Question How Close Is Smoke To Cyrax?

[TotteryManx]

They definitely are not equal if that is what we're talking about. Cyrax has ridiculously easy resets and more options with pressure. Not to mention you waste a ton of meter breaking against him because it is so easy to reset.

 

[coolwhip]

He's not downplayed. Its just the fact that other top10 characters tend to exploit his weaknesses. I agree that the resets are bullshit but this character is far from 'dumb'.

Actually, Smoke's neutral game is pretty damn dumb. You're in an automatic guessing game once he's in footsie range because of D4/B2. The very threat of B2 opens you up to repeated D4's, or D4 into throw, and if you decide to take a gamble and duck, well then, you handle the consequences if he does B2. You can't try to escape that meta by jumping at him because that's suicidal against Smoke. Smoke bomb whiff punishes anywhere on screen, trades with projectiles leading to full, obscene damage combos. You can't zone him and if he has a life lead, he can just run away all day. How is he not dumb?

I think Cyrax is better but what real weaknesses does Smoke have other than his large hitbox?

 

[ChaosTheory]

The command grab is what makes me fear cyrax.
I dont fear anything of smokes, just annoyed that he can run all day.

I agree. I think Smoke has a much harder time opening you up than Cyrax. Unless you can't stop pushing buttons at certain times, Smoke shouldn't scare you too much.

They both do cheat-worthy damage. Ease of execution shouldn't be a factor in how strong a character. You're supposed to be talking about potential.

That said: if you took both of their combo damage levels down to standard levels... I say Cyrax is still a great offensive character. Smoke just doesn't do it for me.

 

[TotteryManx]

Actually, Smoke's neutral game is pretty damn dumb. You're in an automatic guessing game once he's in footsie range because of D4/B2. The very threat of B2 opens you up to repeated D4, or D4 throw, and if you decide to take a gamble and duck, well then, you handle the consequences if he does B2. You can't try to escape that meta by jumping at him because that's suicidal against Smoke. Smoke bomb whiff punishes anywhere on screen, trades with projectiles leading to full, obscene damage combos. You can't zone him and if he has a life lead, he can just run away all day. How is he not dumb?

I think Cyrax is better but what real weaknesses does Smoke have other than his large hitbox?

He doesn't have a low combo starter

 

[STRYKIE]

I fear the fact that u cant throw projectiles at Smoke...

M2Dave? how did you figure out Redrum's password?

 

[RiBBz22]

Smoke with a low would be a top 3 character and better than Cyrax. He would be an un-zonable, 50/50, reset nightmare. His pokes are amazing and pressuring him could kill you.

Yeah Smoke with a low would be really freaking stupid.

Actually, Smoke's neutral game is pretty damn dumb. You're in an automatic guessing game once he's in footsie range because of D4/B2. The very threat of B2 opens you up to repeated D4, or D4 throw, and if you decide to take a gamble and duck, well then, you handle the consequences if he does B2. You can't try to escape that meta by jumping at him because that's suicidal against Smoke. Smoke bomb whiff punishes anywhere on screen, trades with projectiles leading to full, obscene damage combos. You can't zone him and if he has a life lead, he can just run away all day. How is he not dumb?

I think Cyrax is better but what real weaknesses does Smoke have other than his large hitbox?

No armor, no advantage strings, no projectile chip without EX, no moves to put anything that occupies space on the screen, no juicy hit-confirms linking into smoke bomb, large hitbox, short horizontal hitbox for fastest punish string, bad startup properties of smoke away/towards doesn't make it an exceptional get off me tool when you compare it to Freddy.

 

[The_REAL_xVAPORx]

Actually, Smoke's neutral game is pretty damn dumb. You're in an automatic guessing game once he's in footsie range because of D4/B2. The very threat of B2 opens you up to repeated D4, or D4 throw, and if you decide to take a gamble and duck, well then, you handle the consequences if he does B2. You can't try to escape that meta by jumping at him because that's suicidal against Smoke. Smoke bomb whiff punishes anywhere on screen, trades with projectiles leading to full, obscene damage combos. You can't zone him and if he has a life lead, he can just run away all day. How is he not dumb?

