Question How Close Is Smoke To Cyrax?

[RM AtK!]

@THTB needs to be blown up for this. He was in @R.E.O. 's stream last night and randomly started matchup copping, spouting nonsense that Smoke is secret top 5 and that he is just as good as, if not better than, Cyrax.

@A F0xy Grampa it's funny that you talked about fearing his command grab in pressure. That was my number one complaint with Cyrax, and THTB says (I shit you not) that "HIS COMMAND GRAB IS 14 FRAMES THAT YOU CAN EITHER READ OR REACT TO." Um, no. You need to let go of block to try to get out of Cyrax's command grab, which is a risk that you lose a lifebar for guessing wrong on.

Cyrax also has legitimate frame traps (334 is +5), ground unblockables, and one of the best d4s in the game. THTB refused to be regulated by a "troll" like me, so he made this thread out of spite for the public spanking I gave him for such insolence.

like x 999999

 

[coolwhip]

@THTB needs to be blown up for this. He was in @R.E.O. 's stream last night and randomly started matchup copping, spouting nonsense that Smoke is secret top 5 and that he is just as good as, if not better than, Cyrax.

@A F0xy Grampa it's funny that you talked about fearing his command grab in pressure. That was my number one complaint with Cyrax, and THTB says (I shit you not) that "HIS COMMAND GRAB IS 14 FRAMES THAT YOU CAN EITHER READ OR REACT TO." Um, no. You need to let go of block to try to get out of Cyrax's command grab, which is a risk that you lose a lifebar for guessing wrong on.

Cyrax also has legitimate frame traps (334 is +5), ground unblockables, and one of the best d4s in the game. THTB refused to be regulated by a "troll" like me, so he made this thread out of spite for the public spanking I gave him for such insolence.

Cyrax's command grab looks too much like standing 1 anyway. It's not impossible, but it's really hard to react to, and in case you make the wrong read, well, good games.

 

[coolwhip]

Life sucks when you are secret top 5 and you still lose to 3 of the top 4 characters :/

Many argue that Kung Lao is top 5 and yet he loses to Kabal, Cyrax and Sonya. That's 3 out of the top 5 characters. I'm not being a dick and I don't think Smoke is top 5, but I'm just saying. Smoke sits at 7 in my book, and is really comparable to Freddy and Kung Lao in terms of how good he is, so it's not that big of a stretch. I'll never agree he's as good as Cyrax though. Cyrax terrifies me.

PS: Smoke bodies Freddy, and many would argue he beats Kenshi and Cyrax. He doesn't do that badly against the top 5. In fact, he does pretty good. Losing to Kabal means he's just in line with everyone else.

 

[RiBBz22]

PS: Smoke bodies Freddy, and many would argue he beats Kenshi and Cyrax. He doesn't do that badly against the top 5. In fact, he does pretty good. Losing to Kabal means he's just in line with everyone else.

Smoke beats Freddy, barely loses to Cyrax, and goes even or slightly beats Kenshi. Kabal/Sonya/Cyrax are the 3 I am talking about. The difference between those MUs for me is that I believe Smoke loses to KL, and the gap is bigger in the losing MUs to Sonya and Kabal when compared to KL.

 

[The_REAL_xVAPORx]

I may be the only smoke main that thinks he beats cyrax 6-4. He definitely loses to KL and Sonya 4-6 and kabal is a hard 4-6/3-7, I think he beats kenshi 6-4. I'd feel confident running a gauntlet series to back up those MU numbers. Mostly the cyrax MU, I think it's time that MU got some closure.

 

[ForeverKing]

lol at smoke having a 50/50 game...

you should never block low vs smoke.

A bunch of D3s and D4s > Eating a huge reset b/c you ate a B2

But doesn't Smoke's D4 guarantee enough hit advantage that you HAVE to block another D4? If that was the case then you have to block low eventually against Smoke. Or he can literally just D4 you to death

 

[THTB]

@THTB needs to be blown up for this. He was in @R.E.O. 's stream last night and randomly started matchup copping, spouting nonsense that Smoke is secret top 5 and that he is just as good as, if not better than, Cyrax.

