Match-up Discussion Hawkgirl Matchup Discussion

[Tiger Wong]

I'm about thisclose to either maining MMH or cursing him. I just need some matchup experience I think.

But so far he's another guy who has one move that shuts down all of her flight shit in that teleport punch. Oh. And he can do it in the air too. Yaaaaaaaaaay! Another character who HG can't fly at all against.

 

[nuttyAFA]

About MU with WW......

- How the hell is she gonna parry air straight mace toss? Do you know what you're talking about?
- She can parry the mace toss and block the MB? Good. HG is at + 4 if you block the MB of an air MT and +15 off a ground one.
- Who in their right mind would try to dive kick as an approach? Yeah, it's foolish, because only a moron would do it. The only time to really do it is when you properly place it to hit the opponentswaist and lower so it's safe.
- WW's D2 beats HG dive kick? Yeah, if HG does it from the top of the screen and is ready for it. Good luck beat it after a MC MB~trait or after a d1. Honestly, WW's D2 is really beating HG's retarded ass jump and her being at the top of the scren when she does the dive kick more than she's beating her actual dive kick.
- And speaking of air stuff...... good luck trying to do all that air dashing stuff around HG's D2. It's probably the 2nd best in the game after Aquaman's D2.
- IADG is like -15 or more on block. What's she gonna do? Do it on reaction to seeing an MC? Good luck with that.
- Lasso spin is only good for a wakeup. And HG has got the 3~WE/3MC tech to totally shit on that. And it's -9. HG can punish that.
- WW's corner game is better than HG's. So? Is this supposed to mean anything? HG's got a goopd corner game too. Damn near everybody has a good corner game. What is that statement supposed to mean. When you're in the corner vs HG do you say to yourself.......

"Whew! Good thing WW has a better corner game than HG. Knowing this will surely get me out of the corner.

(BTW, HG can MC out of a B2 on wakeup in the corner. WW has to change her timing so it hits her on the way up. Not when she usually does it.)

It's 5-5. Maybe even 5.5-4.5. Even if you wanna say its 6-4 WW favor, it's fine because the MU can go either way. WW can deal more damage than HG mid screen. Duh. So does nearly the entire roster. You wanna talk life leads? WW sucks with the life lead unless she's in SS. And vs HG, WW wouldn't want to go there. B2 is a great move. But she has to throw it out early to beat MC. It's not like she can react to it and then B2 it. She's better off doing neutral/backward jumps and punishing the whiff or doing random D3s and trying to whiff punish.

She can't control the matchup with just her B2, D2, and Lasso Parry. That's crazy talk. Her B2 is not Lantern's Might. THAT move can control HG.
Batgirl's Smoke Bomb can control HG.

jesus, so hostile and making huge assumptions. i mentioned the divekick only because there are people who think its really good as some stupid ambiguous crossup. it was an incredibly brief mention. and yet you guys keep bringing it up as though I said it was some focal point of her gameplan.

i also never brought up IADG as some great WW move that blows HG up, so why it keeps getting repeated that it is punishable on block is confusing me, like no shit. i dont even think i mentioned the move lol

i meant low to the ground straight mace toss can be parried. why would WW be jumping to begin with from a distance you can fire of straight mace toss?

they both have great d2, lets just agree that neither character should be jumping on the other one, though at least WW has an air dash (i wish HG did)

are you gonna meterburn the mace toss every time? how does she suck with the life lead in lasso stance? what a dumb thing to say. umm well i can meter burn mace toss and then see if she is dumb enough to hit a button? oh she isnt? let me try my b2 "mixup". lol come on.

her b2 is unpunishable, lantern's might is. in both cases you shouldnt be in the air. her combo options off b2 are basically non existent mid screen but even just b2,3 knocks the opponent a large distance and allows ww to go on the offensive and possibly be near the corner