I think Cyrax is better but what real weaknesses does Smoke have other than his large hitbox?

very true, smoke has an insanely good neutral game. id say his footsies are on par with, if not even better than cyraxs'. and while a large hitbox is a big downside, smoke lacks other tools that keep him from consistently performing at the highest level. mostly a lack of armor, when smoke gets caught in cage/sonya/lao pressure, he HAS to poke. obviously his EX shake was intended to act as a get out of pressure free (sort of) card, but a top rushdown player will be looking for both counterpokes and ex shakes. considering d1~smoke bomb is full combo punishable offline, it has to be used wisely. and EX shake costs vital meter that smoke generally wants to keep for resets in those particular MUs. he suffers especially hard vs rushdown characters

 

[STRYKIE]

Actually, Smoke's neutral game is pretty damn dumb. You're in an automatic guessing game once he's in footsie range because of D4/B2. The very threat of B2 opens you up to repeated D4, or D4 throw, and if you decide to take a gamble and duck, well then, you handle the consequences if he does B2. You can't try to escape that meta by jumping at him because that's suicidal against Smoke. Smoke bomb whiff punishes anywhere on screen, trades with projectiles leading to full, obscene damage combos. You can't zone him and if he has a life lead, he can just run away all day. How is he not dumb?

I think Cyrax is better but what real weaknesses does Smoke have other than his large hitbox?

I will jump to Smoke's defense on this one...

Where did the notion come from that Smoke has a large hitbox? Being jailed by Jax's F413? Because as far as I've seen, he's not exposed to anything else that would normally whiff against someone in a crouching state.

 

[coolwhip]

very true, smoke has an insanely good neutral game. id say his footsies are on par with, if not even better than cyraxs'. and while a large hitbox is a big downside, smoke lacks other tools that keep him from consistently performing at the highest level. mostly a lack of armor, when smoke gets caught in cage/sonya/lao pressure, he HAS to poke. obviously his EX shake was intended to act as a get out of pressure free (sort of) card, but a top rushdown player will be looking for both counterpokes and ex shakes. considering d1~smoke bomb is full combo punishable offline, it has to be used wisely. and EX shake costs vital meter that smoke generally wants to keep for resets in those particular MUs. he suffers especially hard vs rushdown characters

Having to poke is not exclusive to Smoke though. Cyrax himself can't armor out of pressure (ex AA grab is way too unreliable), and Smoke's D1 and D3 are both great. So I would call that a huge problem, per se.

 

[coolwhip]

No armor, no advantage strings, no projectile chip without EX, no moves to put anything that occupies space on the screen, no juicy hit-confirms linking into smoke bomb, large hitbox, short horizontal hitbox for fastest punish string, bad startup properties of smoke away/towards doesn't make it an exceptional get off me tool when you compare it to Freddy.

No armor when you have such good pokes and a great runaway game is not a huge problem. Smoke would be pretty dumb with armor, actually. Why would you need projectile chip when smoke bomb trades with everything, whiff punishes everything, and you cannot be zoned? I mean I guess Smoke has a problem if someone gets a life lead on him and turtles, but I don't think lacking something automatically equals a weakness, especially when your tools are so strong. "Juicy hit-confirms"? I don't want to revisit the whole B23 debate again, but it doesn't get juicier than a fast, unreactable overhead with great range that can be a huge problem in the footsie game and can catch jump-ins, while also leading to 100% damage. No advantage strings? Kung Lao doesn't have advantage strings either. Big deal. Smoke is not a pressure character anyway, and you're already so dominant in the footsies that you don't really need an advantage string. Again, lacking something does not necessarily mean it's a weakness.

If we're going to nit-pick you can find weaknesses with anyone but Kabal.

He doesn't have a low combo starter

There was actually a time when Smoke players were demanding that Smoke's 3 should be a low, in exchange for the reset.

 

[RiBBz22]

Having to poke is not exclusive to Smoke though. Cyrax himself can't armor out of pressure (ex AA grab is way too unreliable), and Smoke's D1 and D3 are both great. So I would call that a huge problem, per se.

