Match-Up Discussion - Goro Goro MU Discussion Thread

[Espio]

Can someone help me out with Cyber Kano MU plz? I literally just got knifed to death, EX Knives actually stop EX Punch Walk, fireballs aren't helping me at all, and anti-aired for days sending me back to full screen. Once I do finally get in tho (usually in the corner) its a wrap but getting in is the problem. I literally cannot catch this character, id rather fight a freakin Kitana just simply because I can duck her projectile smh. I have to switch to Jax just to do anything. Fast mid knives plz!

Im maining Tigrar Goro as my secondary character. I feel so much more comfortable with the tools Tigrar has to offer over the other 2 variations.

Kitana's zoning is still better than Kano's due to the chip damage, conversion capabilities and space control versatility provided. Kano's knives do meh chip and your goal shouldn't be to outright outzone him. Periodic trades mostly work fine as damage is greater for us. If he's anti-airing you every time you jump, you're jumping too much to get in when it's really unnecessary. Just walk your way in and play around forward 3 range where you can walk back and whiff punish back 1 into full combo. The only way he should be reacting to ex punchwalk to beat it with ex knives is if you're throwing it out super far away. He has no really scary mix ups so it's purely about patience and footsies and as you said, if he gets cornered, it's a wrap. Kano in cybernetic is super a straightforward to fight.

 

[BiPolarExxpress]

@BunLantern Why do you feel Jason vs Goro is even? Just experience from playing both characters, but Goro all the tools against Jason lol. B122 becomes even more risky since it's a punish, wayyy quicker/longer pokes, and can literally shut down Jason in the corner. Not to mention in Kuatan you're the one controlling Jasons movement. He still does have a good neutral, but Goro does a good job of taking it away from him.

Only other ones I don't agree with is Kitana as losing, really feels even, and Liu Kang being even. What gives you trouble in those matchups?

Good start for a list though!

Edit, noticed the part where it says Tigrar only. That makes a bit more sense. In that case I'll add Kuatan beats Jason, although I feel the others do as well. Also, Dragon Fangs vs Liu kang. Tigrar Fury vs Kitana.

 

[BunLantern]

@BunLantern Why do you feel Jason vs Goro is even? Just experience from playing both characters, but Goro all the tools against Jason lol. B122 becomes even more risky since it's a punish, wayyy quicker/longer pokes, and can literally shut down Jason in the corner. Not to mention in Kuatan you're the one controlling Jasons movement. He still does have a good neutral, but Goro does a good job of taking it away from him.

Only other ones I don't agree with is Kitana as losing, really feels even, and Liu Kang being even. What gives you trouble in those matchups?

Good start for a list though!

Edit, noticed the part where it says Tigrar only. That makes a bit more sense. In that case I'll add Kuatan beats Jason, although I feel the others do as well. Also, Dragon Fangs vs Liu kang. Tigrar Fury vs Kitana.

First of all I really shouldn't have included Unstoppable in there because I never play against that variant, sort of an oversight lol. But anyways, from a TF standpoint against Slasher there really isn't any zoning advantage on either side, Jason is a little less meter dependent for damage and can more easily anti air, Goro has better pokes and can really abuse Jason on a knockdown. Now that I'm typing it out Goro's upsides might outweigh Slasher Jason's if only by a little.

Relentless seems to fare better with it's tools. MB teleport is useful as an anti zoning tool and the red screen move is just an awesome move that gives Jason a severe footsie and mind game advantage. He still has the problem of having worse pokes but I think the other 2 tools make up for it enough to at least call this even. As a side question, how useful is MB teleport as a wake up option?

