Here's how you balance Reptile.

[hardwire]

with out starting a flame war (i know loads of people probly hate me enuff already)

why do you feel somthing is ok for reptile and not ok for others?

my example was what if smokes tp punch got the 6 frames and the small punish window and i was told that would be unfair

so once again why is that unfair for smoke (or some one else) but not reptile?

 

[THTB]

That type of buff, I don't think you understand, is MUCH MUCH different than dash. What you thought of with Smoke would give him the ability to get in on you on reaction, and be relatively safe in the process. It wouldn't matter whether you're at midscreen or at fullscreen, and the move works on airborne opponents, as well. That's a huge difference from a move that, at the most, crosses about 1/2 screen, does not avoid any sort of projectile, and doesn't hit airborne opponents.

Maybe it could use more recovery (If anything, a stagger animation with the same recovery and blockstun data as before would work), but that type of comparison is just...really not a good one and is just doing so in an attempt to compare.

 

[Lyuben]

But smoke teleport blocked= full combo.

Reptile blocked dash= throw, fast special.

But yes I do think it would be a stupid thing to give smoke, he is fine and does not need buffs. Except maybe that issue with his wake up shake.

 

[hardwire]

That type of buff, I don't think you understand, is MUCH MUCH different than dash. What you thought of with Smoke would give him the ability to get in on you on reaction, and be relatively safe in the process. It wouldn't matter whether you're at midscreen or at fullscreen, and the move works on airborne opponents, as well. That's a huge difference from a move that, at the most, crosses about 1/2 screen, does not avoid any sort of projectile, and doesn't hit airborne opponents.

Maybe it could use more recovery (If anything, a stagger animation with the same recovery and blockstun data as before would work), but that type of comparison is just...really not a good one and is just doing so in an attempt to compare.

well now hold on it can be hit by projectiles (raidin shuts it down very well) and you can be kicked out of it (if they are lucky granted)

 

[hardwire]

But smoke teleport blocked= full combo.

Reptile blocked dash= throw, fast special.

But yes I do think it would be a stupid thing to give smoke, he is fine and does not need buffs. Except maybe that issue with his wake up shake.

hold up im not saying give smoke a buff IM NOT SAYING GIVE SMOKE A BUFF sorry wanted to be clear on this

this is a what if situation

cuse most would agree that if smoke had that it would be prity damn broken right

so im asking why is it ok for 1 to have it and not every one? simple question to find out what is considered balance

 

[xxteefxx]

aghh...

Now , into the serious stuff. Do people know that you can stop Elbow dash up to sweep distance by a poke or uppercut on initial starter if timed correctly? do u also know that from far away you can jump over NJP catch it ? do you also know that there are a LOT of special moves that beats Elbow dahs whether EX or not?
i can understand if people are sad that elbow dahs owns them if they Play with sheeva or stryker or baraka sometimes......but what about the other characters? and SMOKE? really? Smoke players?

the conversation changed into SMoke teleport on block is more punishable.....a player doing smoke teleport and it's blocked on ground , is AN IDIOT! cause seriously, the only way smoke do a grounded blocked teleport is because of KILL chip damage! whether EX or regular.....so seriously, people even comparing them both proves they know no jack shit and they are trying to STILL come up with a reason to JUSTIFY the nerf of elbow dash. You guys reached a point where you bring a non related particle to the subject just because you ran out of idea's on PROVING dash needs to be nerfed :S

Smoke teleport:

-One of the fastest wake up in the game. Even someone like kenshi cannot OTG/Oki or anti wake up with either TKS or EX RK on wake up :S. so opponent doing a stupid anti wake up will lead to smoke eating a teleport!

-after combos or even after teleport on hit. SMoke has a Free teleport to Change SIDES!! (the same effect like reptile elbow dash were people cry about). not only that, he's completely offensive!! smoke is way better offense character than reptile due to his VERY fast target combos and pokes!

-A complete safe IA Teleport!! only way to punish is NEVER on reaction (unlike reptile). this requires pre reading/ prediction. this is BS! smoke can IA teleport that avoid opponent block due to the hight, so fast that it's Really hard to punish on reaction (impossible online actually as well), as well as puts smoke on Complete OFFENSE MODE SAFELY!