Ex Ragdoll is an armor move

 

[RiBBz22]

No armor when you have such good pokes and a great runaway game is not a huge problem. Smoke would be pretty dumb with armor, actually. Why would you need projectile chip when smoke bomb trades with everything, whiff punishes everything, and you cannot be zoned? I mean I guess Smoke has a problem if someone gets a life lead on him and turtle, but I don't think lacking something automatically equals a weakness, especially when your tools are so strong. "Juicy hit-confirms"? I don't want to revisit the whole B23 debate again, but it doesn't get juicier than a fast, unreactable overhead with great range that can be a huge problem in the footsie game and can catch jump-ins, while also that leading to 100% damage. No advantage strings? Kung Lao doesn't have advantage strings either. Big deal. Smoke is not a pressure character anyway, and you're already so dominant in the footsies that you don't really need an advantage string. Again, lacking something does not necessarily mean it's a weakness.

If we're going to nit-pick you can find weaknesses with anyone but Kabal.

Kung Lao doesn't have advantage strings but he has a 7 frame move to follow up with and a 6 frame special that launches and has to be respected. There is a difference. Great runaway game in neutral yeah, but under pressure and in the corner anyone with armor has a much better runaway game at that point. Smoke is an awesome character, and I am not saying these issues should have been addressed. However, you make it sound like he almost has no issues which is completely incorrect so I am just here to set you straight.

 

[coolwhip]

Ex Ragdoll is an armor move

Um, no it's not.

 

[RiBBz22]

Um, no it's not.

Yeah sorry I was meaning as a get off me move on wake-up not armor.

 

[Matix218]

Actually, Smoke's neutral game is pretty damn dumb. You're in an automatic guessing game once he's in footsie range because of D4/B2. The very threat of B2 opens you up to repeated D4, or D4 throw, and if you decide to take a gamble and duck, well then, you handle the consequences if he does B2. You can't try to escape that meta by jumping at him because that's suicidal against Smoke. Smoke bomb whiff punishes anywhere on screen, trades with projectiles leading to full, obscene damage combos. You can't zone him and if he has a life lead, he can just run away all day. How is he not dumb?

I think Cyrax is better but what real weaknesses does Smoke have other than his large hitbox?

Other than not having any armor and the large hitbox he really has very little weakness. He doesn't even need the reset to be a solid character IMO (not that I'm complaining because he is my main lol)

 

[Matix218]

Oh and I would GLADLY take 3 being a low instead of having the reset. But given how many post combo setups smoke has it would prove to be broken I think

I mean most of smokes midscreen bnbs without resets do 30-38 and end in a setup... add in a safe 50/50 with a combo on either option and he may be kabal tier or worse

 

[RM AtK!]

Lol blown up @THTB

 

[coolwhip]

Kung Lao doesn't have advantage strings but he has a 7 frame move to follow up with and a 6 frame special that launches and has to be respected. There is a difference. Great runaway game in neutral yeah, but under pressure and in the corner anyone with armor has a much better runaway game at that point. Smoke is an awesome character, and I am not saying these issues should have been addressed. However, you make it sound like he almost has no issues which is completely incorrect so I am just here to set you straight.

Yeah, obviously Kung Lao doesn't need an advantage string and he'd be pretty stupid if he did. Because after every block string there's a guessing game if he's going to spin or just continue his pressure, which forces you to decide whether to poke out or not. That's the way Kung Lao works.

Smoke just isn't a rushdown character nor was he designed as such, so I don't see the big deal about not having an advantage string. The reason I don't view it as significant weakness is it rarely comes into play with the way he's meant to be played. I'm sure it would an addition of he had it, but not having it isn't a big detriment to his game since you're not looking to be in your opponent's face at all times, and the fact that you get some many D4's by sheer threat of B2 is enough frame advantage to dash in and do a string/grab.

 

[RM AtK!]

Yeah, obviously Kung Lao doesn't need an advantage string and he'd be pretty stupid if he did. Because after every block string there's a guessing game if he's going to spin or just continue his pressure, which forces you to decide whether to poke out or not. That's the way Kung Lao works.

Smoke just isn't a rushdown character nor was he designed as such, so I don't see the big deal about not having an advantage string. The reason I don't view it as significant weakness is it rarely comes into play with the way he's meant to be played. I'm sure it would an addition of he had it, but not having it isn't a big detriment to his game since you're not looking to be in your opponent's face at all times, and the fact that you get some many D4's by sheer threat of B2 is enough frame advantage to dash in and do a string/grab.

this is dumb... theres a ton of characters that have a d4 thats +10 or more on hit....

and for 1 cyrax has a d4 that allows him to literally dash up and 12 net u if u tried doing something at the time u got hit, meaning u arent able to block. atleast with smoke u can block w/e mixup he has if u got hit. + there are ton of characters that get a free hit off of a crouching d3 hit. this debate is pretty stupid smoke is a solid character period, but he's not on Lao or Cyrax levels sorry.

