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Match-up Discussion Green Arrow In Depth Match Up Discussion (1.06)

Red Reaper

The Hyrax Whisperer
7L
I disagree with somethings on the Grundy Match Up though I still have to grind it out more.

Grundy. Main things are, he has no answer for savage blast. You can't just aimlessly do it from full screen though because you will get hit by swamp hands.
It's kind of weird that you say he has no answer to Savage Blast yet in the next sentence you mention the answer he has, MB Swamp Hands. I'm not sure how much of it is a read and how much of it is reaction though.

When walking corpse is coming, 22 savage blast will allow you to get away. Everytime that grundy gets hit, the input for canceling the WC is taken away. So a quick hitting 22 to savage blast will cancel the input. If he does cancel in time, he is still eating the 22 savage blast, jailing him into not being able to pressure. If he tries to WC at a savage blast coming out, another one will get you safely away.
I'm pretty sure the input for kancelling WC isn't taken away when he gets hit on his armor.

The big thing about WC is that it will not hit the active frames of savage blast.
True.

On knock down, you have the option to guess if he will WC or Cleaver. The cleaver has so much invisibility that it will catch you if you try to run in and 22/d1 to savage blast, the best thing to do is to wait until he wakes up and read it. If he ex or normal cleavers, armored b3 to blow it up for 35%+ or simply block. For many of his tricks, you can simply d1 to savage blast to get away or just savage blast.
invincibility* lol. Sorry for that, just thought it was funny. Ironically in the MMH-Grundy match up. Walking Corpse through orbs sometimes causes Grundy to go invisible. Notably on wake up.

I was working on the oki game against Grundy and I found that ending in 223~Load Arrow allowed for a dash in mix up game. Neutral jump 3 to punish the Cleaver and 33 to punish his WC or AA grab. The good thing about this is that if you neutral jump it looks like he has to AA Grab on read and if he does WC he has to kancel it the other way and you kan land safely. If he doesn't kancel WC you kan get a full kombo punish.

For the 33 beating WC. It's the grab invincible frames of 33 that allow for the punish so he is forced to kancel and you kan kontinue your pressure. The ender (223~Load Arrow) also allows for the proper timing of 33.

His d2 to 4 (ability chain grab) can he interrupted by d1. The ability can actually catch your savage blast at some points but it isn't too likely. f13 to 4 can be backdashed. This will beat most of his options that he can do afterward. The antiair grab(a read) will wiff, the cleaver will come out but you can block in time, swamp hands will be able to be blocked in time. Also a thing to do with him after his mix ups is armored b3, this is a huge help to arrow. Super won't really be used in this match up.
After F13 he kan kancel into WC to punish your backdash.

A lot of this match up is knowing what grundy can do and how to counter it.

112 to WC for example, if you just try to savage blast, he can cancel and sometimes catch you with d2. The best thing to do is d1 to savage blast because this will delay input for a cancel, if he did it and then the savage blast will escape the WC if he doesn't cancel.
This is good to know. Also to be noted is that B2 and F2 are grab invincible. B23 for the frame advantage and F2 for the 50/50's or the higher damage kombo punish on a wiffed WC.

http://www.twitch.tv/kombatnetwork/b/465799616

start at 1:22:00. People say I just have Mike's number. I think the MU isn't bad

Grundy kan be more patient than how Mike is playing. Savage Blasts and Arrow's escape options tend to push Arrow to the korner where Grundy dominates. I'm still not sure how I feel about this match up but I definitely like it better than MMH vs Grundy.
 

7L

Heads up!
Premium Supporter
Red Reaper. What I meant was if your savage blast hits, even on his armor. You just can't be wiffing the savage blast to build meter or doing it too far out. Besides that its free damage. If he's getting hit on armor and non trait its about 6.5% I think. You can land 2 if he doesn't cancel and get a knockdown
 

Red Reaper

The Hyrax Whisperer
Red Reaper. What I meant was if your savage blast hits, even on his armor. You just can't be wiffing the savage blast to build meter or doing it too far out. Besides that its free damage. If he's getting hit on armor and non trait its about 6.5% I think. You can land 2 if he doesn't cancel and get a knockdown

Makes sense.. You should read the part about the oki though. That's particularly important not the first part I quoted.
 
