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Grodd is broke. The relationship between Stampede Cancel and 22.

Name v.5.0

Iowa's Finest.
(This is long, but I have to flesh out the issue. Sorry!)

This thread had to be made to give more visibility to a serious problem with Grodd and I hope someone from NRS sees it because the Grodd community is suffering. I also want to expose this great weakness in hopes that other players exploit it and prove my point.

Let's start with Stampede Cancel. The input is BF3, then FF or BB to cancel (similar to MKX style cancels). The window to input this cancel is insanely small making the cancel difficulty so high than maybe 95% of the the Grodd community on TYM and Discord still cannot consistently do it. For reference, I played A-List Cage in MKX as a secondary character and was able to learn the cancels and do them consistently in about a week or 2. This game has been out a month and I only know of 1 person in our community that can really do them well. Most of us still fear using them in a match because if you screw it up you'll be at -14.

So at this point you're either thinking, "Get good" or "Just dont do the cancel.". More practice is a good solution but while other people playing other characters have their characters figured out and our working on matchups and tech, we're still trying to get the damn cancel right. Don't take my word for it. You try it and tell me how it goes. Let's run down Grodd's offense so I can expose him real good!

112. Is high, starts up in 10 frames and has a gap between 1 and 2. Not one you just throw out there in the neutral unless you're punishing.

B2. 12 frame mid and maybe Grodd's primary attack tool. Only problem is it's a 1 hit move that you cant hit confirm. B2~leap works great on hit to launch a meterless combo, but on block you're going to eat full combo because every character can punish it. With trait on you can do B2~float and on block, air back dash to be safe(ish, it's punishable by many characters), and on hit you can do Psionic Blast to get a meterless combo. I think B2 is fair risk reward...but B2 isnt the problem.

B11+3. 20 frame low starter. This string sucks. It only works as a part of Grodd's "mixup" (He has no mixup...). On block it's -11. You'll ALWAYS be blocking low against Grodd since his only overhead is 28 frames. So basically if you throw this out you're asking to be full combo punished. Worst part is, sometimes you'll land B1, but the follow up 1+3 will whiff, sometimes leading to being punished for hitting someone...Why?!?!

22. This is the big one. The real problem. 22 is a 10 frame mid with good reach. It's Grodd's go to string and it's broke. It's -8 on block, it has an 8 frame gap that EVERY character can MBB3 of MBF3. Many characters like Aquaman that have a 6 frame D1 can D1~comboland without too much practice. Some characters like Flash can just mash D2 and launch Grodd in the middle of his string. Characters that have a parry can easily parry the gap. Wonder Woman will KILL you with her parry. It cant be made safe using the 1+3 or 3 ender to the string, only more punishable.

(Yes, that's just about it for his offensive options.)

Ok, so here's the issue. Grodd CANNOT attack. I'm fairly certain he was meant to use his Stampede Cancels to keep him safe doing shit like: 22~SC, or if they try and hit the gap you do 2~SC, then begin your pressure with 112~SC, B2~SC. That makes total sense to me except 95% of us can't do the damn cancel consistently. Every time we have to attack it could mean eating a combo. How many of you can say that about your character? Grodd in his current state is basically an unbearably high execution, YOLO character. It's a ton of risk, for a medium reward.


How to fix this:

It's simple. The window to do the cancel must be enlarged. You can keep Grodd a high execution character, but not so hard that the majority of people cant do it. If cancels are supposed to be this hard and we all just suck at doing them, then the alternative would be to shrink the gap in 22. Make it small enough to back dash but not punish with MBB3 or a D1. Seriously, Grodd in his current state may be the worst character in the game, you just didn't know it. Fix the 22/SC relationship issue and he may have a future.


We really do love playing this character and nothing I suggested would make him OP. I really hope this reaches the right people so Grodd can continue bringing the hype.
 
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Name v.5.0

Iowa's Finest.
omegak has them down.
He's the exception, not the rule.