WE the 3,3 is a great tool for HG to have, and does help the matchup a lot since there is now risk for the WW player instead of being at +2, but you still need to guess correctly that the low is coming and the string nets her like 40%+ i believe

her shield stance is also not useless in this matchup. yea if you are in neutral position and she just switches to that and lets you fly, then that is dumb. but off a knockdown she can go sword and pressure you. +9 on block shield bash (mb)? little bit better then +4 shoulder dont you think? 6 frame d1 that is + on block and almost as far reaching as HG d1? players just dont use this stance enough, it needs to be fleshed out

i never said the match is super stacked, but its not an even matchup, its simple math. hawkgirl is extremely limited without burning meter to put herself close for a chance at landing some hits and putting WW in the corner. A patient WW who knows the matchup is not gonna get pushed around here, eventually the fact she can pile on more damage midscreen AND put you in the corner faster is gonna come into play

 

[Konqrr]

I so wish there was an instant air mace toss...

There is

 

[EMPRESS_SunFire]

jesus, so hostile and making huge assumptions. i mentioned the divekick only because there are people who think its really good as some stupid ambiguous crossup. it was an incredibly brief mention. and yet you guys keep bringing it up as though I said it was some focal point of her gameplan.

i also never brought up IADG as some great WW move that blows HG up, so why it keeps getting repeated that it is punishable on block is confusing me, like no shit. i dont even think i mentioned the move.
i meant low to the ground straight mace toss can be parried. why would WW be jumping to begin with from a distance you can fire of straight mace toss?

they both have great d2, lets just agree that neither character should be jumping on the other one, though at least WW has an air dash (i wish HG did)

are you gonna meterburn the mace toss every time? how does she suck with the life lead in lasso stance? what a dumb thing to say. umm well i can meter burn mace toss and then see if she is dumb enough to hit a button? oh she isnt? let me try my b2 "mixup". lol come on.

her b2 is unpunishable, lantern's might is. in both cases you shouldnt be in the air. her combo options off b2 are basically non existent mid screen but even just b2,3 knocks the opponent a large distance and allows ww to go on the offensive and possibly be near the corner

WE the 3,3 is a great tool for HG to have, and does help the matchup a lot since there is now risk for the WW player instead of being at +2, but you still need to guess correctly that the low is coming and the string nets her like 40%+ i believe

her shield stance is also not useless in this matchup. yea if you are in neutral position and she just switches to that and lets you fly, then that is dumb. but off a knockdown she can go sword and pressure you. +9 on block shield bash (mb)? little bit better then +4 shoulder dont you think? 6 frame d1 that is + on block and almost as far reaching as HG d1? players just dont use this stance enough, it needs to be fleshed out

i never said the match is super stacked, but its not an even matchup, its simple math. hawkgirl is extremely limited without burning meter to put herself close for a chance at landing some hits and putting WW in the corner. A patient WW who knows the matchup is not gonna get pushed around here, eventually the fact she can pile on more damage midscreen AND put you in the corner faster is gonna come into play

This is what you said on your previous posts

* -her b2 completely shuts hawkgirl down on the ground. approaching her is extremely difficult as this move just beats everything. it even stuffs pretty much all wakeup options, this move is insane
-going to the air provides nothing here. her d2 is very very good, so trying to divekick as an approach is foolish. she can parry your mace tosses ON REACTION and then the best part is if you think you can mb shoulder to punish her, nope. she recovers so fast that not only will she ALWAYS be able to block it, she can actually hit d2 and get a punish on you for even thinking you could try that.
-she has air mobility and can do instant air demi goddess charge

* WW's hits behind her to such a ridiculous degree you cant be anywhere above her no matter what character.

* HG does not win full screen, she does not have better air control then WW.