Kitana got easier after the patch when fireball became faster and stomp became less punishable but it doesn't change the core problem that she controls the pace of the match and builds meter for free against Goro (not to mention her damn hitbox). Even if you play the match perfectly and make it all the way across the screen to her through Fans (or glaives) she's going to have a meter advantage throughout the match unless she goes for her Xray which is actually a solid mix up when you've been trained to block low and try to tech throws all match.
All 3 variations have a way to pause in the air which is super useful for baiting out a MB (or normal) punchwalk, and a good amount of the time even if you read the air stall punchwalk will tip her for 1-2% damage and Goro will keep walking all the way to the other end of the screen giving her what she wanted anyway. I will say MB stomp is beautiful in this matchup if you have an Instant Air Fan happy Kitana. This matchup isn't awful but I honestly don't know how it wouldn't be in Kitana's favor.

No way Liu Kang is even for TF Goro. Low fireball negates any zoning Tigrar can do, stomp is easily punished for huge damage, MB windmill punch can beat out MB Punchwalk if timed right, and he can buffer gaps with parry to blow up MB punchwalk. So essentially we take damage just for trying to hit him AND lose the meter. His mobility is much better than Goro's, he out damages him, his pressure is better and he controls the pace of the match. I will say that Dragon's fire is a bit easier than Flame fist but not by much. I've played his match against quite a few good LKs including Empr_Murk who's an awesome LK. Not impossible for Goro but it's a struggle.

 

[BiPolarExxpress]

Didn't see it was only Tigrar at first, I was going as all 3 variations being a choice. I'll try and touch on both perspectives.

Against Slasher he still doesn't really have great buttons, you just need to walk in lol. Against Relentless you still get all the pressure in the world as Tigrar, tele has to be on a read. Kuatan actually controls the pace super well, and teleport doesn't work since it has no invincibility frames. If he mb teleports full screen ground pound just shoots him out the other direction. It's a feasible wakeup depending on the matchup, but not so much against Goro. You can literally 3d3 in the corner, and none of his pokes will reach. Goro pretty much gets free pressure unless Jason burns a bar after that. Plus you have the regular Goro oki. There's also tricks to Red Screen. It's a bit over 100 frames of startup. Off of f44 it's pretty safe against most of the cast, but with Goro just use stomp and take the gamble. Hell, if anyone raw red screens you have time to get a few jumps in and JK or JIP them lol. So Tigrar teleport is a bit more of a threat, but Kuatan just controls the matchup. Relentless does have a great neutral for sure, but the payoff just isn't enough which is more of a problem of Jason being an undertuned character.

She can build meter. but even with meter she's taking a massive risk as we lock her down up close. I feel Tigrar can play a pretty decent anti zoning game, since the projectile hits harder and has help with the reduced recovery. I normally play characters who plod in slowly, so used to that type of playstyle lol. TBH it feels super even, as both have distinct advantages on certain parts of the screen that tend to cancel the other one out. Her buttons upclose are pretty damn bad.

For Tigrar I can see it more rough than Dragon Fangs. This is a way more tough MU online though. You can't really zone Kang so it's a fair point. Kang has pretty big gaps, so we're basically forcing him to use meter on a guess that we'll press a button. Also, it can blow punchwalk up on certain timing, but that means they have to read and commit to the fact you'll use punchwalk. Parry is a massive risk which is super punishable. The option is there for sure, but if he's going to keep using armor on his cancels then he runs out of meter pretty quick. All variations can pressure him pretty well since he has pretty slow buttons, but I feel Dragon Fangs does it the best. Spin is only -3, and I believe Kang's d1 is 9? and d3 (which is +) is 12. You can literally poke, command grab, do whatever you want after lol. He has to hold a post special game. I think he can D2 out, but that's super risky. I do have a lot more Dragon's Fire experience than Flame Fist, but have still played it a decent amount. I think Dragon's Fire struggles a lot against Goro.

This is why I feel the variation system is actually decent for Goro, he has 3 different options for 3 different matchups right there.