Reactions: 7L

7L

Heads up!
Premium Supporter
Makes sense.. You should read the part about the oki though. That's particularly important not the first part I quoted.
I do like that. I didn't know nj3 will dodge the cleaver, depending on distance you can probably make AA grab wiff too. I'll look into it.
 

Red Reaper

The Hyrax Whisperer
I do like that. I didn't know nj3 will dodge the cleaver, depending on distance you can probably make AA grab wiff too. I'll look into it.

Oki is my favorite thing in this game.. It's one of the first things I tested against.. That's one of the reasons I hate Batgirl. She has too many options: Kartwheel, Teleport, Bat Evade.
 

Jimmypotato

Mid Tier
Thank you,

Grundy. Main things are, he has no answer for savage blast. You can't just aimlessly do it from full screen though because you will get hit by swamp hands.

When walking corpse is coming, 22 savage blast will allow you to get away. Everytime that grundy gets hit, the input for canceling the WC is taken away. So a quick hitting 22 to savage blast will cancel the input. If he does cancel in time, he is still eating the 22 savage blast, jailing him into not being able to pressure. If he tries to WC at a savage blast coming out, another one will get you safely away.

The big thing about WC is that it will not hit the active frames of savage blast.

On knock down, you have the option to guess if he will WC or Cleaver. The cleaver has so much invisibility that it will catch you if you try to run in and 22/d1 to savage blast, the best thing to do is to wait until he wakes up and read it. If he ex or normal cleavers, armored b3 to blow it up for 35%+ or simply block. For many of his tricks, you can simply d1 to savage blast to get away or just savage blast.

His d2 to 4 (ability chain grab) can he interrupted by d1. The ability can actually catch your savage blast at some points but it isn't too likely. f13 to 4 can be backdashed. This will beat most of his options that he can do afterward. The antiair grab(a read) will wiff, the cleaver will come out but you can block in time, swamp hands will be able to be blocked in time. Also a thing to do with him after his mix ups is armored b3, this is a huge help to arrow. Super won't really be used in this match up.

If you start catching their wake up cleavers, they'll start to respect you on knockdown. Then you can start sneaking in b2's and more pressure on wake up.

A lot of this match up is knowing what grundy can do and how to counter it.

112 to WC for example, if you just try to savage blast, he can cancel and sometimes catch you with d2. The best thing to do is d1 to savage blast because this will delay input for a cancel, if he did it and then the savage blast will escape the WC if he doesn't cancel.

http://www.twitch.tv/kombatnetwork/b/465799616

start at 1:22:00. People say I just have Mike's number. I think the MU isn't bad

You just have Mikes number, and he's not playing the match up right, you get away with alot in those matches.

Mike, you can blow up D1 anything in that match with WC, even D1~Savage Blast. While it's true that we can Savage on reaction to WC, you have to know he's only gonna do that and thats where your swamp hands come in, when he is just dash in and then doing naked savage to bait a WC. Arrow should NEVER be able to D1 anything if you block the D1.

7L, I know you said you can deal with MB Clever, but dude, you got hit by everyone in the 2 matches I watched, and that was about 7 of them.

Full screen there is no reason for grundy to be rushing in, not sure if mike forgets he has swamp hands and MB swamp hands, and fake swamp hands.

Also, Mike seems to have trouble blocking the F2D13 string.

I was gonna go more into depth, but I'm kinda like, meh, you guys will figure it out one day.

Mike leaves alotta damage on the table,

7L, you do alotta things right in the match, and if he lets you get away with it, hell why not. I would keep runnin train on that ass too if I were you, cause fuck Grundy.