 

[EMPRESS_SunFire]

This is 5-5 and i am personally not going to discuss this match up to be a 4-6

 

[nuttyAFA]

This is 5-5 and i am personally not going to discuss this match up to be a 4-6

you quoting me just proves that i didnt say what i didnt say? im confused why you did that

i mentioned air options once. she does not win full screen. you can parry down mace on reaction, ground mace on reaction, IA straight mace on reaction. yep that's what i said lol

 

[EMPRESS_SunFire]

you quoting me just proves that i didnt say what i didnt say? im confused why you did that

i mentioned air options once. she does not win full screen. you can parry down mace on reaction, ground mace on reaction, IA straight mace on reaction. yep that's what i said lol

And that makes Hawkgirl lose at full screen? Wonder Woman can't do anything either at full screen! And i quoted because of the air demigodess & dive kick points you mentioned

 

[nuttyAFA]

And that makes Hawkgirl lose at full screen? Wonder Woman can't do anything either at full screen! And i quoted because of the air demigodess & dive kick points you mentioned

neither one "wins" full screen, im just disputing the statement that HG does lol

 

[Tiger Wong]

jesus, so hostile and making huge assumptions. i mentioned the divekick only because there are people who think its really good as some stupid ambiguous crossup. it was an incredibly brief mention. and yet you guys keep bringing it up as though I said it was some focal point of her gameplan.

Am I not supposed to take you for what you said? Or am I supposed to assume you don't know what you're talking about when you say stupid shit?

i also never brought up IADG as some great WW move that blows HG up, so why it keeps getting repeated that it is punishable on block is confusing me, like no shit. i dont even think i mentioned the move lol

You did mention the move. You mentioned it blowing up her in the air. Which BTW, gets taken out by an air straight MT. Because no matter how "instant" the DG is, it's still got startup.

i meant low to the ground straight mace toss can be parried. why would WW be jumping to begin with from a distance you can fire of straight mace toss?

Gee, IDK. Maybe because there's no other way she can appraoch except air dashes and ground dashes?
And I suppose HG would be doing these low to the ground MTs to do.... what exactly? Oh yeah. Beat up IADGs.

they both have great d2, lets just agree that neither character should be jumping on the other one, though at least WW has an air dash

That's fine with me. Good lucking getting in then. Unless you think you can Lasso Parry MCs or WE3 on reaction.

are you gonna meterburn the mace toss every time? how does she suck with the life lead in lasso stance? what a dumb thing to say. umm well i can meter burn mace toss and then see if she is dumb enough to hit a button? oh she isnt? let me try my b2 "mixup". lol come on.

B22/B23 isn't a mixup. Only morons think it is. Unsurprisingly you added it into your first post like a HG would use it or even to suggest that it is a mixup.
If you don't hit a button, that's great. I'm not gonna go at you with B22/B23. I'm gonna do REAL mixups. I'm gonna do D1 to IAdive kick or D1 to sweep. I'm gonna do B22b1/B22~trait 2 and see if you can switch from blocking low to high fast enough. I'm gonna do B22~trait fly a little bit to the perfect spot where I do another dive kick that's safe and see if you're gonna press do D12 like lots of WW players do. I'm gonna D1~WE2 to see if you like pressing buttons after D1 or like blocking low. If you don't, I'll probably start grabbing after D1 or I may after the WE2 since it's +4 on block. Or I'll D1~WE3 and cross to the other side and see if you can switch blocking to the other side. And then I'll just grab you again after you block the WE3 because I'm -1 after it. Or I may D1 you again. Or I may sweep. Or F11~WE2 to see if you're gonna press a button. Or WE2 after the crossing WE3 to see if you're gonna block low again.

Yeah, HG doesn't have braindead, cornfed mixups like WWs B2/33. But HG can do work. It's just not like everybody else's dirt.

