have noticed at this point.

Start-Up: Means the time (in frames), the first active frame from an executed move (in other words the time it takes for the opponent to get hit by your normal, or special move instants after your press the button) takes to activate.
  • In MKX, the fastest normals are 5 frames startup, not 6 like in MK9
Active: It means the time that move will remain active until it fades or hits anything that can be hit by it. (in other words, by this time you can't touch that move until the active frames fades, but armored moves will still beat regular active frames)
  • In MKX normals remain active from 1 to 13 depending of how powerfull they are, generally normals with longer active frames are also really unsafe on block or whiff.
Recover: Its the time a normal special, even throws will take to return to the state 0, also known as the stance mode, so for this period of time that a move is recovering from being used, the one recovering can't block, or cancel it.
  • In MKX moves on whiff have a good chunk of recovery frames, be aware of what you put in the screen.
Block advantage: Block advantage defines the time the defender has to stay on a blockstun, block advantage goes two ways, it can either be positive (+) which is advantage for the attacker, or it can be negative (-) which means advantage to the defender.
  • So if P1 string is -10 on block, it means that P1 is vulnerable for 10 frames at the instant his blockstun fades away, in this period of time P2 can input a 9f moves or lower to catch P1 before he has time to recover from this attack. This action is called Punish.
  • In MKX, there is a new propriety that allows any character to block on the last negative frame, so startup attacking frames that matches the same number of blockstun won't punish it, so 10f moves won't punish -10f of disadvantage.
Hit Advantage: It the time P2 will take to return to the state 0 after getting hit.
Cancel: Its the advantage given to the attacker when he cancels his move with another move.

Now that we got all this out of the way let me explain this into a more deeper way.

Some of you may or not have noticed that MKX doesn't offer Cancel advantage on Hit and Cancel advantage on block, but those are crucial if you want to understand the frametraps and links your opponent can or cannot do to you, that its not weird, it means that now you have to do some equations to find out cancel on hit and cancel on block.

So how do you do that?



Cancel advantage is one of the most important datas in the game, it can tell you if P1 strings is indeed a blockstring or just a frame trap.

So what is a blockstring?
Blockstring is when a move canceled into another move doesn't leave any gap between the cancel and startup frames, forcing you to block the whole thing during the process.

How to find out if my opponent is doing a blockstring on me?

In MKX almost all strings and normals can be canceled, and there are some that can't be canceled, lets look at the new Scorpion gravedigger (1,2,3) dial string:



It used to be a 2 hits string (2, 1+2), now its a 3 hits string in MKX:
Each one of part of this string has startup, active frames, recovery, block adv, hit adv and cancel adv. You want to find out if there is a gap on this string or if its a true blockstring, this is how you do it:

Cancel + block adv = blockstun.

Now you get that blockstun and compare if the startup frames of the next attack in line reaches before, on time or after the blockstun fades

So standing 1 is 8f startup, on block is 0 frames, and canceling is 11frames.
0- 11 = 11f blockstun

1
, 2 (the next attack in line) is 6 frames startup, meaning that it reaches the opponent before the blockstun of cancel advantage fades so 1, 2 is a true blockstring, and has a cancel advantage of 16 frames and a block adv of -10 frames.
16-10 = 6f blockstun

1, 2, 3 (the final attack in line) is 8 frames meaning that it will not connect the opponent before the blockstun fades, so gravedigger (1, 2, 3) its not a true blockstring there is at least a 2 frame gaps where you can armor trough the last part of the string and expose scorpion for not know knowing this, making him less reckless and actually check your meter before doing that string again.

The same principle can be applied into normals or strings canceled into specials or run cancels, if you know how long it takes to start and cancel a run, or special, and their next attack in line, you will be able to determinate the blockstun find the gap and defend yourself accordingly.