 

[RiBBz22]

Yeah, obviously Kung Lao doesn't need an advantage string and he'd be pretty stupid if he did. Because after every block string there's a guessing game if he's going to spin or just continue his pressure, which forces you to decide whether to poke out or not. That's the way Kung Lao works.

Smoke just isn't a rushdown character nor was he designed as such, so I don't see the big deal about not having an advantage string. The reason I don't view it as significant weakness is it rarely comes into play with the way he's meant to be played. I'm sure it would an addition of he had it, but not having it isn't a big detriment to his game since you're not looking to be in your opponent's face at all times, and the fact that you get some many D4's by sheer threat of B2 is enough frame advantage to dash in and do a string/grab.

When did I say it was a big deal? I actually already said it was not a big deal. Again, you just make it sound like the character has no issues and he certainly does. And some of these issues lead to him suffering more than most against a few of the top tier while he mauls the majority of other characters.

 

[coolwhip]

this is dumb... theres a ton of characters that have a d4 thats +10 or more on hit....

and for 1 cyrax has a d4 that allows him to literally dash up and 12 net u if u tried doing something at the time u got hit, meaning u arent able to block. atleast with smoke u can block w/e mixup he has if u got hit. + there are ton of characters that get a free hit off of a crouching d3 hit. this debate is pretty stupid smoke is a solid character period, but he's not on Lao or Cyrax levels sorry.

*Sigh* this what I hate about TYM. I make a very obvious statement, but because I don't spoonfeed the meaning, someone misunderstands it and worse, calls me dumb.

Please, can you in your vast knowledge, tell me which other character has a 15 frame overhead with great range that launches for a 100% combo? Because that's what makes Smoke's D4 good. Not the D4 alone. I can't believe Smoke players don't even understand this.

The thing about Smoke's D4 is, it's almost a mix-up, because everyone is so terrified about B2. So you get a ton of free D4's that other characters wouldn't normally get. Which means Smoke gets that advantage on hit without needing an advantage block string. Get the difference now?

And where the fuck did you see me say Smoke is equal to Cyrax? Cyrax's pressure is way better, and the guessing game after D4 is dumb because you're terrified of command grab pressure but are even more terrified of misreading it and eating 21 into an 80% combo (I swear I'm just repeating myself because I literally made the same post in another thread recently...the same thread in which Smoke players were arguing that B23 is difficult to hitconfirm, while another Smoke player was saying that B2 alone can be hit-confirmed. I don't know what that says about your understanding of your character but those are two pretty conflicting statements so the Smoke community needs to make up its mind).

As far as Smoke vs. Kung Lao, Smoke is literally one place behind him on the tier list. I think Kung Lao is a marginally better character, and definitely beats Smoke in that match-up, but he's hardly that superior. Of course Smoke players see it from the eyes of their character, whom they once argued loses 7-3 to Kung Lao.

Good grief.

 

[Matix218]

*Sigh* this what I hate about TYM. I make a very obvious statement, but because I don't spoonfeed the meaning, someone misunderstands it and worse, calls me dumb.

Please, can you in your vast knowledge, tell me which other character has a 15 frame overhead with great range that launches for a 100% combo? Because that's what makes Smoke's D4 good. Not the D4 alone. I can't believe Smoke players don't even understand this.

The thing about Smoke's D4 is, it's almost a mix-up, because everyone is so terrified about B2. So you get a ton of free D4's that other characters wouldn't normally get. Which means Smoke gets that advantage on hit without needing an advantage block string. Get the difference now?

And where the fuck did you see me say Smoke is equal to Cyrax? Cyrax's pressure is way better, and the guessing game after D4 is dumb because you're terrified of command grab pressure but are even more terrified of misreading it and eating 21 into an 80% combo (I swear I'm just repeating myself because I literally made the same post in another thread recently...the same thread in which Smoke players were arguing that B23 is difficult to hitconfirm, while another Smoke player -- you -- was saying that B2 alone can be hit-confirmed. I don't know what that says about your understanding of your character but those are two pretty conflicting statements so the Smoke community needs to make up its mind).

