Harley General Fixes/"Buff" Thread

[EMPRESS_SunFire]

Funny coming from someone who mains Superman. Superman players would be the first ones crying if their stuff whiffed on characters. AKA why they call Catwoman a 3-7 lul

 

[B. Shazzy]

pretty sure its not just superman actually everyone’s stuff whiffs on catwoman so nice try harley player and nobody likes it but 16 bit works at nrs so what are we gonna do lul hold that shit inj 2 players

and i def dont main superman i just happen to play him better than any nrs player thats for facts

and stay free in both of supermans worst matchups

 

[EMPRESS_SunFire]

And it's annoying having your stuff whiffing on someone but as long as Harley players say stuff like this should get fixed we get called downplayers but everyone gets to complain about their stuff whiffing on other characters huh.

Also I would love to see Superman's 2nd hit of F23 whiff on females or something to see if ya'll still live for the "git gud" agenda.

But that's none of my business Guile player lul

 

[Tweedy]

My only issue with the Harley community is that a lot of them say(not the better ones mind you), that she gets outzoned by Superman, when she does not.

 

[Second Saint]

My only issue with the Harley community is that a lot of them say(not the better ones mind you), that she gets outzoned by Superman, when she does not.

Yeah, there are a lot with that opinion, and I see why. If you play it wrong, Supes kinda runs rampant with mb lasers and hurts you bad for it. I came to terms with it as a personal failure a long time ago though. That's a me problem, not a Harley problem.

 

[AkioOf100]

Why are y’all so rude.. omfg.

 

[Psyren136]

Why are y’all so rude.. omfg.

It's the internet...'nuff said

 

[AkioOf100]

It's the internet...'nuff said

:-(

 

[Kotal_Wannabe]

My only issue with the Harley community is that a lot of them say(not the better ones mind you), that she gets outzoned by Superman, when she does not.

Not to discredit you or your opinion, we all have them. But I'm baffled why you'd think she beats superman in the zoning war, she absolutely doesn't, this blind harley up play gotta stop now.

• Harley's gun shots only do 44 dmg to supes
• One mistake and she's taking 170+ dmg, 216 /w trait
• When harley blocks an MB laser she actually takes more dmg in chip than she can deal with a gunshot on HIT
• Harley can't just spam gunshot (as you said in my matchup thread), I feel you've just not labbed enough. When timed right supes can actually fire a ground laser (at any range) or even a heat zap (at mid range) to trade with harley's gunshot EVERYTIME, and every trade is heavily in his favor.
• Alternatively if harley fires one gun shot after the other, supes can do air laser, as long as you're fast it will punish her during the active frames of second gunshot unless she's end to end full screen.
• Harley is never end to end full screen after one gunshot, because she moves forward after each shot.

 

[Andnyal_]

Not to discredit you or your opinion, we all have them. But I'm baffled why you'd think she beats superman in the zoning war, she absolutely doesn't, this blind harley up play gotta stop now.

• Harley's gun shots only do 44 dmg to supes
• One mistake and she's taking 170+ dmg, 216 /w trait
• When harley blocks an MB laser she actually takes more dmg in chip than she can deal with a gunshot on HIT
• Harley can't just spam gunshot (as you said in my matchup thread), I feel you've just not labbed enough. When timed right supes can actually fire a ground laser (at any range) or even a heat zap (at mid range) to trade with harley's gunshot EVERYTIME, and every trade is heavily in his favor.
• Alternatively if harley fires one gun shot after the other, supes can do air laser, as long as you're fast it will punish her during the active frames of second gunshot unless she's end to end full screen.
• Harley is never end to end full screen after one gunshot, because she moves forward after each shot.

I really think these are all/other characters issues not just harleys , superman doesn’t only hurt Harley it’s everyone except supergirl or deadshot, or Batman. Hitbox issues that’s everyone... ivy j2 whiffs on everyone while they’re ducking not just a Harley issues. In my opinion she needs nerfs if she gets the buffs you’re asking for probably cartwheel requiring meter or something. She gets by without using meter at all unlike everyone else which is not ok and it’s a 400 50/50 bnb. I can’t even hit 300 meterlessly with ivy and she doesn’t have 50/50s and she can’t generate meter by spamming guns like Harley

 

[Eldagrin]

I really think these are all/other characters issues not just harleys , superman doesn’t only hurt Harley it’s everyone except supergirl or deadshot, or Batman. Hitbox issues that’s everyone... ivy j2 whiffs on everyone while they’re ducking not just a Harley issues. In my opinion she needs nerfs if she gets the buffs you’re asking for probably cartwheel requiring meter or something. She gets by without using meter at all unlike everyone else which is not ok and it’s a 400 50/50 bnb. I can’t even hit 300 meterlessly with ivy and she doesn’t have 50/50s and she can’t generate meter by spamming guns like Harley

Just putting in my 2 cents, Harley has mix ups but no real 50/50 combo starters, b2 is 13f and f2 is 26 frames, it’s not a very difficult fuzzy guard.

