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Grodd is broke. The relationship between Stampede Cancel and 22.

Sage Leviathan

I'm platinum mad!
I feel like I've walked into an episode of the Twilight Zone. No one is even listening (or correctly replying, for that matter) to the discussion that Grodd players have introduced. It's seriously bizarre to see this many people respond to seemingly invisible comments.

The closest thing to an actual rebuttal so far came from @Temp , who used actual logic and reasoning to discuss his point.
 

Shadow316

You inspire no fear.
Don't worry, we all get it. The execution is too difficult for the very little reward it gives. Plus the gaps in the cancels make them pointless for anyone that actually labbed the character. If the gaps were reduced so they're not so easily punishable or gone completely, you guys would have no issues with the execution barrier.
 
Okay, now that I'm logged back into my correct account, lol.


A few things to say here, but let's start with the philosophical disagreement. If you think this element (not the character as a whole; just the cancels) is bad game design, then by extension, you're saying high execution is bad game design. I disagree. Fighting games are about advanced decision making combined with dexterity and reactions. If you minimize dexterity, you diminish their value. People are saying "but it's one of his basic tools!", but I don't necessarily buy that. To me, it seems more likely that NRS did not intend the character to be used this way. Regardless, it doesn't change my mind.

Execution is too important to phase out. No one would care about Chris G's one-frame links with Sakura if they were easy. No one would care about Jewel Man doing Honda's piano inputs into a one-frame normal canceled into MORE piano inputs if it were easy. Imagine if Capcom changed Magneto's inputs because people struggled with the Rom Combo.

To me, execution isn't about game design. It's about glory and hype. I don't want NRS to patch anything yet, but if they do, making stuff easier is not the solution, IMO. But never mind the solution for now. Let's talk about the problem.


I don't think this has anything to do with capability. I don't want to sound like an jerk (honestly, I don't; I get where everyone's coming from), but based off what I'm reading in this thread, it sounds more to me that people just don't want to put in the time. I get that this stuff isn't easy, but we're only on the second month of the game, and great players have shown that these cancels can be done with consistency. Also, regarding a previous comment...


That's the point of fighting games. The goal is to BECOME the exception and set yourself apart. That's why I play fighters. If you do something cool, it's all you. YOU did it. It's not some stat you raised, it's not some item you grinded out for. It's just YOU. If any dude-bro could just pick these games up and do cancel pressure, then you rob what makes these games special.
Thank you for discussing this and not pulling something out of your ass just to be a dick head.
 
(This is long, but I have to flesh out the issue. Sorry!)

This thread had to be made to give more visibility to a serious problem with Grodd and I hope someone from NRS sees it because the Grodd community is suffering. I also want to expose this great weakness in hopes that other players exploit it and prove my point.

Let's start with Stampede Cancel. The input is BF3, then FF or BB to cancel (similar to MKX style cancels). The window to input this cancel is insanely small making the cancel difficulty so high than maybe 95% of the the Grodd community on TYM and Discord still cannot consistently do it. For reference, I played A-List Cage in MKX as a secondary character and was able to learn the cancels and do them consistently in about a week or 2. This game has been out a month and I only know of 1 person in our community that can really do them well. Most of us still fear using them in a match because if you screw it up you'll be at -14.

So at this point you're either thinking, "Get good" or "Just dont do the cancel.". More practice is a good solution but while other people playing other characters have their characters figured out and our working on matchups and tech, we're still trying to get the damn cancel right. Don't take my word for it. You try it and tell me how it goes. Let's run down Grodd's offense so I can expose him real good!

112. Is high, starts up in 10 frames and has a gap between 1 and 2. Not one you just throw out there in the neutral unless you're punishing.

B2. 12 frame mid and maybe Grodd's primary attack tool. Only problem is it's a 1 hit move that you cant hit confirm. B2~leap works great on hit to launch a meterless combo, but on block you're going to eat full combo because every character can punish it. With trait on you can do B2~float and on block, air back dash to be safe(ish, it's punishable by many characters), and on hit you can do Psionic Blast to get a meterless combo. I think B2 is fair risk reward...but B2 isnt the problem.