Whoa. At least get your facts straight on what I even said lol. I never even said he was secret top 5 lol. I said he's just as fucked up and I felt he had better footsies. They both do ridiculous damage, too. I felt he was pretty close. Whether he's top 5 is debatable, but as I said earlier, I had him at the 6 or 7 spot and I felt the gap between the two wasn't very big. Nor did I ever say his matchups were any different. The only matchup I even really commented on about Smoke was Freddy, and that was that Smoke is literally THE ONLY CHARACTER IN THE GAME TO BLOW UP A TOP 5 CHARACTER WORSE THAN 7-3.

But yeah, blow me up for the command throw lol. I'll take that L, though when you brought it up I was talking about footsies. How the fuck do you use a 14f command throw that doesn't have that much range in footsies...? It's more than a normal throw, but not by that much.

Oh, and I commented on the Scorpion matchup, because I felt Scorpion got blown up even worse by Smoke than Cyrax did.

 

[Pho Cubic]

Coolwhip is 100% right.

Although Cyrax is better, Smoke is still ridiculously good. Smoke's footsies are fucking stupid. Either you get killed by d4 spamming or you take 70% percent. He can run away all day, & his anti-zoning/full screen launcher force you to come to him. You can't jump at him because of his insanely good anti-air, & if the opponent's in the corner he can swag EX tele you on reaction into d1~sb, reset. Smoke's game is so dumb that he's one of the only characters in the game that arguably beats Kenshi which says enough on it's own. The character is fucking stupid. He's not broken like Cyrax but he's very stupid.

As others have said what makes Cyrax better is his smaller hitbox, his 1000+ setups, easier resets, meter-draining net, & his rushdown. Smoke's footsies are better, but Cyrax's is dumb up close. +16 d4, command grab, OH buzzsaw that lets him put bombs on the screen, & EX ragdoll is low. His rushdown isn't as good as Cage, but against Cage you can make a mistake & live. Cyrax one mistake & you're dead.

Many people put Cyrax at 3 on the tier list, & in theory that's probably correct, but imo because of human error & the fact that one bad read = death in reality I think he's tied with Kenshi at 2. People naturally make mistakes, & up close you can't make a mistake vs Cyrax. Also if Cyrax wins the first match, he can purposely lforce you to use meter in the 2nd just to be at full meter for the 3rd round. I really didn't see too much of this during MK9's lifespan (probably because it's fucking cheap lol), but if Cyrax has full meter & the opponent has none you're fucking done. Imo in terms of rounds (not full matches), he 9-1's most of the cast when he has full meter & they don't have any. Also Cyrax's anti-air goes through projectiles (it's VERY hard to time, but possible) so I don't think it's that hard for him to get in.

 

[GuamoKun]

@THTB needs to be blown up for this. He was in @R.E.O. 's stream last night and randomly started matchup copping, spouting nonsense that Smoke is secret top 5 and that he is just as good as, if not better than, Cyrax.

@A F0xy Grampa it's funny that you talked about fearing his command grab in pressure. That was my number one complaint with Cyrax, and THTB says (I shit you not) that "HIS COMMAND GRAB IS 14 FRAMES THAT YOU CAN EITHER READ OR REACT TO." Um, no. You need to let go of block to try to get out of Cyrax's command grab, which is a risk that you lose a lifebar for guessing wrong on.

Cyrax also has legitimate frame traps (334 is +5), ground unblockables, and one of the best d4s in the game. THTB refused to be regulated by a "troll" like me, so he made this thread out of spite for the public spanking I gave him for such insolence.