And she sucks with the life lead, because her keep away is just about as nonexistent as you can get for someone with projectiles. I mean damn...... her tiaras are - on hit. WW is a space control/rushdown character. She's gonna mix you and knock you down and try to get you in the corner so she can play her braindead 50/50 game off of a Lasso Grab-into-IAdivepunch-+6-if-you-block-or-crossup-with-it-and-combo shit.

her b2 is unpunishable, lantern's might is. in both cases you shouldnt be in the air. her combo options off b2 are basically non existent mid screen but even just b2,3 knocks the opponent a large distance and allows ww to go on the offensive and possibly be near the corner

I don't give a fuck about punishing B2. I want you try to do it so I can MC it while you're doing it. Because most WWs use B2 as a fishing move and as an AA for people that jump out of her D2 range. MC has more range than B2. And it's safe too. Oh, and if I MB it, I'm at +10. That's free pressure. The type of free pressure WW doesn't have vs HG. Of course, most WWs wouldn't like this so smart ones try to neutral jump and D3 randomly to bait it.

Yeah, Lantern's Might is punishable. But unlike WW's B2, Lantern's Might OWNS HG's entire movelist from midscreen. Unless I MC or WE at the perfect friggin time, I'm gonna get snatched out of the air for 40%+ braindead, super easy combo. And if I'm lucky enough, the GL player is good enough to get me in some too-quick-to-react wakeup bullshit where he can do his stupidly fast overhead into ANOTHER 40%+ combo or his B13 into another braindead easy 40%+ combo.

WE the 3,3 is a great tool for HG to have, and does help the matchup a lot since there is now risk for the WW player instead of being at +2, but you still need to guess correctly that the low is coming and the string nets her like 40%+ i believe

Yeah, yeah yeah. We all know about her braindead mixups into 40%+ damage. We all know her mid screen damage off those and random hits gives her an advantage over HG.

her shield stance is also not useless in this matchup. yea if you are in neutral position and she just switches to that and lets you fly, then that is dumb. but off a knockdown she can go sword and pressure you. +9 on block shield bash (mb)? little bit better then +4 shoulder dont you think? 6 frame d1 that is + on block and almost as far reaching as HG d1? players just dont use this stance enough, it needs to be fleshed out

SS is good and I like it a lot but it's a situational and a matchup dependent stance. You'll be praying to switch back to Lasso if I guess right. AB MB is +9 on block. D1 is +3 block. F4 is like +10 on block and moves her forward a lot. Her jump is really low but AWESOME for crossups with SS J2 after a blocked AB MB, a connected AB (no MB), or after a B21 connects.

So what happens if I push block you and then fly?

You'll be switching back to Lasso in no time. Because SS WW is basically Nightwing in Staff. They're in a lot of trouble vs HG after a push block.

i never said the match is super stacked, but its not an even matchup, its simple math. hawkgirl is extremely limited without burning meter to put herself close for a chance at landing some hits and putting WW in the corner. A patient WW who knows the matchup is not gonna get pushed around here, eventually the fact she can pile on more damage midscreen AND put you in the corner faster is gonna come into play

Here's the problem with all this.

You don't know the matchup. Undoubtedly, you've been playing crap HGs who use flight like it's going out of style, and do B22/B23 like it's a mixup. Occasionally they'll do a MC from mid screen and waste the MB with a B22/B23 after it's blocked. Oh, and they jump and do dive kicks from the top of the screen.

You wanna say the matcuhp is 6-4 WW, go ahead. Have fun with that.

 

[nuttyAFA]

i dont play WW at all, i play HG, so im not basing it on beating HG, but thanks for that. I never even talk about IADG as a smart approach tool at all, i think someone else said that. when i put "mixup" in quotes that means im pointing out it really isnt

Your just spewing all these HG tactics as if i dont know all of them lol. then you casually say well WW has brain dead shit. well, yes she does, what does that have to do with matchup advantage? she doesnt need some god like zoning game to keep a life lead, you just play footsies. sure MC is safe, but she is basically given a free b2 check as well as any other movement options she wishes to take.

if your opponent respects your d1 shenanigans thats great, but i think a lot of the time it's just people dont understand what's happening and the properties of WE and how to beat her stuff.

look if its 5-5, great, i hope so. but it sure as hell doesn't feel like it the more time goes on. but whatever, time will tell and hopefully some good HG and WW play will convince me of whatever the truth is

 

[Tiger Wong]

i dont play WW at all

Well I do. I use her a heck of a lot to try to counter HG's actual bad matchups (of which WW is not one of them)

she doesnt need some god like zoning game to keep a life lead, you just play footsies.