As far as Smoke vs. Kung Lao, Smoke is literally one place behind him on the tier list. I think Kung Lao is a marginally better character, and definitely beats Smoke in that match-up, but he's hardly that superior. Of course Smoke players see it from the eyes of their character, whom they once argued loses 7-3 to Kung Lao.

Good grief.

I agree with everything in this post. Btw what smoke player was saying b23 is a difficult hit confirm? Its like one of the easiest IMO

 

[RM AtK!]

*Sigh* this what I hate about TYM. I make a very obvious statement, but because I don't spoonfeed the meaning, someone misunderstands it and worse, calls me dumb.

Please, can you in your vast knowledge, tell me which other character has a 15 frame overhead with great range that launches for a 100% combo? Because that's what makes Smoke's D4 good. Not the D4 alone. I can't believe Smoke players don't even understand this.

The thing about Smoke's D4 is, it's almost a mix-up, because everyone is so terrified about B2. So you get a ton of free D4's that other characters wouldn't normally get. Which means Smoke gets that advantage on hit without needing an advantage block string. Get the difference now?

And where the fuck did you see me say Smoke is equal to Cyrax? Cyrax's pressure is way better, and the guessing game after D4 is dumb because you're terrified of command grab pressure but are even more terrified of misreading it and eating 21 into an 80% combo (I swear I'm just repeating myself because I literally made the same post in another thread recently...the same thread in which Smoke players were arguing that B23 is difficult to hitconfirm, while another Smoke player -- you -- was saying that B2 alone can be hit-confirmed. I don't know what that says about your understanding of your character but those are two pretty conflicting statements so the Smoke community needs to make up its mind).

As far as Smoke vs. Kung Lao, Smoke is literally one place behind him on the tier list. I think Kung Lao is a marginally better character, and definitely beats Smoke in that match-up, but he's hardly that superior. Of course Smoke players see it from the eyes of their character, whom they once argued loses 7-3 to Kung Lao.

Good grief.

i never said b2 can be hitconfirmed into a sb don't put words in my mouth.. if you're terrified to crouch than you have bad reads.. he pressures u with normals meaning hes neutral with you after everything he does on block. you block 1 thing you're free to poke or punish him for doing a d3 on block trying to get advantage again and continue in his OP 5050 MIXUPS <---

this is why I hate tym<-- people like you that maybe just dont understand the matchup? i've never had a problem gettin out of smokes "5050" on my alts so...

 

[Matix218]

i never said b2 can be hitconfirmed into a sb don't put words in my mouth.. if you're terrified to crouch than you have bad reads.. he pressures u with normals meaning hes neutral with you after everything he does on block. you block 1 thing you're free to poke or punish him for doing a d3 on block trying to get advantage again and continue in his OP 5050 MIXUPS <---

this is why I hate tym<-- people like you that maybe just dont understand the matchup? i've never had a problem gettin out of smokes "5050" on my alts so...

You are not automatically free to poke after blocking something against smoke because he can end anything with a sb. It makes people afraid to mash a counter poke because the risk is in smokes favor in almost every matchup. If they go for a poke after blocking a smoke neutral on block move but the smoke player ends in a smokebomb, they just ate a huge combo. If they guess right, they get a poke and a blockstring. Seems like a scary guess for smokes opponent that would make them hesitate to want to risk a poke on all of his moves that are neutral on block. Yes I get that if they read smokebomb ender after a blocked string most characters can full combo punish, but MOST characters do way less damage than smoke so the mindgame or "threat" is still in smokes favor imo

 

[THTB]

Ex Ragdoll is an armor move

EX ragdoll doesn't have armor...

Also, to put it better, I think Cyrax is better for sure, and I'd put Smoke at 6 or 7. Only thing I was seeing is if that gap between Cyrax and Smoke was even that great.

@Matix218 that's why I even said Smoke has pressure. Having pressure isn't purely having a lot of options to take note of that are scary...it can oftentimes be that one option that makes you scared to poke back because you have to read or die. Both of these characters do have that in common.