Edit: I remember when people told me I was crazy thinking Bane was a bad match up, then they play a really good Bane that knows what they are doing. Same thing goes here. While Mike is on the right track, he is just plane doing it wrong, and should def practice blocking F2D13 and blowing up D1 anything on block,
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
I'll just say... peopel forget that Grundy's trait is also a wakeup with invic and MB has armor

and that Grundy can just block on wakeup...... I mean..... its not like you're dealing out huge amounts of chip damage.

The only problem i've ever had with GA is lag.
 

BlastX21

Noob
Can Green Arrow outzone Nightwing (primarily from escrima stance)? I faced a NW earlier who used a lot of ground sparks and went to MB wingdings when I got close. He also would frequently dash-cancel ground sparks. It gave me a lot of trouble getting in, so I started trying to zone him with fire arrows. It worked for a small while, but I started to lose eventually. Part of it might be that I need to improve in this area, but it also could be that NW just straight up outzones GA. Does he?
 

SoundsLikePAUSE

Neptune's Beard!!!
Can Green Arrow outzone Nightwing (primarily from escrima stance)? I faced a NW earlier who used a lot of ground sparks and went to MB wingdings when I got close. He also would frequently dash-cancel ground sparks. It gave me a lot of trouble getting in, so I started trying to zone him with fire arrows. It worked for a small while, but I started to lose eventually. Part of it might be that I need to improve in this area, but it also could be that NW just straight up outzones GA. Does he?
Yeah, don't even try. You'll never outzone Nightwing with GA. His ground sparks are too fast and deal too much damage. Your best bet in this match is to try and keep him in his escrima sticks stance. Once he's in staff stance, it's a whole different story and becomes extremely hard for GA to deal with. But, Nightwings love to Flying Grayson the second you get within mid range. Crouching ice arrow will deal with that. Catch him a few times and he'll start respecting you from mid range allowing you some mix up opportunities. But, he will beat you upclose and from full screen.

And you gotta respect his wake up in staff stance. In escrima, I usually bait the overhead flip jump bs he has and catch him with an ice arrow when he misses. Do that a few times and you'll earn some more respect.

But, these are just ways I've found useful in this MU. I'm sure there's other ways to deal with him too. I do believe blocked wingdings up close can be punished.
 

Red Reaper

The Hyrax Whisperer
They made the Nightwing match up easier with the low arrow fix. Since you kan duck his Flying Grayson now, Arrow has a viable midscreen game... Before he used to pretty much lose at all ranges.

Full Screen against Staff just dash into Midscreen to avoid the blasts. If he gets you in MB Ground Blast then you kan backdash the follow up to avoid chip. It's actually possible to backdash both hits of MB Ground Blast but you must do the first backdash a bit early and it's a bit difficult. If he's waiting for you to dash, then you kan start shooting low arrows, he kan duck under the high ones a lot of times. If you did it early enough, you'll recover before he does and win the trade (assuming you had fire or electric arrows).

Up klose you mostly want to D1~Savage since his D1 is so good at kounter poking and then he gets the advantage.

Midrange is where you'll want to be though against Staff. Once he finds that you kan beat him out of Flying Grayson, you kan start to Savage Blast to null his advance.

In Escrima the match up is easier and I don't feel like getting into that right now. Just don't forget about his Auto Kross Ups with strings into Flip Kick. And learn the spacing on that as it doesn't always kross up.

If any of you guys find a way to Oki him while he's in Staff the let me know. I've tried to before but I kouldn't find much outside of "stay midrange and hope he wakes up with Flying Grayson"
 

Chongo

Dead Kings Rise
They made the Nightwing match up easier with the low arrow fix. Since you kan duck his Flying Grayson now, Arrow has a viable midscreen game... Before he used to pretty much lose at all ranges.

Full Screen against Staff just dash into Midscreen to avoid the blasts. If he gets you in MB Ground Blast then you kan backdash the follow up to avoid chip. It's actually possible to backdash both hits of MB Ground Blast but you must do the first backdash a bit early and it's a bit difficult. If he's waiting for you to dash, then you kan start shooting low arrows, he kan duck under the high ones a lot of times. If you did it early enough, you'll recover before he does and win the trade (assuming you had fire or electric arrows).