-Amazing Follow up Anti Air and for godsake anti Air projectile (Kitana and Kabal)

......so seriously, dont bring weird comparison and then say why not compare it to Elbow dash....it doesnt work. and it's not gonna work!
Elbow dash for reptile is EXACTLY like NW SHOULDER DASH!! yet people dont cry about shoulders, while NW EX shoulder is AMAZING and completely safe on pressure....the only down under is that, the active frame to punish regular NW shoulders sustains tell the frame ends, while reptile active frame of hit is so fast making it harder to stuff in, also Reptile recovers faster. Other than that, then EX NW shoulders is more superb than any of reptiles dashes and CAN BE USED WITH THE SAME EXACT PURPOSES (safe on block and safe on escape)

 

[xxteefxx]

"Hardwire, first off i cant find the thread you made...so apparently it was deleted by mod. Secondly, no, that wasnt your main concern. If i remember correctly, it was you not being able to escape on wake up! so it wasnt about the TELEPORT AT ALL!! it was about Smoke fog out/ or in (b,f+3 or f,b+3)....So please! again, dont change your words and come up with an excuse just to justify your self or prove either a petty or any sort of childish act....by means, take it like a man :S. people in here read and has memory, dont drag your reputation lower than it can reach!!"

I posted this and i removed it from the post by edit. Just brought it up to clarify
I apologize hardwire, i though you were talkin about your smoke thread not your stated question here....srry for miss understanding*

 

[hardwire]

aghh...

Hardwire, first off i cant find the thread you made...so apparently it was deleted by mod. Secondly, no, that wasnt your main concern. If i remember correctly, it was you not being able to escape on wake up! so it wasnt about the TELEPORT AT ALL!! it was about Smoke fog out/ or in (b,f+3 or f,b+3)....So please! again, dont change your words and come up with an excuse just to justify your self or prove either a petty or any sort of childish act....by means, take it like a man :S. people in here read and has memory, dont drag your reputation lower than it can reach!!

Now , into the serious stuff. Do people know that you can stop Elbow dash up to sweep distance by a poke or uppercut on initial starter if timed correctly? do u also know that from far away you can jump over NJP catch it ? do you also know that there are a LOT of special moves that beats Elbow dahs whether EX or not?
i can understand if people are sad that elbow dahs owns them if they Play with sheeva or stryker or baraka sometimes......but what about the other characters? and SMOKE? really? Smoke players?

the conversation changed into SMoke teleport on block is more punishable.....a player doing smoke teleport and it's blocked on ground , is AN IDIOT! cause seriously, the only way smoke do a grounded blocked teleport is because of KILL chip damage! whether EX or regular.....so seriously, people even comparing them both proves they know no jack shit and they are trying to STILL come up with a reason to JUSTIFY the nerf of elbow dash. You guys reached a point where you bring a non related particle to the subject just because you ran out of idea's on PROVING dash needs to be nerfed :S

Smoke teleport:

-One of the fastest wake up in the game. Even someone like kenshi cannot OTG/Oki or anti wake up with either TKS or EX RK on wake up :S. so opponent doing a stupid anti wake up will lead to smoke eating a teleport!

-after combos or even after teleport on hit. SMoke has a Free teleport to Change SIDES!! (the same effect like reptile elbow dash were people cry about). not only that, he's completely offensive!! smoke is way better offense character than reptile due to his VERY fast target combos and pokes!

-A complete safe IA Teleport!! only way to punish is NEVER on reaction (unlike reptile). this requires pre reading/ prediction. this is BS! smoke can IA teleport that avoid opponent block due to the hight, so fast that it's Really hard to punish on reaction (impossible online actually as well), as well as puts smoke on Complete OFFENSE MODE SAFELY!

-Amazing Follow up Anti Air and for godsake anti Air projectile (Kitana and Kabal)

......so seriously, dont bring weird comparison and then say why not compare it to Elbow dash....it doesnt work. and it's not gonna work!
Elbow dash for reptile is EXACTLY like NW SHOULDER DASH!! yet people dont cry about shoulders, while NW EX shoulder is AMAZING and completely safe on pressure....the only down under is that, the active frame to punish regular NW shoulders sustains tell the frame ends, while reptile active frame of hit is so fast making it harder to stuff in, also Reptile recovers faster. Other than that, then EX NW shoulders is more superb than any of reptiles dashes and CAN BE USED WITH THE SAME EXACT PURPOSES (safe on block and safe on escape)

ok 2 different things here bud read farther back in the reptile thread you will see ive been talking about reptile a lot longer then any thing ive said about smoke
so re read what i was saying
the thing i was trying to say was if smokes tp punch was not as punishable as it is it would be very very broken correct
so why is that the case for smoke but not reptile considering he can spam it with relative safety (menaing he can get poke punished but only select fighters can fc him)


also just let it die already seriously there is no need to bring it up again things were said against me and yes i did act like a douch in my retaliation ok i was in the wrong now lets just drop it.