@Krayzie
LOL THEY THINK YOU CANT REACT TO THE COMMAND GRAB

Well I can most of the time ehuehue

 

[Peckapowa]

very true, smoke has an insanely good neutral game. id say his footsies are on par with, if not even better than cyraxs'. and while a large hitbox is a big downside, smoke lacks other tools that keep him from consistently performing at the highest level. mostly a lack of armor, when smoke gets caught in cage/sonya/lao pressure, he HAS to poke. obviously his EX shake was intended to act as a get out of pressure free (sort of) card, but a top rushdown player will be looking for both counterpokes and ex shakes. considering d1~smoke bomb is full combo punishable offline, it has to be used wisely. and EX shake costs vital meter that smoke generally wants to keep for resets in those particular MUs. he suffers especially hard vs rushdown characters

to be fair cyrax struggles with presure in the same way... his down 3 is actually 9 frames... so he his best option is down 1 or counter-poke with 12... both of which are punishable...

 

[Killphil]

D4~smokeball. Only reptile can punish it.

 

[THTB]

to be fair cyrax struggles with presure in the same way... his down 3 is actually 9 frames... so he his best option is down 1 or counter-poke with 12... both of which are punishable...

I'd say Cyrax struggles even worse. Can't Smoke do d1/d3 xx smoke away and if the d1/d3 hits, it's safe?

 

[THTB]

D4~smokeball. Only reptile can punish it.

 

[Peckapowa]

Whoa. At least get your facts straight on what I even said lol. I never even said he was secret top 5 lol. I said he's just as fucked up and I felt he had better footsies. They both do ridiculous damage, too. I felt he was pretty close. Whether he's top 5 is debatable, but as I said earlier, I had him at the 6 or 7 spot and I felt the gap between the two wasn't very big. Nor did I ever say his matchups were any different. The only matchup I even really commented on about Smoke was Freddy, and that was that Smoke is literally THE ONLY CHARACTER IN THE GAME TO BLOW UP A TOP 5 CHARACTER WORSE THAN 7-3.

But yeah, blow me up for the command throw lol. I'll take that L, though when you brought it up I was talking about footsies. How the fuck do you use a 14f command throw that doesn't have that much range in footsies...? It's more than a normal throw, but not by that much.

Oh, and I commented on the Scorpion matchup, because I felt Scorpion got blown up even worse by Smoke than Cyrax did.

BillStickers said Hawkgirl had like what "2 bad matchups?"... from what i have seen i prefer your logic much more

Cyrax potential bad matchups: smoke, freddy, sonya, kabal, sektor jax... also a lot of even matchups which he might lose or win to add on... it's only his damage which really stops liu kang and cage from beating him... most characters easily outzone cyrax whereas smoke forces people to come to him

Smoke potential bad matchups: Kenshi (people who argue smoke wins... kenshi has to sit there and do nothing with a lifelead and smoke can't do much at all, plus he has armor and a huge advantage in footsies because of charge, 5-5 because of damage), johnny cage (5-5 in my eyes because of damage and footsies), sonya, jax, kung lao( is this as bad as people say with smoke punishment ability???), kabal (same as lao), reptile.... he has other even matchups like Baraka


they really aren't all that different imo

 

[Peckapowa]

Many argue that Kung Lao is top 5 and yet he loses to Kabal, Cyrax and Sonya. That's 3 out of the top 5 characters. I'm not being a dick and I don't think Smoke is top 5, but I'm just saying. Smoke sits at 7 in my book, and is really comparable to Freddy and Kung Lao in terms of how good he is, so it's not that big of a stretch. I'll never agree he's as good as Cyrax though. Cyrax terrifies me.

PS: Smoke bodies Freddy, and many would argue he beats Kenshi and Cyrax. He doesn't do that badly against the top 5. In fact, he does pretty good. Losing to Kabal means he's just in line with everyone else.