Up klose you mostly want to D1~Savage since his D1 is so good at kounter poking and then he gets the advantage.

Midrange is where you'll want to be though against Staff. Once he finds that you kan beat him out of Flying Grayson, you kan start to Savage Blast to null his advance.

In Escrima the match up is easier and I don't feel like getting into that right now. Just don't forget about his Auto Kross Ups with strings into Flip Kick. And learn the spacing on that as it doesn't always kross up.

If any of you guys find a way to Oki him while he's in Escrima the let me know. I've tried to before but I kouldn't find much outside of "stay midrange and hope he wakes up with Flying Grayson"
Regarding wakeups, in escrima his most invincible one is escrima fury, but it's -24 on block so most nw's wont just throw it out most of the time. If you want, you can cross up j3 him, it blows up everyone of his wakeups besides flip kick, but neither attack hits so you are still safe.

You pretty much covered everything else besides the obvious "save a bar for pushblock"
 

Red Reaper

The Hyrax Whisperer
Regarding wakeups, in escrima his most invincible one is escrima fury, but it's -24 on block so most nw's wont just throw it out most of the time. If you want, you can cross up j3 him, it blows up everyone of his wakeups besides flip kick, but neither attack hits so you are still safe.

You pretty much covered everything else besides the obvious "save a bar for pushblock"
lol... I meant to say staff..

I fixed it! I was wondering why you were helping me out on Escrima wake ups... Haha.

Thanx. Meant Staff, though.
 

Mikemetroid

Who hired this guy, WTF?
Moderator
Premium Supporter
Mike sucks at this game btw. Jimmypotato
has trouble with this game's inputs lol cause this game is shit.

I will say though I have faith enough that 7L will defeat any Grundy in tournament. Granted there is only like maybe 3 or 4 of us to worry about.
 

Chongo

Dead Kings Rise
lol... I meant to say staff..

I fixed it! I was wondering why you were helping me out on Escrima wake ups... Haha.

Thanx. Meant Staff, though.
I'm pretty sure that crossing over in staff would work as well, you'd probably go over flying grayson and might be able to zone him out, I'm not sure though as I cannot test atm.

If all else fails just crouch block.
 

LEGEND

YES!
Premium Supporter
i was doing a write up on the Grundy MU but in the middle of it my power went out so i lost the whole thing :(

Short version: GA has nothing Special in this MU, the usual options that basically everyone has to deal with grundy are still the best options and opening up grundy with arrow is damn near impossible

only way GA really gets damage outside of making reads in Grundy's mix-ups is by baiting a movement/normal and punishing it with Stinger or savage blast.

definitely not in GA's favor
 

Red Reaper

The Hyrax Whisperer
I'm pretty sure that crossing over in staff would work as well, you'd probably go over flying grayson and might be able to zone him out, I'm not sure though as I cannot test atm.

If all else fails just crouch block.

From my testing jumping over doesn't really punish anything and depending on the kombo Staff kan hit him out of it. That's not really oki..

I think I have something though. I'm going to practice up and test all of Green Arrow's oki again and maybe I'll kompile something.

I'm torn between Martian and Arrow. Don't know who to focus on. I lean more toward Arrow because I feel liberated using him and he's my favorite character in this game but Martian is stronger in more match ups. (Though with Martian I hate the big characters)
 

Red Reaper

The Hyrax Whisperer
i was doing a write up on the Grundy MU but in the middle of it my power went out so i lost the whole thing :(

Short version: GA has nothing Special in this MU, the usual options that basically everyone has to deal with grundy are still the best options and opening up grundy with arrow is damn near impossible

only way GA really gets damage outside of making reads in Grundy's mix-ups is by baiting a movement/normal and punishing it with Stinger or savage blast.

definitely not in GA's favor

The ungrabable frames are what really make this match up not so bad for Arrow. It kould possibly become 5-5 if the Arrow player is super on point. I'll have to see..

I have some theories on the match up just not enough experience.
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
The ungrabable frames are what really make this match up not so bad for Arrow. It kould possibly become 5-5 if the Arrow player is super on point. I'll have to see..

