Match-up Discussion Green Arrow In Depth Match Up Discussion (1.06)

[Gilbagz]

Gilbagz, you're both canadian.

Joker has alot of options, jumping is just one. D2, D3, crowbar, early J3 etc. Focusing on one opens up the others.

And like I said, the Joker you were playing was not doing J3 properly since just by frame data what you say is done on anticipation only IF the Joker player does it right.

I'm Australian LOL

 

[Qwark28]

I'm Australian LOL

potato potuhto

 

[Gilbagz]

potato potuhto

I'll take that :L

Edit:
Btw i've mucked around with that j3 timing where it becomes ridiculously hard to aa
It beats them out if they try to aa d2
however, if they just sit in crouch block the j3 whiffs and they can d2 you after the j3 whiffs or they can just trip guard punish you (granted it is a really bad idea to just sit and crouch block, however if people catch on you will get punished)
Unless there is a timing where the j3 catches the crouch and still comes out at a height to beat the d2
From what i've tested, all characters can aa the j3
Based on the height you do it at, there are different timings but all characters can do it (based on the d2 itself too and whether or not it moves their hurtbox up when they input the d2)
max range j3's are hard to aa though, but then it becomes easy for them to walk out out of range and trip guard punish

just my 2c from what i've tested

 

[Qwark28]

I'll take that :L

Didnt you go to the canada cup?

 

[Gilbagz]

Didnt you go to the canada cup?

nope lol
went to shadowloo showdown in Melbourne

 

[Qwark28]

nope lol
went to shadowloo showdown in Melbourne

k im tripping today

 

[Qwark28]

i thought shadowloo showdown was in australia

 

[Qwark28]

I'll take that :L

Edit:
Btw i've mucked around with that j3 timing where it becomes ridiculously hard to aa
It beats them out if they try to aa d2
however, if they just sit in crouch block the j3 whiffs and they can d2 you after the j3 whiffs or they can just trip guard punish you (granted it is a really bad idea to just sit and crouch block, however if people catch on you will get punished)
Unless there is a timing where the j3 catches the crouch and still comes out at a height to beat the d2
From what i've tested, all characters can aa the j3
Based on the height you do it at, there are different timings but all characters can do it (based on the d2 itself too and whether or not it moves their hurtbox up when they input the d2)
max range j3's are hard to aa though, but then it becomes easy for them to walk out out of range and trip guard punish

just my 2c from what i've tested

there is a height where they cannot AA and it doesn't whiff on crouch, I do it a lot when i play, watch some of my footage vs WW when im not j3ing just to throw it out as an air to air

 

[Gilbagz]

i thought shadowloo showdown was in australia

Melbourne, Australia
Capital city of Victoria

alright enough of this, derailed this thread enough lol

there is a height where they cannot AA and it doesn't whiff on crouch, I do it a lot when i play, watch some of my footage vs WW when im not j3ing just to throw it out as an air to air

yeah i'll check it out when I have more time
got exams coming up

 

[Jimmypotato]

k im tripping today

You need to check a map bro, even though he's not Canadian, the country is big man, I don't know every single canadian player there is lol. let alone have played them before.

If I can find the match footage I'll post it and show you.

 

[Jimmypotato]

Gilbagz, you're both canadian.

Joker has alot of options, jumping is just one. D2, D3, crowbar, early J3 etc. Focusing on one opens up the others.

And like I said, the Joker you were playing was not doing J3 properly since just by frame data what you say is done on anticipation only IF the Joker player does it right.

Dude, NRS Frame data?? That is only start up frames on the move, not active frames, and it might not even be right. So don't tell me I can't do something that I do, and have done and use the Frame data to support your argument.

 

[Qwark28]

Dude, NRS Frame data?? That is only start up frames on the move, not active frames, and it might not even be right. So don't tell me I can't do something that I do, and have done and use the Frame data to support your argument.

Fair point then.

But I will insist on the Joker player not doing the J3 right.

 

[ando1184]

I only fight online and I don't think the majority of the Harley's I fight are really the best ones to get matchup experience from....but for what it's worth I think you had the general right idea at the end of the fight. I feel like most of the advice I can give you've probably already figured out. Note, again I'm an online warrior and I haven't really messed around with the lab with a lot of this stuff....someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on anything..

-Use jumping 3 sparingly. Harley's air to airs are just too good to rely on it, and most good Harley players I've seen love the air to air game. I try to only use J3 if I'm jumping backward since your hitbox seems to beat hers in that case. Otherwise I try to break my habbits and stick with J1.

-Dead on seems really useful in negating her wakeup game, and I noticed you started doing this near the end. I'm not sure how plus it is (if at all), but I usually seem to get a free d1 arrow whether it hits the wakeup or they block.

-Her zoning isn't as bad as it used to be thanks to the low arrow buff...but all she's had to do to adapt it seems is mix in more air shots. One thing I've been trying to do lately is is mix in the slide a lot more into my game. The timing and spacing are really difficult, but a well placed slide can get you underneath her normal gunshots and the forward movement will prevent air shots from hitting either, and it gets you in a lot closer. This isn't something to be relied upon constantly, but it can definitely be unexpected.