It's possible smoke is better than freddy, Freddy bodies most characters but has some horrible matchups when you consider smoke, kabal, and kung lao

 

[DarthArma]

 

[Slips]

I posted this about a week ago in a different thread. Personally, I feel Smoke was secret top tier. I think if @GGA Wafflez would've put the time in to learn the matchups that forced him to play outside of his meta he would've won more majors. (Cage, KL, Kabal)

a) Smoke handles runaway and zoning better than Cyrax.
This is obvious. Shake and teleport punch for projectiles and smoke bomb is a huge threat once Smoke starts closing the gap forcing people to block.

b) Smoke's AA is better than Cyrax.
Cyrax's air grab is super consistent, but the damage is very low. I don't even care half the time. His standing 1 and 2 AA are very iffy AA's and often don't lead to resets. Smoke's standing 2, b2 and d1 for crossups are godlike and can always lead to a reset for insane and stupid damage. I'd rather have Smoke's AA than Cyrax's.

c) Smoke's footsies are better than Cyrax's.
People will argue Cyrax's d4 wins this argument but I beg to differ. Cyrax's d4 only has a disgusting guessing game when it hits you standing. When it hits you crouching, he's actually at disadvantage. As long as you keep a low profile in footsie range you takeaway his best footsie tool. Hell I used to crouch and get hit on purpose by @GGA HAN's Cyrax just to bait him and get advantage. This is not something you can do against Smoke. When you get in footsie range with Smoke, you are automatically stuck in his best guessing game. There's no setting up his best guessing game. Just being in his presence put you there.

d) Smoke does better meterless damage than Cyrax.
This is obvious as well.

e) Smoke has better momentum than Cyrax.
Cyrax hits hard, but at least when it's over...it's over. Smoke can do resets to you, then teleport for more guessing even after you've lost 70%. Shit is stupid. I'm getting mad posting about all this stupid shit.

f) Smoke's runaway is better.
Again, obvious. Smoke away all day.

I'll give Cyrax has a couple things Smoke doesn't, like more unbreakable damage, bombs, and better pressure. But when you take in the above points I don't think it's outrageous to say Smoke was at least on Cyrax's level.

 

[BillStickers]

BillStickers said Hawkgirl had like what "2 bad matchups?"... from what i have seen i prefer your logic much more

I was corrected numerous times; I don't think that she only has 2 bad matchups anymore. You should thank me for putting myself out there. Too many people on TYM post gifs or memes because they're afraid to get blown up for saying something incorrect, and as a result all actual game discussion has been taken to Skype and Twitch.

 

[RiBBz22]

I posted this about a week ago in a different thread. Personally, I feel Smoke was secret top tier. I think if @GGA Wafflez would've put the time in to learn the matchups that forced him to play outside of his meta he would've won more majors. (Cage, KL, Kabal)

a) Smoke handles runaway and zoning better than Cyrax.
This is obvious. Shake and teleport punch for projectiles and smoke bomb is a huge threat once Smoke starts closing the gap forcing people to block.

b) Smoke's AA is better than Cyrax.
Cyrax's air grab is super consistent, but the damage is very low. I don't even care half the time. His standing 1 and 2 AA are very iffy AA's and often don't lead to resets. Smoke's standing 2, b2 and d1 for crossups are godlike and can always lead to a reset for insane and stupid damage. I'd rather have Smoke's AA than Cyrax's.

c) Smoke's footsies are better than Cyrax's.
People will argue Cyrax's d4 wins this argument but I beg to differ. Cyrax's d4 only has a disgusting guessing game when it hits you standing. When it hits you crouching, he's actually at disadvantage. As long as you keep a low profile in footsie range you takeaway his best footsie tool. Hell I used to crouch and get hit on purpose by @GGA HAN's Cyrax just to bait him and get advantage. This is not something you can do against Smoke. When you get in footsie range with Smoke, you are automatically stuck in his best guessing game. There's no setting up his best guessing game. Just being in his presence put you there.

d) Smoke does better meterless damage than Cyrax.
This is obvious as well.

e) Smoke has better momentum than Cyrax.
Cyrax hits hard, but at least when it's over...it's over. Smoke can do resets to you, then teleport for more guessing even after you've lost 70%. Shit is stupid. I'm getting mad posting about all this stupid shit.

f) Smoke's runaway is better.
Again, obvious. Smoke away all day.