 

[Espio]

Kitana got easier after the patch when fireball became faster and stomp became less punishable but it doesn't change the core problem that she controls the pace of the match and builds meter for free against Goro (not to mention her damn hitbox). Even if you play the match perfectly and make it all the way across the screen to her through Fans (or glaives) she's going to have a meter advantage throughout the match unless she goes for her Xray which is actually a solid mix up when you've been trained to block low and try to tech throws all match.
All 3 variations have a way to pause in the air which is super useful for baiting out a MB (or normal) punchwalk, and a good amount of the time even if you read the air stall punchwalk will tip her for 1-2% damage and Goro will keep walking all the way to the other end of the screen giving her what she wanted anyway. I will say MB stomp is beautiful in this matchup if you have an Instant Air Fan happy Kitana. This matchup isn't awful but I honestly don't know how it wouldn't be in Kitana's favor.

No way Liu Kang is even for TF Goro. Low fireball negates any zoning Tigrar can do, stomp is easily punished for huge damage, MB windmill punch can beat out MB Punchwalk if timed right, and he can buffer gaps with parry to blow up MB punchwalk. So essentially we take damage just for trying to hit him AND lose the meter. His mobility is much better than Goro's, he out damages him, his pressure is better and he controls the pace of the match. I will say that Dragon's fire is a bit easier than Flame fist but not by much. I've played his match against quite a few good LKs including Empr_Murk who's an awesome LK. Not impossible for Goro but it's a struggle.

I mean, if we only focus on things she has over him then I agree. Let's talk about footsies/ranged normals: Goro's forward 3 is 16 frames and outranges her fastest advancing launching option of Forward 1. The only advancing mid she has of comparable range is her forward 2, which is 19 frames (nearly 20 frames, which a lot of people complain in terms of advancing mids being slow). So at neutral range Goro outfootsies her and her comparative range option is slower so he should control the neutral pretty well.

Up close his pokes are just superior. Even comparing Back 1 punchwalk with back 1,4, both lead to good damage, short ranged mids. Both can be cancelled into plus frames, but only Goro can actually take advantage of the frames. He' just in general better than her up close, faster too. She has to make hard reads to get up off the ground and due to all of her wake ups being unsafe/punishable on block, the risk reward is always either in Goro's favor or even. Prior to her ex DP buff, she probably lost this cause she couldn't even get enough damage off of her rising fans to make the risk/reward not notably slanted in his favor.

He can punish most strings cancelled into fan toss with command grab on block or fans up close in general, this is significant as well.

Kitana outzones him and sets the pace, but setting the pace alone is not grounds for losing a match up especially when Goro has lots of notable advantages on her up close, in neutral and on knockdown.

Kitana never needs meter for much of anything, this is a universal advantage she has against almost anyone. The X-ray mix up is something that EVERYONE has to deal with when fighting Kitana, not just Goro or Mileena, but EVERYONE so it can't really be argued as a match up specific advantage. Kitana also got her damage nerfed (not the end of the world, but anything that weakens a character improves the match up for their opponent).



It's the burden of being a big body, you can make it all up in a couple correct reads and if you knock her down, sometimes she might not get up again till the next round starts. It's one of my favorite match ups as both a Kitana and Goro user, not sold on why it isn't 5-5.


Not that I encourage zoning as a primary strategy versus this character (Liu Kang), but why can't you check him with low fireball and if you trade, he gets knocked down and you don't so you can approach? Seems like an oversimplification of the zoning. Regardless, I wouldn't be focusing too much on that. I don't know the Liu Kang match up so I'm not gonna weigh in at all, but that particular point is very striking to me.

 

[Metzos]

Against characters with fast advancing normals (examples are Cassie Cage, KK, KL, Jason, Jax etc) pick DF. You ll remember me when you do. He just outpokes all of those characters and forces them to do stupid things in order to get in. DF's d1 is stupidly good. Remember DD? Looks like he is back and he has four arms instead of two.

 

[Metzos]

@BunLantern Why do you feel Jason vs Goro is even? Just experience from playing both characters, but Goro all the tools against Jason lol. B122 becomes even more risky since it's a punish, wayyy quicker/longer pokes, and can literally shut down Jason in the corner. Not to mention in Kuatan you're the one controlling Jasons movement. He still does have a good neutral, but Goro does a good job of taking it away from him.