She doesn't even have a mediocre zone game. Her deal is to rush you down and break your guard and do big damage of her 50/50s. Maybe confuse you with some IAdashes and left/right mixups. Some like to play with her B1 because it's +3 on block. But her main deal is her braindead B2/33 shit into big time damage.

sure MC is safe, but she is basically given a free b2 check as well as any other movement options she wishes to take.

See here's the problem, B2 is a "free check" only if you're too scared to do anything. If you're too scared to challenge that B2 with a MC then you'll continue to think she owns the mid-range vs HG. But she doesn't. It's a challenge of patience, wills, sometimes, just plain luck.

And her "movement options" are really her dashes. And you need to start D2ing her as soon as she hits the air. Unless the guy likes to air dash forward and backward to bait a D2 and then they might air dive or air tiara you from 3/4 screen. This isn't really a strat for WW. It's just something to do to get you to stop D2ing her and to peck at you so you lose your cool.

if your opponent respects your d1 shenanigans thats great, but i think a lot of the time it's just people dont understand what's happening and the properties of WE and how to beat her stuff.

And it's YOUR JOB to MAKE THEM RESPECT HER IN-CLOSE GAME. HG doesn't have any braindead stuff that she can go to and say "this will get me 50% damage no matter how you defend". She has to work them over and break opponents down. She's a hit and run character. She can't use predictable 50/50s and STILL have it work out anyway because she has none.

It's almost like Doomsday. Doomdsay has like two friggin lows in his entire moveset. He's not gonna win on mixups alone. He has to bully you and do grabs and frame traps and catch you moving and make good reads.

 

[RunwayMafia]

Just played Theo's 6 hour old MMH...this will be a problematic MU...unlike WW.

 

[GreatDunn]

Sooo... did anyone else make a mudbaby in their pants, after seeing Zatanna and realising we're gonna be juggled for days?

 

[shaowebb]

Sooo... did anyone else make a mudbaby in their pants, after seeing Zatanna and realising we're gonna be juggled for days?

She cant use hat stance on us as its main tools seem to be the ground spark and low shang projectiles which look slow enough to dash past with Mace Charge. Its magic stance with the ball and port we'll have to worry about. Her AA potential seems good...could be a rough one to fight if you aren't aggressive enough.Im not certain what her wakeup game will be like given she's mainly projectiles and teleport...likely she'll resort to flamethrower on wakeup so I'll try for wing evade 3 go behind on day 1 in the lab.

She's going to be one to learn thats for certain.

 

[GreatDunn]

She cant use hat stance on us as its main tools seem to be the ground spark and low shang projectiles which look slow enough to dash past with Mace Charge. Its magic stance with the ball and port we'll have to worry about. Her AA potential seems good...could be a rough one to fight if you aren't aggressive enough.Im not certain what her wakeup game will be like given she's mainly projectiles and teleport...likely she'll resort to flamethrower on wakeup so I'll try for wing evade 3 go behind on day 1 in the lab.

She's going to be one to learn thats for certain.

So far, the only DLC that's given me fits has been Batgirl, but just watching the way Zatanna moves, plus the psychological effect of that annoying ass voice (Supergirl from DCUO) already has my blood pressure rising. Teleporting seems like the go-to gimmick now.

 

[shaowebb]

So far, the only DLC that's given me fits has been Batgirl, but just watching the way Zatanna moves, plus the psychological effect of that annoying ass voice (Supergirl from DCUO) already has my blood pressure rising. Teleporting seems like the go-to gimmick now.

Yeah thats another reason why her magic stance seems like her go to stance...I didn't see any teleports outside of it. So help them all if she can put out the yoga fireball, stance swap, and spam her ground spark and shang balls.