I'll give Cyrax has a couple things Smoke doesn't, like more unbreakable damage, bombs, and better pressure. But when you take in the above points I don't think it's outrageous to say Smoke was at least on Cyrax's level.

I definitely agree with just about everything here tbh, and good point about Cyrax's D4 properties on a crouching opponent. You really need to step back and think about how Smoke handles rushdown in a rushdown heavy game, which MK9 is in my opinion. That is not mentioned in your write up and I think it is a big omission. Smoke does a ton of things better than Cyrax IMO and I have argued this PLENTY in the Smoke forum. Cyrax obviously has some advantages over Smoke. But not all advantages should be automatically thought of as having equal weight.

For example, I picked up Cyrax when I bought the game on steam a while ago and when I play Smoke I could care less that he shuts down my zoning. There is no reason for me to ever put a net on the screen...I have no trouble getting in and putting him into my world of broken bullshit.

 

[BillStickers]

People will argue Cyrax's d4 wins this argument but I beg to differ. Cyrax's d4 only has a disgusting guessing game when it hits you standing. When it hits you crouching, he's actually at disadvantage. As long as you keep a low profile in footsie range you takeaway his best footsie tool. Hell I used to crouch and get hit on purpose by @GGA HAN's Cyrax just to bait him and get advantage. This is not something you can do against Smoke. When you get in footsie range with Smoke, you are automatically stuck in his best guessing game. There's no setting up his best guessing game. Just being in his presence put you there.

Cyrax's d4 is actually 0 on block vs. crouch, which I guess you could argue is disadvantage if he's player 2, but more importantly, his cancel advantage always allows for a free overhead buzzsaw on block and hit, which is -10 but has insane pushback. The overhead part alone will force you to stand against him, though, or give him free bomb pressure and a knockdown.

 

[STRYKIE]

BillStickers said Hawkgirl had like what "2 bad matchups?"... from what i have seen i prefer your logic much more

Cyrax potential bad matchups: smoke, freddy, sonya, kabal, sektor jax... also a lot of even matchups which he might lose or win to add on... it's only his damage which really stops liu kang and cage from beating him... most characters easily outzone cyrax whereas smoke forces people to come to him

Smoke potential bad matchups: Kenshi (people who argue smoke wins... kenshi has to sit there and do nothing with a lifelead and smoke can't do much at all, plus he has armor and a huge advantage in footsies because of charge, 5-5 because of damage), johnny cage (5-5 in my eyes because of damage and footsies), sonya, jax, kung lao( is this as bad as people say with smoke punishment ability???), kabal (same as lao), reptile.... he has other even matchups like Baraka


they really aren't all that different imo

Considering the basis of which Smoke beats Freddy, Smoke then losing to Kenshi systematically makes no sense whatsoever.

And as far as Cyrax losing to Sektor, I sincerely hope you're not still clinging on to the whole IATUing bombs thing. You have to be looking for it which gives a fundamentally savvy Cyrax player leeway to approach with D4. Which also high crushes ALL of Sektor's mids.

Waking up with TU (EX or not) is also risky since if Cyrax uses his own tele as an oki, it will collide with the invincibility frames and go into the ball roll animation.

 

[Peckapowa]

Considering the basis of which Smoke beats Freddy, Smoke then losing to Kenshi systematically makes no sense whatsoever.

And as far as Cyrax losing to Sektor, I sincerely hope you're not still clinging on to the whole IATUing bombs thing. You have to be looking for it which gives a fundamentally savvy Cyrax player leeway to approach with D4. Which also high crushes ALL of Sektor's mids.