Start MKX big, like an educated player.
 

kencheese

sub zero cryomancer
hi eddy, need your help, i play kenshi balanced, i completely agree with you calculation for block stun and seeing if a normal move : kombo attack is a block string based on breaking the move down into a series of individual attacks, my question is, using kenshi as a example and all frame date seen is off the mkx disc, if i use the kombo OO and then cancel it into rising karma do i TREAT the kombo like you did grave digger a two seperate ( first button is O blockstun of 18 a start up of 11, now compare it to the second button in the attack again O with a block stun of 18 and a start up of 11, 11<18 and now to rising karma, the third attack button with a start up of 17, 17<18, and this method no frame gaps= a true block string) or do i compare the entire kombo attack OO whose block stun (23 plus -14) 9 to rising karma start up of 17 and this is not a block string 17>9, which method is correct for a kombo into a special move thanks scott r
 

MadeOfMetal

Kenshi Srubtastic,Cyrax, Special Forces Mains
Yep most helpful. Liked alot.

The only thing that is still puzzling me is skipping FP, BP, FK, LK over 1, 2, 3, 4 which can be configured differently on pads. I never know if by 4 someone means LK or something else.
here ill help ya with that with a picture:


i made this in Gimp for you to help you understand.

PS4
square=1
triangle=2
X=3
O=4

XBox One

X=1
Y=2
A=3
B=4
 
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kencheese

sub zero cryomancer
let me verify OO is kenshi move 4,4 iam just use to seeing the attack buttons SQUARE, TRIANGLE, X AND CIRCLE in other words 1=square 2=triangle 3=x and 4=o
 

MadeOfMetal

Kenshi Srubtastic,Cyrax, Special Forces Mains
@Eddy Wang thank you so much for taking the time to put this on tym, i know im a little late to the party on this one. but i feel that i have to say very well done!
 
@kencheese
The disadvantage on jumping in attacks apply only when you do them early and very high in the air. In that situation you can interrupt. But when you do them late and low in the air, you benefit of landing cancel, that is the animation is canceled by the fact that you land and this put you at advantage so for exemple jin1 and then 111 will block string.
You have to judge when the jumping is interruptible and when not, but it is very risky because if you guess wrong it is full combo
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
hi eddy, need your help, i play kenshi balanced, i completely agree with you calculation for block stun and seeing if a normal move : kombo attack is a block string based on breaking the move down into a series of individual attacks, my question is, using kenshi as a example and all frame date seen is off the mkx disc, if i use the kombo OO and then cancel it into rising karma do i TREAT the kombo like you did grave digger a two seperate ( first button is O blockstun of 18 a start up of 11, now compare it to the second button in the attack again O with a block stun of 18 and a start up of 11, 11<18 and now to rising karma, the third attack button with a start up of 17, 17<18, and this method no frame gaps= a true block string) or do i compare the entire kombo attack OO whose block stun (23 plus -14) 9 to rising karma start up of 17 and this is not a block string 17>9, which method is correct for a kombo into a special move thanks scott r
If you're trying to figure it out, the best way of doing this without calculations is by using a very cool feature that the game offers:

Set the AI to custom, Always blocking and set to reversal with Dash Backwards.
Any string you do that can be backdashed in between hits while they're blocking its not a true blockstring, there for it can be interrupted by armor as well.
Same thing applies to strings canceled into special attacks, if the AI backdashes the special, it means its not a true blockstring.
 

MadeOfMetal

Kenshi Srubtastic,Cyrax, Special Forces Mains
@kencheese
The disadvantage on jumping in attacks apply only when you do them early and very high in the air. In that situation you can interrupt. But when you do them late and low in the air, you benefit of landing cancel, that is the animation is canceled by the fact that you land and this put you at advantage so for exemple jin1 and then 111 will block string.
You have to judge when the jumping is interruptible and when not, but it is very risky because if you guess wrong it is full combo
i have noticed some caracters startup frames on their JIP 1 and 2 are different. so it might be advisable to look through frame data in menu to determine if your character benifits from 1 or 2 better off different ranges and placment jumps:

example: jumping in from mid/jumping in from close/jumping over them

1: may have a 2 frame startup and 2: may have a 5 frame startup,

maybe it may be easier to connect with 1 from where you normally press your button in air.


also apply the above quote
 

MadeOfMetal

Kenshi Srubtastic,Cyrax, Special Forces Mains
If you're trying to figure it out, the best way of doing this without calculations is by using a very cool feature that the game offers:

Set the AI to custom, Always blocking and set to reversal with Dash Backwards.
Any string you do that can be backdashed in between hits while they're blocking its not a true blockstring, there for it can be interrupted by armor as well.
Same thing applies to strings canceled into special attacks, if the AI backdashes the special, it means its not a true blockstring.
i have personally found that combos that i thought where solid were not so solid after using this practice method...

sometimes i have them set to reversal special. i try to use the fastest ones then, ill find that they are able to wiff the 2nd or last hit of the string and punish in between.
 

kencheese

sub zero cryomancer
thanks eddy, i did exactly what you advised, AI, block always and back dash for reversal, here are the results, lets say i hit the opponent with 4,4,1 basic kombo, the opponent of course blocked the 4,4,1 and after the full attack was fully completed the opponent stopped blocking and dashed backwards(please note 4 and 4 and 1 all connected, then the opponent came out of block), so how do you interpret this, is 4,4,1 a block string? since each attack button connected or it is not a block string, please note all attack buttons(4,4 and 1) connected prior to the dash back, i would say if only 4 or 4,4 connected and then the opponent came out of block(not fully completeing the kombo) and then dashed, the kombo 4,4,1 would not be a block string, but the opponent blocked the full attack so i say a true block string, what do you think. then when i did 4,4,1 cancel into db1(rising karma, a special move) the opponent had to fully block the 4,4,1 and stopped blocking during the db1 attack so the db1 did not fully complete, and the opponent dashed(counter attack=punish) so i say 4,4,1 db1 is not a true block string thank you scott r, please give me your opinion
 

Desperdicio

Tell me, do you bleed?
Is the block advantage of a special move the same naked as at the end of a string? Or is there a formula to calculate that too?
 

kencheese

sub zero cryomancer
thanks eddy, i did exactly what you advised, AI, block always and back dash for reversal, here are the results, lets say i hit the opponent with 4,4,1 basic kombo, the opponent of course blocked the 4,4,1 and after the full attack was fully completed the opponent stopped blocking and dashed backwards(please note 4 and 4 and 1 all connected, then the opponent came out of block), so how do you interpret this, is 4,4,1 a block string? since each attack button connected or it is not a block string, please note all attack buttons(4,4 and 1) connected prior to the dash back, i would say if only 4 or 4,4 connected and then the opponent came out of block(not fully completeing the kombo) and then dashed, the kombo 4,4,1 would not be a block string, but the opponent blocked the full attack so i say a true block string, what do you think. then when i did 4,4,1 cancel into db1(rising karma, a special move) the opponent had to fully block the 4,4,1 and stopped blocking during the db1 attack so the db1 did not fully complete, and the opponent dashed(counter attack=punish) so i say 4,4,1 db1 is not a true block string thank you scott r, please give me your opinion
 

kencheese

sub zero cryomancer
hi you wrote this
Is the block advantage of a special move the same naked as at the end of a string? Or is there a formula to calculate that too? i am not sure what you mean what does the sme naked mean? i think it is a typo scott r
 

kencheese

sub zero cryomancer
Is the block advantage of a special move the same naked as at the end of a string? Or is there a formula to calculate that too? i think there is a typo what is the same naked? let me know to clarify
 

kencheese

sub zero cryomancer
iam going to check that out, i am not sure the AI on always block and back dash is correct, i have done all basic moves all kombo and all special and lots of special move kombos (any normal move=basic or kombo with a special move) and all of them so far have back dashed, so iam not sure this is right a a proper test to check for a block string(no frame gaps of the special move kombo start up to the normal moves block stun(cancel adv + cancel adv)
 

Desperdicio

Tell me, do you bleed?
hi you wrote this
Is the block advantage of a special move the same naked as at the end of a string? Or is there a formula to calculate that too? i am not sure what you mean what does the sme naked mean? i think it is a typo scott r
I mean, if Erron Black's Sand Slide, which is -25 on block, is still -25 when you're cancelling 21122 into it, for instance, or if there's a formula to calculate that too.

Also, guys, what is the formula for cancel advantage on hit and on block, after all? I got confused between the ones who said you have to add everything, and the OP.