Question How Close Is Smoke To Cyrax?

[Matix218]

Great post.

Smoke was ultimately a severely down played character who was down played by all Smoke players who were bad players who never won anything.

Tommy won final round

 

[Flagg]

All I know is don't block low cause Smoke has an overhead that would make Sonic the Hedgehog shit himself.

 

[Dizzy]

If you consider "just behind" Cyrax being #6-10 on the tier list while cyrax is #3-4 then just about everyone agrees with you.

That said, Cyrax gameplay was way more straight forward, easier to execute, and generally had more reward for less risk. Not being able to meter drain and less unbreakable situations mattered a lot too. The cyrax breaker trap cannot be downplayed and outclassed smoke completely in unbreakable damage.

That said, I still am greatly upset that no smoke players ever implemented d1xxsmoke away as a counter poke. It is insane. Immune to any counter poke attempts, creates distance, and puts you in the perfect spot to AA a forward jump. In matches where you want to run away, it would be invaluable. I tried many times to encourage wafflez to implement it, and he never listened. I really feel that it could make the match against Cage 5-5 when used appropriately, and would be a totally free escape when blocking something at neutral on block, barring an absurd read such as a random ex nut punch after having a F3 blocked.

 

[GGA Jeremiah]

I tried many times to encourage wafflez to implement it, and he never listened.

Hew, hew, naw dude. Too much work bro.

 

[Rip Torn]

The cyrax breaker trap cannot be downplayed and outclassed smoke completely in unbreakable damage.

I think when Han found that unbreakable/breaker trap stuff is when Cyrax actually became top 3. He was great before that, but after that tech was released he became a real meta-breaker.

On a side note, I still think you can react to command grab if you watch his feet. And you don't need to guess between forward or back to break it like regular throws.

 

[Matix218]

If you consider "just behind" Cyrax being #6-10 on the tier list while cyrax is #3-4 then just about everyone agrees with you.

That said, Cyrax gameplay was way more straight forward, easier to execute, and generally had more reward for less risk. Not being able to meter drain and less unbreakable situations mattered a lot too. The cyrax breaker trap cannot be downplayed and outclassed smoke completely in unbreakable damage.

That said, I still am greatly upset that no smoke players ever implemented d1xxsmoke away as a counter poke. It is insane. Immune to any counter poke attempts, creates distance, and puts you in the perfect spot to AA a forward jump. In matches where you want to run away, it would be invaluable. I tried many times to encourage wafflez to implement it, and he never listened. I really feel that it could make the match against Cage 5-5 when used appropriately, and would be a totally free escape when blocking something at neutral on block, barring an absurd read such as a random ex nut punch after having a F3 blocked.

I tried to incorporate d1 and d3 smoke away into my game specifically for the cage matchup but it is extremely difficult to execute in the heat of cage pressure, I would always mess up the smoke away and get punished so I just decided to screw it. If I had been still going to tournaments I would have put more time into it though

 

[FrothyOmen]

Smoke's good. Cyrax is better. What more is there to talk about?

 

[Big Pampering]

Smoke does seem to have a better matchup chart though

 

[Big Pampering]

Also can we please not forget about people saying kl vs smoke is 7-3. GTFO with that. Smoke players need to stop pressing buttons all the time, which allows kung lao to blow them up and they need to accept the fact that they cant use d1 to consistently punish kung lao's teleport. They seriously never learn. Kung lao is not safe when he does his pressure against smoke. Every teleport kung lao does against smoke can be punished by smoke with capital punishment, I don't care how hard it is, the risk reward is actually not even in kung laos favor. After every string kung lao does on block, smoke can do d4 and the pressure is back to him. Yes kung lao can challenge you with the spin after a blocked string but the guessing game is not even in his favor, you guys do more than double the damage kung lao does, just accept the damn fact that KL will get in and stop smoke fading away while getting divekicked in the face every single time. Smoke players need to capatalise on their d4 to pressure kung lao. This matchups is 6-4 at worst.

 

[SZSR]

Also can we please not forget about people saying kl vs smoke is 7-3. GTFO with that. Smoke players need to stop pressing buttons all the time, which allows kung lao to blow them up and they need to accept the fact that they cant use d1 to consistently punish kung lao's teleport. They seriously never learn. Kung lao is not safe when he does his pressure against smoke. Every teleport kung lao does against smoke can be punished by smoke with capital punishment, I don't care how hard it is, the risk reward is actually not even in kung laos favor. After every string kung lao does on block, smoke can do d4 and the pressure is back to him. Yes kung lao can challenge you with the spin after a blocked string but the guessing game is not even in his favor, you guys do more than double the damage kung lao does, just accept the damn fact that KL will get in and stop smoke fading away while getting divekicked in the face every single time. Smoke players need to capatalise on their d4 to pressure kung lao. This matchups is 6-4 at worst.