 

[xxteefxx]

sure. But without any offense. i am actually tryin to answer any comparison or questions/reason on why the nerf is not needed. maybe when people tone it down and stop flamming, or being dis respectful or cursing, i shall respond without being aggressive.

so ya, discussion is still on if anyone want to state anything as long as it's in a decent civilized manner.

 

[Levaranoia]

ok 2 different things here bud read farther back in the reptile thread you will see ive been talking about reptile a lot longer then any thing ive said about smoke
so re read what i was saying
the thing i was trying to say was if smokes tp punch was not as punishable as it is it would be very very broken correct
so why is that the case for smoke but not reptile considering he can spam it with relative safety (menaing he can get poke punished but only select fighters can fc him)


also just let it die already seriously there is no need to bring it up again things were said against me and yes i did act like a douch in my retaliation ok i was in the wrong now lets just drop it.

Well reasons that his teleport is so punishable is because it's a super fast punisher that can punish a person who does throws something out on the other side of the screen. It also has tracking properties on it and can be done in the air as well. It can also be comboed into off of a juggle. It is also guaranteed chip and is guaranteed damage if done while both are in the air.

 

[xxteefxx]

Omg, i kept on typing and typing and then i lost it all :S...lame. Anyways
you said
"the thing i was trying to say was if smokes tp punch was not as punishable as it is it would be very very broken correct
so why is that the case for smoke but not reptile considering he can spam it with relative safety (menaing he can get poke punished but only select fighters can fc him)"

lets break it down.

If smokes TP punch wasnt punishable or hard to punish on block, then seriously Smoke will not just be Broken, be he will be the new Kung Lao! it will be the best move in the game as well as best character in the game.

now, who told you TP is not spammable O_O!!? he DOES spam Air TP. smoke without Air TP is NOTHING! the sole source of smoke's strength is his Air control with TP....so seriously, what you're talking about. Let me tell you some stuff you might find interesting

Reasons or points of what TP can do:

1-Amazing Air control with Air TP. It shuts down any jump ins or any reckless aimless jumps in general. this makes Smoke in full control of air.

2-Hmm TP can be used exactly like dash as maneuvering move :S. You can go under jumpers with either Ground or air TP and change to the other side. After knock down combos you can IA teleport or regular ground teleport to change side SAFELY! followed by a complete Full safe pressure and mind game. for godsake if you timed it correctly, you can land before opponent wake up from a roll on the other side!! making smoke completely safe to be aggressive and offensive EVEN after roll....who else can do that in the game except few like Kenshi's TKS okizeme?
an example: smoke can go under sonya's jump in and change sides with ground TP, and not only that, but if sonya tried to dive kick quick then smoke will land on the other side faster and can BLOCK her dive kick. leading to a severe punish favored smoke.

3-IA TP is Amazing for frame trap or air control after guard pressure. Smoke is excellent on pressure due to his very safe and fast TC's and Pokes. Add to that, the option of Jump in p or K followed by TP. if the air TP hit, you can re teleport on the ground AGAIN completely safe (whiffing), and re pressure opponent. which lead to another pressure mix ups and guessing.
so not just the options of either 3,d+1,2 ~ throw, or 3,d+1 mix ups pokes, or b+2,3~ smoke bomb, or a simple sweep. You can add an extra one that COUNTERS jump aways. hence making smoke completely aggressive and Very easily rewarding. not only that, but really, after air hit TP you can ground teleport whiff safely to confuse and keep pressure on opponent after wards :S

4-IA TP is one of the best in the game! if your talking about having hard time punishing reptiles elbow dahs on block, then it's impossible to counter IATP in such case :S. IATP if timed correctly, it will always WHIFF due to the hight/hit box of opponent EVEN ON STANDING BLOCK. This will give smoke complete free time to land on the ground safely without being punished! not only that, if opponent crouched the hitbox is lower...in such case SMOKE is completely Free to safely follow up with TC's and poke due to the fast frame recovery. this is also character specific , works on everyone with the same hitbox except few which requires hieght difference (E.G kabal and sheeva only).
To be honest, this is really OP....it's one of the main reasons why smoke excels at being offensive.
NOTE: this is even when opponent is blocking. By means it doesnt even touch opponent due to the height of the IA TP...and so, smoke is free to spam it if done correctly :S

5-Complete air domination even against Air projectiles (Example, kabal, lui, and kitana)

6-EX TP can be used EXACTLY like reptiles dash as anti frame traps, strings...etc. due to fast starter and invincibility on initial frame. also EX TP is not stuffable, hence not a single anti wake up or normals can catch SMokes EX TELEPORT (unlike scorpion or ermac....exclude ermac cause his TP is bad compared to smoke and scorpion)

7-EX TP is a good Wake up game when used correctly.