B11+3. 20 frame low starter. This string sucks. It only works as a part of Grodd's "mixup" (He has no mixup...). On block it's -11. You'll ALWAYS be blocking low against Grodd since his only overhead is 28 frames. So basically if you throw this out you're asking to be full combo punished. Worst part is, sometimes you'll land B1, but the follow up 1+3 will whiff, sometimes leading to being punished for hitting someone...Why?!?!

22. This is the big one. The real problem. 22 is a 10 frame mid with good reach. It's Grodd's go to string and it's broke. It's -8 on block, it has an 8 frame gap that EVERY character can MBB3 of MBF3. Many characters like Aquaman that have a 6 frame D1 can D1~comboland without too much practice. Some characters like Flash can just mash D2 and launch Grodd in the middle of his string. Characters that have a parry can easily parry the gap. Wonder Woman will KILL you with her parry. It cant be made safe using the 1+3 or 3 ender to the string, only more punishable.

(Yes, that's just about it for his offensive options.)

Ok, so here's the issue. Grodd CANNOT attack. I'm fairly certain he was meant to use his Stampede Cancels to keep him safe doing shit like: 22~SC, or if they try and hit the gap you do 2~SC, then begin your pressure with 112~SC, B2~SC. That makes total sense to me except 95% of us can't do the damn cancel consistently. Every time we have to attack it could mean eating a combo. How many of you can say that about your character? Grodd in his current state is basically an unbearably high execution, YOLO character. It's a ton of risk, for a medium reward.


How to fix this:

It's simple. The window to do the cancel must be enlarged. You can keep Grodd a high execution character, but not so hard that the majority of people cant do it. If cancels are supposed to be this hard and we all just suck at doing them, then the alternative would be to shrink the gap in 22. Make it small enough to back dash but not punish with MBB3 or a D1. Seriously, Grodd in his current state may be the worst character in the game, you just didn't know it. Fix the 22/SC relationship issue and he may have a future.


We really do love playing this character and nothing I suggested would make him OP. I really hope this reaches the right people so Grodd can continue bringing the hype.
Good write up btw
 

BassCase

Noob
I can understand the argument of "put the time in to get better at his execution " , and honestly I have been getting better. I went from 1/5 to 2/5. Not in a match.

The part of this argument that I do not and will not understand is:
How can the execution barrier be justified with his lack of other tools? Slow normals, massive gaps in his strings, no way to open opponents up besides throws, etc. The truth is you can be a master at his cancels and still have no way of getting a hit on your opponent.

Long story short, the people that choose a character for the character and not their spot on the tier list should not have to work ten times harder for a fraction of the reward.
 

Shadow316

You inspire no fear.
first part was for his opinion 2nd part was expressing how I and good amount dont care about the difficulty and will take the gaps going away over difficulty of the sc.
Oh you came back, good morning !

When you said, "he wants a fair trade", isn't that what you all want though?
 
Oh you came back, good morning !

When you said, "he wants a fair trade", isn't that what you all want though?
lmao you dont wanna know what I want and just defending the majority that are not here and just triggered from the ppl bming the grodd community. I also apologize for anything rude I might have said was 3 in the morning and I was tilted.
 

Shadow316

You inspire no fear.
lmao you dont wanna know what I want and just defending the majority that are not here and just triggered from the ppl bming the grodd community. I also apologize for anything rude I might have said was 3 in the morning and I was tilted.
Hmm, I don't see any BM, just ignorance, unless it's outside this thread.

No need to apologize, I can understand why you'd be annoyed.
 

Daemantalo

Not Good Enough
Please NRS. Help the Grodd in some way. This character is way too hype not to be seen at tournament level play. I want the 22 gaps either minimized or gone. Please.
 
If any dude-bro could just pick these games up and do cancel pressure, then you rob what makes these games special.
I actually have to disagree on this point. I really think most people, (players AND spectators alike), are way more engrossed in stuff outside execution barriers. The mindgames. Reads. Reactions. Baits. Combos. Resets. Mixups. Comebacks. Etc. All that special stuff that has little to do with execution.