 

[JBeezYBabY]

As many of you know Harley is seen as this Top 10 character and insane zoning monster (even though she gets outzoned by almost everyone with a projectile) both of these things are false and she actually needs help.

Below are some suggestions that would be nice for our Psychotic Princess.

1) Fix her b22 whiffing on floating characters (even if u don't fix anything else, fix this shit at least)

2) Fix her pop pop so it doesn't whiff on some shitty crouching hitboxes.

3) Make tantrum 2 safe

4) Make 112 +1 on block and longer knockdown for oki

5) Allow her MB play doctor to kill (it's already neutral on hit make it at least kill if I'm spending the bar)

6) Give her a fast 10 frame b1 with decreased range to compensate (need an option to punish shit while stand blocking without having to guess)

7) Slightly buff gunshot dmg (trades are useless, gunshot doesn't knock down and does so little damage that it's laughable)

8) b22/tantrum 3 coming out when a character armors through. (it's hitting them, the full string should come out)

Discuss/Debate

First off...BABY YOU'RE BACK! <3

Second of all, ITS ABOUT DAMN TIME WE DISCUSS SOME HARLEY QUEEN!

Third I totally agree with basically....ALL OF THIS! Pretty damn reasonable since Harley is a really good character but when it comes to bad matchups its a massacre. Like, not even close.

The only thing i would disagree with is....I wouldn't go too far fetched to say she's #2 best zoner in the game. Her trades are indeed useless because she loses every time due to poor damage and the gun shot is not even that fast. I would say....maaaaybe top 5 ?Question mark?

ARE YOU SERIOUS? THIS BITCH IS BROKE WHAT EVEN IS THAT BRAINDEAD J2 ?Questionmark?

The love is REAL with this. So Righteous

 

[TopTierHarley]

First off...BABY YOU'RE BACK! <3

Second of all, ITS ABOUT DAMN TIME WE DISCUSS SOME HARLEY QUEEN!

Third I totally agree with basically....ALL OF THIS! Pretty damn reasonable since Harley is a really good character but when it comes to bad matchups its a massacre. Like, not even close.

The only thing i would disagree with is....I wouldn't go too far fetched to say she's #2 best zoner in the game. Her trades are indeed useless because she loses every time due to poor damage and the gun shot is not even that fast. I would say....maaaaybe top 5 ?Question mark?



The love is REAL with this. So Righteous

When she can zone she's in there, yea I don't all the changes just of them

 

[JBeezYBabY]

When she can zone she's in there, yea I don't all the changes just of them

True, but waaaay more effective against those who really don't have zoning tools. But the lack of speed on like....ALL HER ATTACKS doesn't make her zoning that great.

OH I also want to add...

Her mb Cupcake needs a little adjustment. That weird bounce to the opponent is kinda useless. The attack should make the opponent do a full ground bounce for potential juggling, and keep the much better zoners at bay. Think that would be too OP ?Question mark?

 

[Eldagrin]

True, but waaaay more effective against those who really don't have zoning tools. But the lack of speed on like....ALL HER ATTACKS doesn't make her zoning that great.

OH I also want to add...

Her mb Cupcake needs a little adjustment. That weird bounce to the opponent is kinda useless. The attack should make the opponent do a full ground bounce for potential juggling, and keep the much better zoners at bay. Think that would be too OP ?Question mark?

You can combo a gunshot or Mb gunshot off MB cupcakes on hit or just throw out a hyena, it’s not a lot but it’s something at least.

 

[JBeezYBabY]

You can combo a gunshot or Mb gunshot off MB cupcakes on hit or just throw out a hyena, it’s not a lot but it’s something at least.

Really? That's the only thing i can think of if that bounce was a full bounce, but since its very low and minimal bounce on hit, you can't barely get any attack afterwards. Unless maybe you have done it before?

 

[Eldagrin]

Really? That's the only thing i can think of if that bounce was a full bounce, but since its very low and minimal bounce on hit, you can't barely get any attack afterwards. Unless maybe you have done it before?

I do it all the time, gunshot pretty much always combos off MB cupcakes, but the bounce is different depending on which cupcake, and how many of them hit someone. MB cupcakes also jails into gunshot for more chip, cupcakes are great in general unless the opponent starts MB rolling them on reaction.