8-TP (air or ground) Anti Ground projectile and far away zoner game

9-IN GENERAL, if opponent crouching, Teleport is completely safe afterward to manuever, pressure or even block.

DISADVANTAGE:
1- ground TP is punishable on block
as a High level play: any smoke who does/spam ground TP means he's completely careless/ taking risk and tryin to make a reading/prediction, or chiping damage to kill opponent. Any other than that, there's not a single reason why players should do Ground TP, and in that case , this player needs to hit up the lab more often!



Now about dash and the problems with Reptile Elbow dash:

1-Without it reptile cannot move an inch! reptile already have VERY hard time against far zoners due to the ability of not being able to approach easily. unlike kabal, reptile Elbow dash travel a certain distance and not controllable. Reptile has already the WORST regular dash in the game. it's so hard for reptile to approach opponent without the use of elbow dash multiple times

2-Very punishable on block!

3-Regular elbow dash is Stuffable from close up to sweep distance (max)on frame starter by pokes and fast normals

4-EX elbow dahs and REGULAR are both punishable by a LOT! and i mean a lot of special moves (Example, KUNG Spins, Kenshi's RK, kabals Saws, ermac force and TK, Raidens torpedo....many many specials to count). EX Elbow dash is punishable on block as well

5-NOT A WAKE UP MOVE! CPU does it on practice mode as a wake up, but it's NOT! it's apparently a bug with the practice mode. reptile regular dash or EX are not a wake up moves......try them your self

6-NEVER a reliable source to anti Far away zoners. Hince the problem of approaching, EVEN with Elbow dash still exists.

Advantages:

1-Fast maneuvering with Elbow dash due to lack of regular dash
2-Can confuse opponent on wake up by changing side (WHICH IS NOT EVEN a biggie because reptile offensive without Oki FB's doesnt have a lot of reps after a successful block of a string :s )...and that due to his nature of his target Combos.
3-A part of his basic Bnb ." If they played with the dash frame times, his main BNB is gone! making reptile useless in such case....seriously"
4-Anti reckless frame trap , reckless block string ...etc. Though same can be said about 70% of all special moves :S so it's not even a valid mention (Kung lao can SPin, Kenshi Can EX RK or any of his armor, jade can Armor matigate, NW can shoulder or EX Hatchet.....ETC)
5-Escapes Jump ins and corss overs when timed correctly. Reptile DOESNT have a good defense due to a lot of reason, and most important of them all are his slow pokes and target Combos...so seriously without dash, reptile will eat INFINITE number of block strings by the whole cast! and simply wont do anything about them but to leave your stick and pray to god that ur opponent do something stupid so u can escape!

so seriously....you do the math and see what fair. if you think Smoke TP is even comparable to reptiles Dash, then seriously i would beg you to consider the fact of NERFING smokes IA TP! cause it's way better tool than reptiles Elbow dash if you want to compare them (though this is something, and elbow dash is the opposite....one is ground, which is reptile dash,and the other one is full air control and semi ground , which is smokes TP)

people has to consider bigger issues than small reasons on nerfing something that THEY cannot react on due to their own Skills problems... ..MK9 is starting to be a high level play game! this is not the old crap you used to play by Midway! this is advanced! so wake up people, start enhancing your game and stepping up your level to an advanced one.

their are a lot of stuff that need to be fixed first in the game, seriously some character need to be toned DOWN first and others need to be BUFFED! so seriously, picking on elbow dash proves that the players in here is in SERIOUS need to enhance their game....if anyone here new to fighting game scene, then try to learn and adapt because crying wont get you anywhere. If your not new but not into other fighting games beside MK bracket, then seriously your in deep Trouble! because MK9 is a whole different level.

 

[ZeroEffect]

Now , into the serious stuff. Do people know that you can stop Elbow dash up to sweep distance by a poke or uppercut on initial starter if timed correctly? do u also know that from far away you can jump over NJP catch it ? do you also know that there are a LOT of special moves that beats Elbow dash whether EX or not?

Poking him out on startup? I've gotten this to work maybe once in every 12 tries. It does work, but seriously, how often do you think this will happen in an intense match? And more importantly, how useful can it be for a non-Kung Lao character? Again, you have to be WAITING for the dash to make this kind of thing work, and if you're not using KL spin, you're only rewarded with 2/3% damage before having to face the dash threat again. If you play with that much caution and respect for the dash, you've already lost the match.

The biggest problem I have with a lot of people on these boards in regards to this game, is that it seems as though people break this game down like it runs in slow motion. Not just with reptile dash, but with other moves as well. I understand things take practice, but people can only truly react to things but so fast.