What's the point of having the cancel if a large majority of people can't do it, much less do it consistently. It's overly difficult for no reason. You cant even combo with it on hit like A-List could (edit unless you use 112). We need it to be easier so we can actually attack our opponents. It's fundamental to the safety of our character.
 

EMPEROR_KNICKS

Master of Kombat(frauds)
He's the exception, not the rule.

What's the point of having the cancel if a large majority of people can't do it, much less do it consistently. It's overly difficult for no reason. You cant even combo with it on hit like A-List could. We need it to be easier so we can actually attack our opponents. It's fundamental to the safety of our character.
He does them on pad im pretty sure, i can do them kinda consistently and i dont even play grodd like that, it just takes practice in order to consistently jail certain a list cancels it also took practice. But personally i dont even think the cancels are that good bc they have so many gaps and dont combo.
 

Name v.5.0

Iowa's Finest.
He does them on pad im pretty sure, i can do them kinda consistently and i dont even play grodd like that, it just takes practice in order to consistently jail certain a list cancels it also took practice. But personally i dont even think the cancels are that good bc they have so many gaps and dont combo.
That's what I was trying to say in the OP. I've been practicing...A LOT. Way more than I ever did with A-List. I could do the A-List cancels without even thinking after awhile, but I promise you this cancel is harder and a lot less useful. The point is it allows us to stay safe with our main string. It's necessary for it to be fixed.
 

EMPEROR_KNICKS

Master of Kombat(frauds)
That's just a video of him doing them in practice I really wonder how consistently he can do that on a real match. Tyrant can also do them but he uses a hit box and misses them many times in real matches.
I played him in ranked he hit them really consistently.
 
Not saying they cant be done omega is a god for doing as many as he did on pad, I am also sure every grodd player has gone into practice mode and done them not consistently but we can do them.my problem is whats the point of making them so difficult when they give such little reward you fuck them up once WHICH WILL HAPPEN and bye bye.
 
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Skedar70

Noob
I've been checking his stream right now, and he misses many of the cancels Its not like he has them dead on point. Mostly the 22 SC. He does the 112 consistently but seems to have a harder time on the 22 SC.
 
I mean if they stay the way they are then fuck it wee just have to get good and deal with it maybe its just us but not gonna say they shouldn't be easier for a character like this.
 
I don't believe Grodd was designed with the intent for SC to be a tool, seeing as it's absolutely ridonkulous to input ( the AI in this game uses it, but the AI does a ton of weird shit). I wouldn't believe it unless a dev commented otherwise that 22-SC was intended to be a thing and not just incidentally there.

Regardless they do make the character sorta work so it's be a nice idea to actually formalize them and make it something like "hold back after inputting stampede", or just a single press "back" instead of double.

But yeah, it's sorta depressing. Grodd has dirt but no real way to get started. 22 gap is dumb.
 

Belial

Noob
The whine about difficulty on cancels is totally wrong. I can do 20 cancels in a row w/o much problems though of course you drop it from time to time it's not like is undoable or unreliable like some people claim. Other fg have characters that take years to master and are fine with that.

It's the reward you get off cancels that's just not worth it. Grodd is highly unsafe very short range normals and his pressure even with perfect cancels is bad. You don't build lots off bar or deal much chip even if your enemy blocks 10 b2 in a row. Every time adam or aqua goes for some sort of mixup it's usually safe and good on block. Grodd mixup is commitment that gets you punished on block. I'e if your opponent just backsdashes every time he block any normal you have no way to punish it but leap. If he interrupts after b2 you need 22 or d2 both unsafe. Consider the difficulty to even get this "pressure" going...

Now in soul calibur 5 there was alpha patrokolos that demanded super execution to play but once mastered he was easily the best character. Grodd mastered? High tier AT BEST but with some unwinnable matchups (aquaman). Why would anyone spend so much time mastering character that is beatable by any mediocre player that spent two hours to get a pocket aqua?
 

Skedar70

Noob
The whine about difficulty on cancels is totally wrong. I can do 20 cancels in a row w/o much problems though of course you drop it from time to time it's not like is undoable or unreliable like some people claim. Other fg have characters that take years to master and are fine with that.