 

[EMPRESS_SunFire]

Well the Zatanna match up won't be a thought one! That MB Fire ball seems like we can flight over it.... THANK GOD those pilars are not full screen like Raven's, and her air teleport or levitate just with a simple D2, i didin't see any overheads on the gameplay so i guess she won't have vortex.

 

[Bolo Yeung]

lol can she just not punish skydrop with anything except stupid ass armor b3(yay damage). Fuck MMH

 

[Red Reaper]

Just started using this chick... What do you guys think are her bad match ups?

Besides MMH of kourse... =)

 

[Espio]

Just started using this chick... What do you guys think are her bad match ups?

Besides MMH of kourse... =)

Seems still too early to say on Martian Manhunter imo.

Her worst that are generally agreed upon are: Deathstroke, Sinestro and Batgirl.

She obviously has some other losing match ups, but those are the worst three most likely.

I think after that the rest are very debatable depending on who you ask.

 

[Red Reaper]

Seems still too early to say on Martian Manhunter imo.

Her worst that are generally agreed upon are: Deathstroke, Sinestro and Batgirl.

She obviously has some other losing match ups, but those are the worst three most likely.

I think after that the rest are very debatable depending on who you ask.

Hmm.... Sinestro? That's a weird choice. I was thinking Arrow would be up there....

If you're grounded is Batgirl so bad?

Deathstroke was my first thought.....

 

[Espio]

Hmm.... Sinestro? That's a weird choice. I was thinking Arrow would be up there....

If you're grounded is Batgirl so bad?

Deathstroke was my first thought.....

Sinestro restricts her movement heavily with boulders, fear blasts and trait. It's really easy for him to build trait versus her because her full screen options are so slow. Her dash isn't good and her floaty jump makes her susceptible to more of his shenanigans.


Green Arrow is pretty even actually from my experience I have that as 5-5.

It's one of the matches I've played the most with Hawkgirl, it's very lifelead based, he's not a problem for her at all.


Batgirl is the least bad of the big three, smart grounded play and good spacing go a long way and Hawkgirl has solid pressure/normals to contend with her, but considering Batgirl has better pressure, outzones her and prevents Hawkgirl from moving much/makes her trait irrelevant makes it a problem, you have to usually play reactionary and blow her up for her mistakes. I try to get a life lead early on and runaway.

 

[Red Reaper]

Sinestro restricts her movement heavily with boulders, fear blasts and trait. It's really easy for him to build trait versus her because her full screen options are so slow. Her dash isn't good and her floaty jump makes her susceptible to more of his shenanigans.


Green Arrow is pretty even actually from my experience I have that as 5-5.

It's one of the matches I've played the most with Hawkgirl, it's very lifelead based, he's not a problem for her at all.


Batgirl is the least bad of the big three, smart grounded play and good spacing go a long way and Hawkgirl has solid pressure/normals to contend with her, but considering Batgirl has better pressure, outzones her and prevents Hawkgirl from moving much at all makes it a problem, you have to usually play reactionary and blow her up. I try to get a life lead early on and runaway.

Hmm... Sinestro actually makes sense because of his messed up trait..

I kan see her being able to rush Arrow down as much as he kan to her but flight would probably be limited. Probably is 5-5.

Batgirl doesn't have fast pokes though so you kan probably bait out her stuff. I have limited Batgirl experience in general though.

Also, do you have any tricks to doing F11~4, 12~MC? Seems like the timing is based on the opponent's hitbox since they move back when stunned...?

 

[TrulyAmiracle]

You have to move a bit lower and towards the opponent then do the 12 MC. f11 does a million frames of hitstun, you have more time than you think lol.

 

[Icy Black Deep]

What are people doing against Green Lantern?
I hate that match-up, but it's not getting much mention on her list of bad match-ups, so maybe I'm missing something?
Maybe I'm too scared of it, but Lantern's Might seems to shut down everything. (With a dash of air Turbine Smash if I try to throw air maces.)