Also, the thing with NW shoulder. It's duckable. You know when to punish after you've ducked it. Sure you have to let go of block, but you at least know when to act. Some characters can just low poke him to get under the attack. (Maybe all chars, I dunno.)

 

[xxteefxx]

no no no no no....no no lol. alright, hey again zero lol. alright, lets break this down again

Poking him out on startup? I've gotten this to work maybe once in every 12 tries. It does work, but seriously, how often do you think this will happen in an intense match? And more importantly, how useful can it be for a non-Kung Lao character?

you left all my reasonable reasons on why Elbow dash doesnt require nerf and you stumble upon the EXTRA input? dude....in the same post i did, i mentioned atLEAST 5 problems of elbow dash, just in the post you commented on. If you even went back through out pages or different thread, u will find EVEN MORE! and more when it comes to character specific and how or what to do against elbow dash.

i am not saying this is the way to beat dash! i am stating an extra POINT just in case people didnt know.

I must tell you, i dont understand HOW you as a mileena player might have massive problem against reptile elbow dash. Mileena is a non Kung lao, correct? Mileena should not HAVE a problem at all against reptile due to a lot of reasons. i can mention all of them if your interested and want to read them.

Again, you have to be WAITING for the dash to make this kind of thing work, and if you're not using KL spin, you're only rewarded with 2/3% damage before having to face the dash threat again. If you play with that much caution and respect for the dash, you've already lost the match.

errr....how do we play against any other character in MK9? Kung lao or not, it's all baiting and predicting on high level game play. For example Mileena. Why would i rush her on wake up when she can escape EASILY when i am not following my RISKY anti wake up with a force ball Okizeme? it's because i am gambling, taking a risk depending ON what move you will do! so it's either i will get close and block, or keep the pressure up to shut you down from thinking.
so your basically saying, i cannot play rushing crazy or safely because i will have to be aware of a certain move....well yes? lol. and this is a basic thing in EVERY fighting game? Soul calibur, Street fighter, guilty gear, tekken.....etc

it's not as if elbow dash not PUNISHABLE AS WELL!! with mileena you can Roll ball into an atleast damage of 30% on block! you can throw, and you can even UPPERCUT! lol....so how is that not enough?

I can say the same exact concept you mentioned on every character in the game! i can say i cannot rush mileena freely because she can easily Ballroll hit my attacks (whether ex or not), or simply EX Teleport or even regular...and MY GOD when ex teleport hit Reptile will eat a massive mix ups afterward , which makes it even harder on reptile to breath! it's not enough that mil successfully control zone and far away, but she's amazing at close too.....so why your saying that , based on logic of an elbow dash threat, while if you blocked it and punished me good! it will make me think more than twice before i go reckless and risking my life to do another elbow dash?

i dont think the point you mentioned is even valid toward SPECIFICALLY toward reptile...it's very general and can be said against ALL THE CAST! the game is not made to be blindly doing the same tactic over and over! their will always be tweeks inside that ruin the routine and rotations making you or opponent think outside the box and adapt to one another , PROVING who will win at the end....this is fighting game man lol

The biggest problem I have with a lot of people on these boards in regards to this game, is that it seems as though people break this game down like it runs in slow motion. Not just with reptile dash, but with other moves as well. I understand things take practice, but people can only truly react to things but so fast.

i dont recall that i saw this, or even went that biased on stating facts depending on COMPLETELY absurd reaction. i was talkin about reactions i do on regular bases. I fight a lot of reptile, and i play one. i know how they think, react , and i know how to punish. i dont recall that i stated a fact that can be un logical to use or that it's impossible....the poking thing, i mentioned that because it's an extra point! as well as the jump over and NJP punish...not only that, even if they are WAY biased, they happen! and those two example, are aside form the regular way of punishing regular block elbow dash.

it seems that not just you zero, but a lot of other people, cannot get the fact that reptile Movement, defense and OFFENSE are all based on elbow dash....you stated in the other thread that if they removed the low hat stagger or offensive block string from kung lao, then kung lao will be useless in that case, and that it's un called for or unfair.....it's the same exact concept for reptile :S lol....so why not Kung lao, and yes for doing something like that to reptile? lol
while not only that, other characters has a lot of escape, offensive tools (example Cage , kung, Raiden, Mil, kitana, kabal, shang, sonya...etc) and in general, lots of tool...reptile main tool is Elbow dash, anything beside that is really nothing :S ..... REALLY nothing! what? i shall do EX okizeme FB? wihtout elbow dash it's useless lol.....without elbow dash Reptile cannot even do anything after hit cr+4 acid hand lol....Without elbow dash, i cannot even approach zoners or in general run away character..reptile MAIN and most important tool IS elbow dash, and yet it's still punishable