Only other ones I don't agree with is Kitana as losing, really feels even, and Liu Kang being even. What gives you trouble in those matchups?

Good start for a list though!

Edit, noticed the part where it says Tigrar only. That makes a bit more sense. In that case I'll add Kuatan beats Jason, although I feel the others do as well. Also, Dragon Fangs vs Liu kang. Tigrar Fury vs Kitana.

DF does better than KW against Jason. His d1 simply stops whatever Jason throws at him, which helps Goro immensely in that sweet sweep range in the particular MU. @Hidan.

Against Slasher, pick either KW or TF. Against Unstoppable and Relentless, pick DF.

 

[Hidan]

@BiPolarExxpress
@Metzos is right about the variations. Better pressure jason than zone him, plus DF d1 too stronk for spacing

 

[Agilaz]

Any advice on Gunslinger Erron? I feel like walking in on him might be the only option besides a very well timed stomp, the problem is that up close EB has the advantage - but then he also has advantage pretty much anywhere on the screen. And walking means a good amount of chip damage AND meter for him.

I'm mainly talking about how to get around his gunshot specials, EB's 21122 still being -1 is another issue altogether.

 

[Vintagesoul]

Any advice on Gunslinger Erron? I feel like walking in on him might be the only option besides a very well timed stomp, the problem is that up close EB has the advantage - but then he also has advantage pretty much anywhere on the screen. And walking means a good amount of chip damage AND meter for him.

I'm mainly talking about how to get around his gunshot specials, EB's 21122 still being -1 is another issue altogether.

Which variation are you using?

 

[Agilaz]

Which variation are you using?

I was using Kuatan Warrior. I can play the others too, but didn't get around to trying TF cause the dude had to leave.

 

[JustPressingButtons]

Any advice on Gunslinger Erron? I feel like walking in on him might be the only option besides a very well timed stomp, the problem is that up close EB has the advantage - but then he also has advantage pretty much anywhere on the screen. And walking means a good amount of chip damage AND meter for him.

I'm mainly talking about how to get around his gunshot specials, EB's 21122 still being -1 is another issue altogether.

Well, Erron Black's only true block string that goes into low gunshot is the 21122 string on the final hit, and the low shots has a gap on his final shot you can punish with armor. Plus up close, you have superior pokes compared to him, only trouble Goro should have is advancing in. But when you're in, you're free to do whatever to Erron seeing how his only reversal option is EX Slide or EX Command Grab, but those options are very punishable and don't lead to much.

Getting around the zoning, walk in, he'll corner himself, and if you're Kuatan Warrior use the occasional Ground Pound. Tigrar Fury you can check with your fireballs, and remember the standoff stance aren't true block strings so if you see it from any string besides 21122, just poke out or armor out.

 

[Agilaz]

Well, Erron Black's only true block string that goes into low gunshot is the 21122 string on the final hit, and the low shots has a gap on his final shot you can punish with armor. Plus up close, you have superior pokes compared to him, only trouble Goro should have is advancing in. But when you're in, you're free to do whatever to Erron seeing how his only reversal option is EX Slide or EX Command Grab, but those options are very punishable and don't lead to much.

Getting around the zoning, walk in, he'll corner himself, and if you're Kuatan Warrior use the occasional Ground Pound. Tigrar Fury you can check with your fireballs, and remember the standoff stance aren't true block strings so if you see it from any string besides 21122, just poke out or armor out.

So basically get in and go ham? Cause looking back I did respect EB's game too much, I let him get his 21122 game on and ended up guessing wrong too many times.

 

[Vintagesoul]

In my experience, TF outzones Gunslinger. So Gunslinger is forced to come in or use Ex slide to go through Flameballs.

 

[JustPressingButtons]

So basically get in and go ham? Cause looking back I did respect EB's game too much, I let him get his 21122 game on and ended up guessing wrong too many times.