Plus I don't get what an "execution player" even is. I get that some people enjoy execution barriers, but there can't be too many players who purposely seek out the hardest links/inputs in the game and base their character selection on that and that ALONE. Certainly not enough players to justify "giving them their own character" as someone earlier in this thread suggested.

No idea how hard these cancels actually are or whether they're intended to be the foundation of Grodd's playstyle, but I wanted to comment on that, since the importance of high execution tends to be a common FGC debate.
 

Mikemetroid

Who hired this guy, WTF?
Grodd just needs some string tuneups and he'll be fine... and maybe actual grabs. Something to open people up is the only thing he needs. b1 grab also needs to connect better, can't tell you how any times i land b1 in neutral and the grab whiffs.

Stampede cancels are kind of a bill because you are not going to chip someone out to death in this game. In reality they should be used for pressure but nothing like Kabal-like pressure.
 

Name v.5.0

Iowa's Finest.
Grodd just needs some string tuneups and he'll be fine... and maybe actual grabs. Something to open people up is the only thing he needs. b1 grab also needs to connect better, can't tell you how any times i land b1 in neutral and the grab whiffs.

Stampede cancels are kind of a bill because you are not going to chip someone out to death in this game. In reality they should be used for pressure but nothing like Kabal-like pressure.
Yeah, I dont understand why some characters get true grabs in a string and Grodd doesnt. He's a grappler with several strings that grab, but only on hit....Why? Not like he's opening people up with his 20 frame low or his 28 frame overheard.
 

Tweedy

Noob
It'd be amazing if he had even a shitty mid command grab. Regular throws are easy to tech imo, it's just that we're not all adjusted to them yet. In 6-9 months mixing people with hit or regular throw might become problematic.
 

Nexallus

From Takeda to Robin
pretty sure everyone knows he is but you are correct shouldn't feed it.
Goonie's thing is kinda his caps. He's been doing it since MKX I think.

All trolls aside, I think people are misunderstanding the term "Stampede Cancels."

What the OP actually means is cancelling into the Stampede special move from some of Grodd's unsafe strings, AND THEN cancelling the Stampede special move itself to MAKE the string safe.

The problem is that the payoff for learning this sucks.
 
Goonie's thing is kinda his caps. He's been doing it since MKX I think.

All trolls aside, I think people are misunderstanding the term "Stampede Cancels."

What the OP actually means is cancelling into the Stampede special move from some of Grodd's unsafe strings, AND THEN cancelling the Stampede special move itself to MAKE the string safe.

The problem is that the payoff for learning this sucks.
OH ik his thing its just childish
 

dribirut

BLAK FELOW
Goonie's thing is kinda his caps. He's been doing it since MKX I think.

All trolls aside, I think people are misunderstanding the term "Stampede Cancels."

What the OP actually means is cancelling into the Stampede special move from some of Grodd's unsafe strings, AND THEN cancelling the Stampede special move itself to MAKE the string safe.

The problem is that the payoff for learning this sucks.
It comes across as heavy trolling .especially when he mocks grodd players about the cancels and laughs..
 

Nexallus

From Takeda to Robin
It comes across as heavy trolling .especially when he mocks grodd players about the cancels and laughs..
I think he misunderstood what the OP meant by 'Stampede Cancels' (could be wrong) and thought he meant simply cancelling the stampede.

In terms of trolls, I have seen far worse trolls than Goonie (especially on this site).
 

Lex Luthor II

Lord of Lightning
I feel like I've walked into an episode of the Twilight Zone. No one is even listening (or correctly replying, for that matter) to the discussion that Grodd players have introduced. It's seriously bizarre to see this many people respond to seemingly invisible comments.

The closest thing to an actual rebuttal so far came from @Temp , who used actual logic and reasoning to discuss his point.
Yeah but Wonder Woman, not Superman, shoulda used that Kryptonite spear at the end on Doomsday. Superman didn't have to die.