Also, the thing with NW shoulder. It's duckable. You know when to punish after you've ducked it. Sure you have to let go of block, but you at least know when to act. Some characters can just low poke him to get under the attack. (Maybe all chars, I dunno.)

i am glad you brought this up man haha. cause i wrote stuff bout it, but sadly didnt make it here due to Internet disconnection lol.
About NW shoulders. OHH yes you can duck under Regular Shoulders, and EX you can duck under the first hit as well.....but do you know how POWERFUL ex shoulder is? do you know how powerful NW is? one of the core reason why NW is really amazing chars and in my opinion one of the top tier is because of:

-Shoulder maneuvering in general
-Reflect
-f+3,1
-his unblockable traps , combo ability, Anti air, Anti wake up, reflect and frame traps
-Fastest uppercut, and very fast Target combos.
-Very fast maneuver in general (dashes, dash cancel, and back dash)
--EX shoulders

here're a quick diffrence between NW shoulde and reps dashr :
-Regular dash is not as strong as reptile regular, though it's safe on block due to stagger and push back
-can be used in strings
-Stuffable on initial start up, and frame ender. By means if you timed you low attack wrong, NW will bash with his shoulder through you

-HIS EX SHOULDER IS AMAZING! armor mitigation, completely safe on block and non punishable.
-used as anti wake up and NW WAKE UP game (unlike reptile dash)
-NW doesnt even need X ray! due to the fact it's a short distance, doesnt auto correct on jump (like for example, ERMAC x ray), and in general waste of meter except in few situation. also it's a hit not a grab. i am mentioning this, because EVeRY NW player would luv to save for EX shoulders, because it's superb! the same concept applies on reptiles FB. i, with reptile, in basically 80% of the matchups will waste my meter on FB's instead of doing an X ray..whether for breaking or FB's. same concept for NW
-EX can be used as anti block string, frame traps....etc. and if escaped by a jump (which means NW didnt time the shoulder correctly, because it DOES catch jumpers, whether in or out from cross over) it puts NW to complete safety far away....exactly like reptiles Elbow dash :S

so when comparing a move to another, you cant just take one move and compare it to another character move without having a depth of HOW ,where or when to use the move. NW shoulders are useful, BUT! not his only tool :S god! his f+3,1 is the fastest in the game! and it can OTG as well (like lui kang's b+3,2,1)....

reptile, basic and main tool is Elbow dash, it's everything for reptile....unlike NW, he doesnt Solely depend on Shoulder dash.

and on top of that, it's PUNISHABLE on reaction :S
PS: you stated " "Also, the thing with NW shoulder. It's duckable. You know when to punish after you've ducked it. Sure you have to let go of block, but you at least know when to act"
why isnt it the same case/concept on predicting elbow dash, block it and punish it? ..... your stating a complete prediction whether on offensive or Defensive with something like Ducking without blocking. IT's EVEN more risky than block. being completely Neutral, leaving the block button to punish a PREDICTED SHOULDER DASH from NW....what is riskier? punishing elbow dash after wards, or a complete MIND reading prediction and ducking NW shoulders :S?
atleast you will be safe against reptile, but for NW , YOU choose 1 option to counter one move only from a LOT of options potential and mix ups that NW can provide upon such situation...

dont base anything online if you do Zero....online hinders a lot of things, and most importantly, frame lag / requiration of early frame reaction. online is not a judge AT ALL!

but anyways, thnx for posting man. If you didnt understand anything, please tell me. If you need more clarification or examples, please hit me up!
take it easy

 

[ZeroEffect]

As stated in the other thread, there's no hostility between us, or between me and the other rep players, but I think you misunderstood my point on waiting for the dash. But I'll try to keep this brief.

There's a difference between predicting something, and waiting for it. Predicting is, as you said, taking a gamble that your opponent will do a certain move at a certain time in the match. You must be willing to do this in order to play at high level, and on that I agree with you. Waiting for it is saying "I'm in range, I know they will throw this move out sometime". and you prepare your options based around that move. Waiting is worst case scenario in a match, because if your opponent doesn't throw this move out while you're waiting for it, you are open to other options in the meantime, that's all.

True, Mileena can get free rolls on blocked dash. But you must be 100% on the money. If not, you are gonna get it blocked and combo punished. I'm not saying to nerf the dash heavily, because it is a central part of the character. It doesn't even need loads of frames to punish, just give it a more visible or audible cue when it's ok to punish, and give a bit of cooldown on whiff. Mileena's roll, for example, has a cooldown on whiff before she can use another one. (she can throw or do another attack). It's barely noticeable, but it's there, and that's how I feel reptile's should be on whiff. But that's it. I don't think it needs much else that that.