Waking up with TU (EX or not) is also risky since if Cyrax uses his own tele as an oki, it will collide with the invincibility frames and go into the ball roll animation.

Cyrax's CGRAB whiffs on sektor because of his hitbox, sektor outfootsies and outzones him, and reacting to bombs you can have it, but you can IATP nets on reaction.

There is a huge difference between kenshi smoke and kenshi freddy...

smoke heavily outfootsies freddy along with outzoning him... freddy has terrible offensive footsies...

Kenshi can hang out at shoulder range and simple move around and shoulder everything on reaction or use his superior advancing moves as a mixup, with a life lead he can just turtle up real hard, and either down 3 into shoulder or shoulder everything... or if he really wants to be safe, use armor in certain situations.

Kenshi has great offense and can establish it relatively safely vs smoke...freddy has to take stupid risks.

 

[Slips]

Cyrax's d4 is actually 0 on block vs. crouch, which I guess you could argue is disadvantage if he's player 2, but more importantly, his cancel advantage always allows for a free overhead buzzsaw on block and hit, which is -10 but has insane pushback. The overhead part alone will force you to stand against him, though, or give him free bomb pressure and a knockdown.

True and I personally would rather deal with post buzz saw bomb pressure instead of Smoke's d4 pressure. I can see if you have viable armor you wouldn't fear Smoke's d4 pressure as much, so it could be I'm viewing it through the eyes of Scorp too much. But I've always felt this was worth talking about right or wrong.

 

[Matix218]

True and I personally would rather deal with post buzz saw bomb pressure instead of Smoke's d4 pressure. I can see if you have viable armor you wouldn't fear Smoke's d4 pressure as much, so it could be I'm viewing it through the eyes of Scorp too much. But I've always felt this was worth talking about right or wrong.

Are you implying that Scorp's armor is less than reliable?
Kappa

 

[M2Dave]

I posted this about a week ago in a different thread. Personally, I feel Smoke was secret top tier. I think if @GGA Wafflez would've put the time in to learn the matchups that forced him to play outside of his meta he would've won more majors. (Cage, KL, Kabal)

a) Smoke handles runaway and zoning better than Cyrax.
This is obvious. Shake and teleport punch for projectiles and smoke bomb is a huge threat once Smoke starts closing the gap forcing people to block.

b) Smoke's AA is better than Cyrax.
Cyrax's air grab is super consistent, but the damage is very low. I don't even care half the time. His standing 1 and 2 AA are very iffy AA's and often don't lead to resets. Smoke's standing 2, b2 and d1 for crossups are godlike and can always lead to a reset for insane and stupid damage. I'd rather have Smoke's AA than Cyrax's.

c) Smoke's footsies are better than Cyrax's.
People will argue Cyrax's d4 wins this argument but I beg to differ. Cyrax's d4 only has a disgusting guessing game when it hits you standing. When it hits you crouching, he's actually at disadvantage. As long as you keep a low profile in footsie range you takeaway his best footsie tool. Hell I used to crouch and get hit on purpose by @GGA HAN's Cyrax just to bait him and get advantage. This is not something you can do against Smoke. When you get in footsie range with Smoke, you are automatically stuck in his best guessing game. There's no setting up his best guessing game. Just being in his presence put you there.

d) Smoke does better meterless damage than Cyrax.
This is obvious as well.

e) Smoke has better momentum than Cyrax.
Cyrax hits hard, but at least when it's over...it's over. Smoke can do resets to you, then teleport for more guessing even after you've lost 70%. Shit is stupid. I'm getting mad posting about all this stupid shit.

f) Smoke's runaway is better.
Again, obvious. Smoke away all day.

I'll give Cyrax has a couple things Smoke doesn't, like more unbreakable damage, bombs, and better pressure. But when you take in the above points I don't think it's outrageous to say Smoke was at least on Cyrax's level.

Great post.

Smoke was ultimately a severely down played character who was down played by all Smoke players who were bad players who never won anything.