Yup, don't allow him to start up his game, and your options are better up close, and his defensive options are rather weak in Gunslinger. And if Erron Black does 21122~EX Sand Grenade please don't hold another stand 2 because it's only +7 and high (not guaranteed block string). He only gets a D1 at most.

 

[Mortal Komhat]

HQT/Cutie Pie Predator.

I posit that if he gets half-screen on us we're fucked.

I wish to hear your theories.

 

[Espio]

HQT/Cutie Pie Predator.

I posit that if he gets half-screen on us we're fucked.

I wish to hear your theories.

The best thing going for Goro versus Predator is how vulnerable Predator is to oki and pressure on knockdown. Back 1,2,1 breaking armor on him is huge due to the plus frames so you even if he just blocks it remains your turn. He has a big hitbox that strengthens your offense as well. I might use Dragon Fangs for this cause I'm skeptical Goro can keep up zoning/counter zoning HQT in Kuatan or Tigrar anyway and Dragon Fangs amplifies what Goro does well against Predator. I really need to play this match up more, but the zoning is definitely very real.

 

[Mortal Komhat]

In my very limited experience, getting back in on him is extremely difficult hence why I said that. At half-screen I'd be tempted to go for a yolo EX PW since IIRC I don't think he can do anything against that but block. As fast as the ex plasma is, it won't punch through the armor and you'll reach before the third one comes out.

I'd need to test it to be sure.

 

[EMPEROR_KNICKS]

The liu kang vs goro matchup is bad for goro, i play this matchup a lot against my friend Empr_Murk and basically if i get him in the corner or pressure him its harder for liu,but liu has godlike spacing and zoning, if goro tries to counter zone he low profiles it, if you jump at liu without a bar for punchwalk you are eating a b2, if you stomp and try to control where it goes liu can just run and you eat b2, and then liu also has great pressure and goro (anyone in general)cant armor through lius true block strings, so goro has a tough time getting in, the matchup is also dependent on if the liu player messes up, because if he does he is eating 33 percent or more. Basically all of goros variations against all of lius is 6-4 lius favor.

 

[ArmageddonUMK]

what variation do you guys use against kotal (war god mostly, but other variation advice would help)? DF makes sense on paper, but I am just now learning goro I'm sure someone else is more familiar with the MU

 

[EMPEROR_KNICKS]

what variation do you guys use against kotal (war god mostly, but other variation advice would help)? DF makes sense on paper, but I am just now learning goro I'm sure someone else is more familiar with the MU

Use either kuatan or dragons fangs, because if kotal does his low or over head sword you can punish it with chest lunge, or low fang.

 

[Pterodactyl]

Liu Kang absolutely slaughters me in DF, how do I deal with his seemingly gapless pressure and zoning?

 

[Espio]

Liu Kang absolutely slaughters me in DF, how do I deal with his seemingly gapless pressure and zoning?

@BiPolarExxpress

 

[BiPolarExxpress]

Liu Kang absolutely slaughters me in DF, how do I deal with his seemingly gapless pressure and zoning?

Well to start sometimes you just have to hold that chip. Walking through zoning is necessary with Dragon Fangs. In terms of gapless pressure what is getting you? You do have to hold cancels, but you also need to keep an eye on the stamina bar. Liu is pretty much going to be doing ex bicycle kick to try and restart the pressure, and that's when you get out. He's only +2, so no matter the follow up you have an advantage since his moves are pretty slow. Goro has 2 6 frame pokes and a 7 frame command grab, while liu has pretty slow pokes, but a 7f d2. Under Goro pressure liu's options are literally armor, since the frame data just doesn't add up. His d3 on block is +1, but doesn't have any followups after, you're pretty much free to hit buttons again.

So basically, on the ex bicycle kick challenge to get out of pressure and dominate the up close game. Once you're on offense, pressure till your heart is content. This is one matchup I'm actually extremely comfortable with Goro.

 

[Pterodactyl]

I probably should have specified that by DF I mean Dragon's Fire and not Dragon Fangs.

Either way your advice works, thanks!