I have some theories on the match up just not enough experience.
but its not

lol. WC and Trait aren't the ONLY moves Grundy uses. his standing 2 reaches to you at the start of a match. He can basically react to arrows 3/4 screen back.

and teh biggest thing.... anytime you try to do any type of oki.... you're removing your option to MB B3 my wakeup attack. I can just react to how you move at all times.

Then you add the 50% and larger BnB's two every one of your low damage bnbs....
anytime you hit me with a savage blast ... you're just giving me meter to kill you in one read.

GA needs like triple the amount of good guesses to beat a Grundy.
Sure its possible. But it is no way easy.
 
Hi to everyone that wields the bow. Im new to this forum (TYM) and I want to start saying thank you. I have been watching green arrow's threads since the game came out, and all of you guys helped me understand my character (green arrow) and other MUs. Once the last patch was released everyone was so hyped about GA, but now its seems a lot of people understand that the MUs are a little better but we still have a lot of work to do. Dont get discouraged because you have to work your way to victory, on the contrary, think about that feeling when you win even when you know the odds aren't in your favor. That was all i wanted to say to the people and the forum for now, now to the main topic the MUs.

I have a lot of experience with a lot of match ups but first i want to discuss my worst one: SUPERMAN

I know you guys don't like to throw numbers but to me its 7-3.

I will state my reasons why i think so:

7 (or 8 don't remember) frame jab, this means he can interrupt any posible mix up with the arrow.

He has good mobility, its hard to catch him since he has a good foward, backdash and airdash.

Lasers, he can literally run the whole game throwing lasers at you ( the lame game). You will not catch him (if its a good superman) and everyone laser does more than 8% I believe. Sure you can try to outzone him, but its really hard when they only do diagonal lasers in the ground. You have no way to get in (the obvious one dash every time you block a laser). And your arrows (fire or electric) gives you too much time on the recovery so a lot of the time you will end up trading with him (in the best case scenario) or you will get hit and block the arrow. The point on this is if you decide to zone, you WILL lose in the course of the match. He can throw lasers a lot more frecuently than we can and they do more chip than our arrows.

Damage output, obvious his combos do more damage than ours ( taking about the BnBs here ). So you will have to guess correctly a few more times than him, taking lasers and dealing with an 8 frame combo starter.

8 frame combo starter, its hard to deal with this move up close, because the only thing you have against that is your 7 frame jab. You have to play it really safe and smart. After F+2,3 breath u have the option of going into your D+1 to stop his next F+2,3 breath or you can also backdash. If you throw your D+1 and he waits half a second and continue his next F+2,3, you will whiff the D+1 and he will punish. Every other string GA just isnt fast enough to compete in this MU.

These are some of the reasons i think this is a hard MU for GA. I WROTE IN HERE TODAY TO SEE IF YOU GUYS CAN HELP ME IN THIS MU. I don't know if I'm aproching the MU incorrectly or if there is some kind of strategy against him.

I didn't see anything about that particular MU in here yet. Please excuse me if you guys have it in any other thread, i read this one as it is the most recent one. If you guys have it in any other thread, tell me or i would if you could share the link with me i would appreciate it.

I will later share with all of you guys information about other particular MUs.
 

Jimmypotato

Mid Tier
Updated OP with Match up Info from posts in the thread. I would also like to add stuff like quick pointers for the match ups as well like:

Basic Approach:
Best Footsie Tool(s):
Super Reset Match Up:

Stuff like that, for people just skimming, or even people trying to brush up.

After a GTA hiatus I'll be back on the grind.

lok0raiikid welcome to the forum, I was going to do a Superman write up but I know for a fact LEGEND has alotta great superman players in his area and can probably provide a more in depth analysis of the match, so I will leave it for him if he wants, if not I will break it down. It is def a tough match up for Arrow as you stated and provided reasons for in your post, but maybe we can give you some ideas and different strats to help you out.

Welcome, and don't ever be shy to post anything, the Arrow forum is basically dickhead free, and we like it that way :)