And yes, NW F3 is stupidly good. It think it OTGs as well....

 

[Raiman]

Heres what i think would be perfect for dash, since no reptile in here can handle more recovery time(no kung lao player thought the spin needed it either). Anyway,

1. Just make the block stun animation more noticable, he can still block just as fast but his body leans farther back or something.

2. Keep dash as it is but make the acid hand not an over head (just waiting for the furious reptiles now). But that hand / slide mix up is so damn good, and the acid hand is perfectly safe on block. Even if they block the acid hand ducking your still not getting punished.

3. Keep the dash and over head acid hand as is, but give the acid hand -6 frames on block, with no push back. Even Kung Laos overhead hat / low hat mix can be punished on either move, -6 frames on a blocked low hat is still better than a completely safe low hat am i right? Could you Reptiles not hanle only being punished by a little down poke from most characters?

 

[xxteefxx]

As stated in the other thread, there's no hostility between us, or between me and the other rep players, but I think you misunderstood my point on waiting for the dash. But I'll try to keep this brief.

There's a difference between predicting something, and waiting for it. Predicting is, as you said, taking a gamble that your opponent will do a certain move at a certain time in the match. You must be willing to do this in order to play at high level, and on that I agree with you. Waiting for it is saying "I'm in range, I know they will throw this move out sometime". and you prepare your options based around that move. Waiting is worst case scenario in a match, because if your opponent doesn't throw this move out while you're waiting for it, you are open to other options in the meantime, that's all.

True, Mileena can get free rolls on blocked dash. But you must be 100% on the money. If not, you are gonna get it blocked and combo punished. I'm not saying to nerf the dash heavily, because it is a central part of the character. It doesn't even need loads of frames to punish, just give it a more visible or audible cue when it's ok to punish, and give a bit of cooldown on whiff. Mileena's roll, for example, has a cooldown on whiff before she can use another one. (she can throw or do another attack). It's barely noticeable, but it's there, and that's how I feel reptile's should be on whiff. But that's it. I don't think it needs much else that that.

And yes, NW F3 is stupidly good. It think it OTGs as well....

zack, why do you think there are hostility in my post man lol...dude i luv you as well as everyone here lol...if you felt it that way, i really didnt mean it , AT ALL! lol...i am totally serious. not just to you, but to everyone else as well!

i agree with you in that case. and i must tell you this, such a nerf of showing the DASH block is BLOCKED and punished, i am okay with it....why? because seriously it wont hurt reptile as much. it alrdy does hurt him as we speak, so it wont benefit that much. as well as if blocked and you didnt punish correctly, i dont have MANY options to do afterwards at all :S lol

about the waiting. hmmm, i can agree and dis agree actually. because there are a lot of scenarios that every character has that can put opponent into this waiting case. dont forget, fighting game is not just for one person to spread the tactic heavily without brain use. it's a co operation of mind games between both sides. for example, mileena doing sai's form max distance, will shut reptile from gettin closer. it's not just WAITING for me, it's more of i have to do something or else i am STUCK!
if i did nothing in my place, it;s a huge dis advantage to me. EX teleport will get me easy. Sai's built meter as well....so i cannot leave you doin that. instead, i try to approach slowly, keepin my eye on your SAI's and WHAT you can afford after wards, whether it's teleport, roll, jump in....etc lol
so yes i agree with such a fact, but it goes with every char and both sides of the players ya know...it can be said when opponent has meter for x ray too. goin risky is a no no! that means i will be completely safe and waiting for opponent to either, break, waste an ex meter or use the x ray.

but ya anyways....again man, i dont know why you think i am hostile...i swear i am not lol. i dont take anything offensive or be un civilized discusser/ dis respectful for no reason lol ...i respect everyone no matter what.

but again, thnx for posting man...keep em coming and dont be a stranger. also bout the NW f+3, yes it does OTG i hate this so much i swear lol....though NW is aint a prob to reptile to be honest, in fact, NW worst match up is US! reptile players lol

 

[xxteefxx]

Heres what i think would be perfect for dash, since no reptile in here can handle more recovery time(no kung lao player thought the spin needed it either). Anyway, just make the block stun animation more noticable, he can still block just as fast but his body leans farther back or something.

Or keep dash as it is but make the acid hand not an over head (just waiting for the furious reptiles now). But that hand / slide mix up is so damn good, and the acid hand is perfectly safe on block. Even if they block the acid hand ducking your still not getting punished. Even Kung Laos hat overhead / low hat mix can be punished for either move, -6 frames on block is still better than a completely safe low hat am i right?