http://testyourmight.com/threads/smoke-match-up-discussion-thread-2012-post-evo-update.25487/page-15#post-1174442

 

[GGA Wafflez]

uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

 

[Big Pampering]

http://testyourmight.com/threads/smoke-match-up-discussion-thread-2012-post-evo-update.25487/page-15#post-1174442

yes

 

[The_REAL_xVAPORx]

Also can we please not forget about people saying kl vs smoke is 7-3. GTFO with that. Smoke players need to stop pressing buttons all the time, which allows kung lao to blow them up and they need to accept the fact that they cant use d1 to consistently punish kung lao's teleport. They seriously never learn. Kung lao is not safe when he does his pressure against smoke. Every teleport kung lao does against smoke can be punished by smoke with capital punishment, I don't care how hard it is, the risk reward is actually not even in kung laos favor. After every string kung lao does on block, smoke can do d4 and the pressure is back to him. Yes kung lao can challenge you with the spin after a blocked string but the guessing game is not even in his favor, you guys do more than double the damage kung lao does, just accept the damn fact that KL will get in and stop smoke fading away while getting divekicked in the face every single time. Smoke players need to capatalise on their d4 to pressure kung lao. This matchups is 6-4 at worst.

i agree, the MU is definitely 6-4 (one of of the tougher 6-4s for sure though). while its true that every single teleport lao does can be punished, there isn't a universal punishment for every scenario. if lao delays his tele~3 or goes for tele~2, then a standing 2 is the best bet, anything else and its generally best to punish with a d1. the problem is if you guess wrong you could eat 40%, and poking out of lao pressure with a lot of d1s is really risky, but against a lao that's linking his pressure with d3s and d4~low hats, its kind of a must. but all things considered, I stopped complaining about this MU long ago. once the smoke understands the MU and can adjust to the laos playstyle, its not a scary MU.

 

[coolwhip]

Also can we please not forget about people saying kl vs smoke is 7-3. GTFO with that. Smoke players need to stop pressing buttons all the time, which allows kung lao to blow them up and they need to accept the fact that they cant use d1 to consistently punish kung lao's teleport. They seriously never learn. Kung lao is not safe when he does his pressure against smoke. Every teleport kung lao does against smoke can be punished by smoke with capital punishment, I don't care how hard it is, the risk reward is actually not even in kung laos favor. After every string kung lao does on block, smoke can do d4 and the pressure is back to him. Yes kung lao can challenge you with the spin after a blocked string but the guessing game is not even in his favor, you guys do more than double the damage kung lao does, just accept the damn fact that KL will get in and stop smoke fading away while getting divekicked in the face every single time. Smoke players need to capatalise on their d4 to pressure kung lao. This matchups is 6-4 at worst.

I agree about the match-up number but I'm not sure about Smoke poking out with D4 after a KL block-string. Kung Lao's D3 will beat Smoke's D4 so if you notice a Smoke player poking out with D4, you wouldn't even need to risk a spin anymore and you can just D3. Secondly, I think it's better for Smoke to try and poke out with D1 against Lao, since it could catch Kung Lao if he's trying to cross you over. A lot of Lao players will go for cross ups after a block string, or cross up tele shenanigans, especially against Smoke, and if you time the D1 right it will catch them jumping and you can convert into a combo. D4 might be a good idea to throw in occasionally, but I don't think it should be Smoke's go-to get off me move. Actually, Smoke's D4 would also be beaten by Lao's B3. I notice PL uses B33 often against Smoke in his pressure (provided it's right after a block string and you're still in Smoke's face since B3 has shit range otherwise).

 

[Phosferrax]

*Sigh* this what I hate about TYM. I make a very obvious statement, but because I don't spoonfeed the meaning, someone misunderstands it and worse, calls me dumb.

Every time...

 

[Braindead]

http://testyourmight.com/threads/smoke-match-up-discussion-thread-2012-post-evo-update.25487/page-15#post-1174442

This post is a proof of a great mod who knows all that is going on in his forums.

 

[Braindead]

If you consider "just behind" Cyrax being #6-10 on the tier list while cyrax is #3-4 then just about everyone agrees with you.

That said, Cyrax gameplay was way more straight forward, easier to execute, and generally had more reward for less risk. Not being able to meter drain and less unbreakable situations mattered a lot too. The cyrax breaker trap cannot be downplayed and outclassed smoke completely in unbreakable damage.