 

[untitledsix]

let me translate scrub language

“1. let me reap all the benfits of a female hitbox on an nrs game game but when other characters hitboxes are inconvienient lets fix it

2. agan see 1

3. let me do braindead cancels off my strings or wakeup yolo into a full combo or have 5 hours to confirm into tantrusm stance 2 on block cuz im a scrub

4. pointless scrub buff they think will change anything

5. make it kill even tho if the opponent is already in a situation where their lifebar is so so low in the first place you could just chip them out with like 2 d1s or something idk ok scrubs are weird man

6. cant learn to time punish properly make it easier for my scrub fingers(this why fighting games are trash now btw)

7. my near zero recovery instant projectile doesnt dominate neutral enough reward my instant gratification chimpanzee harley brain by making me work less hard

8. let me spam out my halfscreen low with no extended hurtbox with zero risk so i can autopilot into my new safe tantatrums 2 or into full combo rinse and repeat 24/7 please i suck ao bad”

there you go guise a direct translation from google

Quality post.

 

[PetulantWaste]

The bug fixes should be fine but these buffs seem like a whole lot. She does actually have pretty decent screen coverage with all her projectile options and trait. I also don't like the idea of a safe tantrum stance. She gets great meterless damage off of it. Why should it also be safe?

 

[Vengeance135]

The bug fixes should be fine but these buffs seem like a whole lot. She does actually have pretty decent screen coverage with all her projectile options and trait. I also don't like the idea of a safe tantrum stance. She gets great meterless damage off of it. Why should it also be safe?

Bruh you read my mind, also something to note regarding supermans zoning. Harley can mb roll through his air laser and punish him on recovery. Why don't I see this done? I do this with joker and she has way more damaging options.

 

[Eldagrin]

Bruh you read my mind, also something to note regarding supermans zoning. Harley can mb roll through his air laser and punish him on recovery. Why don't I see this done? I do this with joker and she has way more damaging options.

I usually save meter to MB roll through his lasers, but I’m not sure how reliable this is vs high level Superman players, as I’ve never played a long set with a good one.

 

[TarkatanDentist]

As many of you know Harley is seen as this Top 10 character and insane zoning monster (even though she gets outzoned by almost everyone with a projectile) both of these things are false and she actually needs help.

Below are some suggestions that would be nice for our Psychotic Princess.

1) Fix her b22 whiffing on floating characters (even if u don't fix anything else, fix this shit at least)

Agreed. Low attacks whiffing on floating characters in general is irritating.

2) Fix her pop pop so it doesn't whiff on some shitty crouching hitboxes.

Agreed. Maybe remove that random chance of it failing if you fully charge it as well.

3) Make tantrum 2 safe

Disagree - Tantrum Stance is meant to be high risk, high reward outside of combo confirms, and so giving it an option that's safe on block wouldn't fit well.

4) Make 112 +1 on block and longer knockdown for oki

Don't feel strongly about this either way.

5) Allow her MB play doctor to kill (it's already neutral on hit make it at least kill if I'm spending the bar)

Would be nice to have for sure.

6) Give her a fast 10 frame b1 with decreased range to compensate (need an option to punish shit while stand blocking without having to guess)

In terms of improving her mid-hitting normals I'd rather speed up standing 2 to 10-11 frame start-up.

7) Slightly buff gunshot dmg (trades are useless, gunshot doesn't knock down and does so little damage that it's laughable)

Disagree - gunshots do low damage for a reason.

8) b22/tantrum 3 coming out when a character armors through. (it's hitting them, the full string should come out)

That's just how armour works in this game generally - can't change this without changing how armour works generally.

Discuss/Debate

My thoughts added in bold above.

Apart from the hitbox fixes, which in themselves would help a fair bit, the only real thing I want Harley to have that she doesn't already have would be better mid-hitting normals. Outside of a so-so d1, her mids are simply too damn slow on start-up. There's no reason standing 2 should take 15 frames to start-up, and b1 taking 19 frames to start-up is rather excessive too. I honestly feel like her getting out-footsied by characters with vastly better mids is a bigger hurdle in matchups than being 'outzoned' tends to be.

 

[Vengeance135]

I usually save meter to MB roll through his lasers, but I’m not sure how reliable this is vs high level Superman players, as I’ve never played a long set with a good one.

I mean it works for me, I would imagine all mb rolls are the same I think.

 

[Vengeance135]

Another thing to add about her zoning and the reason why I think she's a good zoner is the plethora of tools at her disposal.

What I mean but this is when you take a general approach at what zoning is, it's pretty much summed up to space control, or a keep out game (which lever you prefer), which she does very well when utilizing her tools effectively.

She has upward shot, jump shots, her regular shots and cupcakes, which all can be mb'd, and has trait. She may not be able to mindlessly zone like deadshot could at one point but if you are efficient, patient and knowledgeable with her toolset, you can effectively keep a lot of characters out.

I do agree that she should receive a small damage buff to her regular guns though. Maybe 6% instead of 4%. They do shoot moderately fast and that mb option definitely keeps people in check.

All my opinion of course

 

[exflyingbooty]

The only thing she really needs is b+22 fixed and pop pop hitting people's crouching hurtboxes because if it says it's a mid it should function like one.