It's the reward you get off cancels that's just not worth it. Grodd is highly unsafe very short range normals and his pressure even with perfect cancels is bad. You don't build lots off bar or deal much chip even if your enemy blocks 10 b2 in a row. Every time adam or aqua goes for some sort of mixup it's usually safe and good on block. Grodd mixup is commitment that gets you punished on block. I'e if your opponent just backsdashes every time he block any normal you have no way to punish it but leap. If he interrupts after b2 you need 22 or d2 both unsafe. Consider the difficulty to even get this "pressure" going...

Now in soul calibur 5 there was alpha patrokolos that demanded super execution to play but once mastered he was easily the best character. Grodd mastered? High tier AT BEST but with some unwinnable matchups (aquaman). Why would anyone spend so much time mastering character that is beatable by any mediocre player that spent two hours to get a pocket aqua?
Well if he sucks soo bad imagine how much he sucks without the cancels. Cancels allow his buttons to be safe 2, 22, b2, d2 etc.
 
The whine about difficulty on cancels is totally wrong. I can do 20 cancels in a row w/o much problems though of course you drop it from time to time it's not like is undoable or unreliable like some people claim. Other fg have characters that take years to master and are fine with that.

It's the reward you get off cancels that's just not worth it. Grodd is highly unsafe very short range normals and his pressure even with perfect cancels is bad. You don't build lots off bar or deal much chip even if your enemy blocks 10 b2 in a row. Every time adam or aqua goes for some sort of mixup it's usually safe and good on block. Grodd mixup is commitment that gets you punished on block. I'e if your opponent just backsdashes every time he block any normal you have no way to punish it but leap. If he interrupts after b2 you need 22 or d2 both unsafe. Consider the difficulty to even get this "pressure" going...

Now in soul calibur 5 there was alpha patrokolos that demanded super execution to play but once mastered he was easily the best character. Grodd mastered? High tier AT BEST but with some unwinnable matchups (aquaman). Why would anyone spend so much time mastering character that is beatable by any mediocre player that spent two hours to get a pocket aqua?
Pretty much this lmao
 
The whine about difficulty on cancels is totally wrong. I can do 20 cancels in a row w/o much problems though of course you drop it from time to time it's not like is undoable or unreliable like some people claim.
You should try the actual Grodd stampede cancels.
 

Nexallus

From Takeda to Robin
I really hope they change many inputs before Evo (Poison Ivy's Bark Skin, Doctor Fate's Healing Orb) and Grodd's Stampede Cancel looks like it could be made so much easier.
 

Name v.5.0

Iowa's Finest.
I don't believe Grodd was designed with the intent for SC to be a tool, seeing as it's absolutely ridonkulous to input ( the AI in this game uses it, but the AI does a ton of weird shit). I wouldn't believe it unless a dev commented otherwise that 22-SC was intended to be a thing and not just incidentally there.

Regardless they do make the character sorta work so it's be a nice idea to actually formalize them and make it something like "hold back after inputting stampede", or just a single press "back" instead of double.

But yeah, it's sorta depressing. Grodd has dirt but no real way to get started. 22 gap is dumb.
It does make you wonder what the design idea actually was.

Why give him such terrible strings?
Why is he so unsafe?
Why are his mixup options so terrible?
Why do so many characters have forward advancing mid strings with no gaps, but Grodd's only mid string doesn't advance and is totally unsafe without cancels????
 
It does make you wonder what the design idea actually was.

Why give him such terrible strings?
Why is he so unsafe?
Why are his mixup options so terrible?
Why do so many characters have forward advancing mid strings with no gaps, but Grodd's only mid string doesn't advance and is totally unsafe without cancels????
Im fine with not having mix ups but the strings is where my anger comes from lol
 

Nexallus

From Takeda to Robin
I wish grodd had at least one slightly plus string on block, like the 112 for example as a high starter. That's just me though.