-one last thing on airshots: can't remember if this was in the video or not but while you can try to punish them with air ice arrow, Harley can meterburn the move and that extra little hop seems to place her just a little bit to high for the arrow to reach.

Thanks for this, regardless if you're strictly online or not every little bit helps and I appreciate the feedback. I've taken note and will apply this more into my game for this MU.

 

[Scoot Magee]

Against Mmh you can forward dash and punish his overhead teleport. I think it's pretty practical to do on reaction. If you have. 2 bars or an ice arrow you can get a nice punish. Though I don't know if it's practical to determine which teleport Mmh is going to use do its kind of a guess.

 

[Cossner]

Against Mmh you can forward dash and punish his overhead teleport. I think it's pretty practical to do on reaction. If you have. 2 bars or an ice arrow you can get a nice punish. Though I don't know if it's practical to determine which teleport Mmh is going to use do its kind of a guess.

This is what I found out:

Best punish for blocked normal teleport meterless without arrow: j2 -> 223 xx Hurricane Blade (26%) or j2 -> 111 xx load arrow (19%)
Best punish for overhead teleport meterless without arrow: d1 -> f2d13 xx Stinger (17%) or Load arrow (12%).

If you don't have either 2 bars or ice arrow, you're risking all the damage he gets from the teleport (39%) for 17/12% in your guess. Not worth it lol. If you have an arrow though, you get your 26% bnb or 30% reset with a guess (38% if you have 2 bars). So you pretty much need to be fully loaded to do any damage -_-

 

[Duck Nation]

MMH is what makes me want to just throw the fucking towel in on Arrow and play Aquaman. I can suffer being low tier, but that match. That match.

 

[Scoot Magee]

Best punish for blocked normal teleport meterless without arrow: j2 -> 223 xx Hurricane Blade (26%) or j2 -> 111 xx load arrow (19%)
Best punish for overhead teleport meterless without arrow: d1 -> f2d13 xx Stinger (17%) or Load arrow (12%).

If you don't have either 2 bars or ice arrow, you're risking all the damage he gets from the teleport (39%) for 17/12% in your guess. Not worth it lol. If you have an arrow though, you get your 26% bnb or 30% reset with a guess (38% if you have 2 bars). So you pretty much need to be fully loaded to do any damage -_-

So what you're saying is that you shouldn't even try to dash under the overhead teleport unless you have 2 bars or an ice arrow right? If so I agree 100 because of the risk of eating a normal teleport.

 

[Cossner]

So what you're saying is that you shouldn't even try to dash under the overhead teleport unless you have 2 bars or an ice arrow right? If so I agree 100 because of the risk of eating a normal teleport.

Yes.

 

[TigerBombs]

I've realized that this char has gone to shit after the patch. I knew he would drop down in tier placement as IGAU's metagame evolved, but the patch just sped up the process.

 

[SimSim]

I've realized that this char has gone to shit after the patch. I knew he would drop down in tier placement as IGAU's metagame evolved, but the patch just sped up the process.

I would argue that GA is stronger after the patch because of Stinger buff and damage buff on MB b3/f3. Why do you think this patch had the opposite effect? Don't get me wrong though. I don't think GA is particularly good.

 

[TigerBombs]

I would argue that GA is stronger after the patch because of Stinger buff and damage buff on MB b3/f3. Why do you think this patch had the opposite effect? Don't get me wrong though. I don't think GA is particularly good.

Because other chars were buffed, Arrow was indirectly nerfed.

 

[SimSim]

Because other chars were buffed, Arrow was indirectly nerfed.

Except other characters was nerfed too. I think I might agree with you though. Even though Superman and Black Adam got nerfed, they still beat GA, and other characters was buffed more than GA, so he fell on the tier list all together. (But remember that d4 avoiding a lot of projectiles should have made a big difference in a lots of matchups too)

 

[THTB]

Where GA stands is not going to be settled until further on. GA's buffs are significant, though. MB stinger on block theoretically gives him a mid-range footsies option, and low arrow properly reducing hitbox, I'd imagine, is a big help, too. I think once the advantages of the changes really get applied, then you can say. You can't just look at everyone else's changes, and ignore GA's, because they have an impact on matchups as well.

 

[TigerBombs]

Where GA stands is not going to be settled until further on. GA's buffs are significant, though. MB stinger on block theoretically gives him a mid-range footsies option, and low arrow properly reducing hitbox, I'd imagine, is a big help, too. I think once the advantages of the changes really get applied, then you can say. You can't just look at everyone else's changes, and ignore GA's, because they have an impact on matchups as well.

MB Stinger didn't change much.. If they changed the startup on slide so he could punish things like GL's lift, Raven's soul crush, or Trident Rush midscreen, then it could be considered a significant buff. I actually think that Duck Nation's tier list had Arrow in the right spot.

 

[THTB]

MB Stinger didn't change much.. If they changed the startup on slide so he could punish things like GL's lift, Raven's soul crush, or Trident Rush midscreen, then it could be considered a significant buff. I actually think that Duck Nation's tier list had Arrow in the right spot.

There aren't that many characters that even punish trident anyway.

Blocked soul crush = MB stinger on block, which is at least something to work with.

GL lift is punished by reversal stinger.