Hell keep the dash and over head acid hand as is, but give the acid -6 frames on block, i'll even take that.

Acid hand being not med?? no no...no no no no.....no no again lol

if acid hand is not med, you simply made reptile COMPLETELY useless in offensive as well. Reptile doesnt have many mix ups at all except either high or Low! so it's a guess of two options. not only that, his TC's are HORRIBLE slow starter compared to a lot of other TC's in the game, doesnt stagger, and only goes for 1 rep whether on hit or block.
saying acid hand being med is exactly like saying, kenshi's TKS being med as well. simply it will crush both offensive pressure ...while both, are not even that GREAT compared to a lot of char in the roaster (Sonya, Shang, Kabal, Smoke,Kitana, Mil...etc)

even the FB oki, opponent can escape after one rep of either 3,2,1 or cr+4. any throw attempt will break the oki. beside that, it's all about either ground attacks of 3,2,1 or cr+4, or a njp...which is in general a gamble.

if Acid hand is not med, the all his combos will be block low at the end! making reptile completely useless....for godsake, Smoke will be a better mix uper than reptile due to his fast Sweep.

 

[ZeroEffect]

zack, why do you think there are hostility in my post man lol...dude i luv you as well as everyone here lol...if you felt it that way, i really didnt mean it , AT ALL! lol...i am totally serious. not just to you, but to everyone else as well!

I posted this before you responded in the other thread. Actually having two threads at the same time is harder to keep up with, so I'll probably just stick to this one from now on.

 

[THTB]

well now hold on it can be hit by projectiles (raidin shuts it down very well) and you can be kicked out of it (if they are lucky granted)

Point being, it's an entirely different move that has a much different use than elbow. It's like comparing apples to pancakes. :/

 

[TrickyNick]

Point being, it's an entirely different move that has a much different use than elbow. It's like comparing apples to pancakes. :/

lol I prefer pancakes

 

[THTB]

lol I prefer pancakes

Yeah, pancakes over apples, but when it comes to pears, Idk, that'd be a toughy.

/offtopicness

 

[TrickyNick]

Yeah, pancakes over apples, but when it comes to pears, Idk, that'd be a toughy.

/offtopicness

No man pancakes for sure. Only fruit that stands a chance against pancakes is peaches.

 

[Raiman]

Acid hand being not med?? no no...no no no no.....no no again lol

if acid hand is not med, you simply made reptile COMPLETELY useless in offensive as well. Reptile doesnt have many mix ups at all except either high or Low! so it's a guess of two options. not only that, his TC's are HORRIBLE slow starter compared to a lot of other TC's in the game, doesnt stagger, and only goes for 1 rep whether on hit or block.
saying acid hand being med is exactly like saying, kenshi's TKS being med as well. simply it will crush both offensive pressure ...while both, are not even that GREAT compared to a lot of char in the roaster (Sonya, Shang, Kabal, Smoke,Kitana, Mil...etc)

even the FB oki, opponent can escape after one rep of either 3,2,1 or cr+4. any throw attempt will break the oki. beside that, it's all about either ground attacks of 3,2,1 or cr+4, or a njp...which is in general a gamble.

if Acid hand is not med, the all his combos will be block low at the end! making reptile completely useless....for godsake, Smoke will be a better mix uper than reptile due to his fast Sweep.

Ok fair enough, but what about my no.1 and no.3?

 

[Killphil]

All I can say is punishing the dash is easier said than done. I don't care about reptile's situation with his "unfair" dash, but the whole thing about trying to stop it with a poke or sweep is sound, but we're not characters from fist of the north star. There is no way you can tell when reptile is going to do a dash. You hear the noise, and you either get hit or are holding block. Not even pros would be stopping it with pokes. I've been meaning to ask about something quite specific about this dash anyway. It will only hit someone if they are on the ground correct? I want to test out ermac's up+4 against reptile's dash. If what I've heard about up+4 is correct and my own presumption on the elbow dash is true than it should beat out the dash. But only if it only hits you when you're on the ground.

 

[THTB]

Any attack that makes the user airborne will be capable of stuffing elbow. Ermac u4, Quan Chi u3, Mileena u4, Sindel b2, Jade b2, Reptile f3/b4...so on and so forth. These moves also will avoid slide, so on wakeup, Reptile will have tons of trouble using wakeup attacks if they are using meaty hop attacks to deal with it.

This is actually a weakness of Reptile NO ONE is using outside of actual Reptile players. If you have a hopping attack that's good, Reptile is forced to block.