That said, I still am greatly upset that no smoke players ever implemented d1xxsmoke away as a counter poke. It is insane. Immune to any counter poke attempts, creates distance, and puts you in the perfect spot to AA a forward jump. In matches where you want to run away, it would be invaluable. I tried many times to encourage wafflez to implement it, and he never listened. I really feel that it could make the match against Cage 5-5 when used appropriately, and would be a totally free escape when blocking something at neutral on block, barring an absurd read such as a random ex nut punch after having a F3 blocked.

I believe Smoke players did use d3 xx smoke-away in the MU against Cage. I remember talking to @RiBBz22 and he said that you have to rely on d3 xx Smoke-Away a lot in the matchup, but the MU is still bad.

 

[Big Pampering]

I agree about the match-up number but I'm not sure about Smoke poking out with D4 after a KL block-string. Kung Lao's D3 will beat Smoke's D4 so if you notice a Smoke player poking out with D4, you wouldn't even need to risk a spin anymore and you can just D3. Secondly, I think it's better for Smoke to try and poke out with D1 against Lao, since it could catch Kung Lao if he's trying to cross you over. A lot of Lao players will go for cross ups after a block string, or cross up tele shenanigans, especially against Smoke, and if you time the D1 right it will catch them jumping and you can convert into a combo. D4 might be a good idea to throw in occasionally, but I don't think it should be Smoke's go-to get off me move. Actually, Smoke's D4 would also be beaten by Lao's B3. I notice PL uses B33 often against Smoke in his pressure (provided it's right after a block string and you're still in Smoke's face since B3 has shit range otherwise).

All pokes are useful yes. After a while though the kung lao player will know his pokes lose against smokes d1/d3 and start to respect you or challenge you with the spin. The smoke player has to make the kung lao player respect his d1/d3. This opens up his d4

edit: the thing is kl's pressure is all about respect and smoke definitely has the tools and damage to make kung lao respect him.

 

[RiBBz22]

If you consider "just behind" Cyrax being #6-10 on the tier list while cyrax is #3-4 then just about everyone agrees with you.

That said, Cyrax gameplay was way more straight forward, easier to execute, and generally had more reward for less risk. Not being able to meter drain and less unbreakable situations mattered a lot too. The cyrax breaker trap cannot be downplayed and outclassed smoke completely in unbreakable damage.

That said, I still am greatly upset that no smoke players ever implemented d1xxsmoke away as a counter poke. It is insane. Immune to any counter poke attempts, creates distance, and puts you in the perfect spot to AA a forward jump. In matches where you want to run away, it would be invaluable. I tried many times to encourage wafflez to implement it, and he never listened. I really feel that it could make the match against Cage 5-5 when used appropriately, and would be a totally free escape when blocking something at neutral on block, barring an absurd read such as a random ex nut punch after having a F3 blocked.

d3 smoke away is better in that MU IMO. I use d3 smoke away all the time and prefer it to d1 even though d1 is less frames.

 

[RiBBz22]

I believe Smoke players did use d3 xx smoke-away in the MU against Cage. I remember talking to @RiBBz22 and he said that you have to rely on d3 xx Smoke-Away a lot in the matchup, but the MU is still bad.

Damn, my own post got ninja'd before I even thought about posting it! Nice!

The MU isn't turrible, but I play both characters and I really do think Cage has it easier in the MU. I would much prefer to play as Cage and be the one who is able to pressure without having to deal with Smoke being able to occupy any space on the screen. Just slight advantage Cage when you factor in Smoke's favorable qualities in the MU.

 

[Braindead]

Damn, my own post got ninja'd before I even thought about posting it! Nice!

Great minds think alike and all that crap.

 

[Saltea Moonspell]

I barely know Smoke, but played against few good ones, from what I saw Smoke is far behind Cyrax.

I play on daily basis very solid Cyrax and I know this character like my own.

He has way much better tools, pressure less risk, higher reward and on top of that breaker trap. Not to mention meter less reset in the corner that goes right after ex Ragdoll confirmed into d1 net that opens many scenarios. His corner game is insane. The ex Bazsaw s hit confirm-able. Even ex teleport can be confirmed into d1 net.

Reverse hit box of 12 is confirm-able anywhere on the stage into net. Random net advantage gives insane bonus when the risk can be afforded.
The fucken ghost hit box on teleport - thats another insane shit.

All that is tournament viable tools - just in case someone thinks other wise.

 

[Badboy Takuma]

i hate both characters. i hope no reset chars in mkx!
otherwise sayonara nrs

 

[Eddy Wang]

i hate both characters. i hope no reset chars in mkx!
otherwise sayonara nrs

#wwwdotheneedsitdotcom

 

[Badboy Takuma]

#wwwdotheneedsitdotcom

excuse me?