Match-Up Discussion - Goro Goro MU Discussion Thread

[Gurg]

Yep it's still really rough, and Goro will still have to chase her forever, but if it means she can't get get away for free when he finally catches her - I'll take it!

 

[SPY]

Tanya options with Goro options:
*Goro common options is block, jump, exPW, normal~exPW, exStomp, normal~exStomp. 3d3.
*I use d1 because it's mid, hit her out the air, have least total frames, good active and fast recovery.
*If there is no Goro option specified - means that option is punishable or escapable.
Block - -4f on exPW\d1~exPW. exStomp is evadable(d1~exStomp is much easier to evade) and punishable. -2f on 3d3.
Backdash - combo on exPW. D1 will hit depending on it's meatiness, you will have advantage on wiff but she escapes. exStomp is evadable and punishable(if d1 hits, d1~exStomp is harder to evade).
Wake up delay - d1 will hit depending on it's meatiness, you will have advantage on wiff allowing you to do any option again or do mix up(depending on short\long delay).
exSpiral Arrow - full combo on block. Full combo on any jump(harder to punish if you jump over her). Combo on exPW(d1~exPW gives bit better combo). 10%+HKD and advantage on exStomp(16% on d1~exStomp).
exFlip Kick - full combo on block. Full combo on any jump(harder to punish if you jump over her). Combo on exPW(d1~exPW gives better combo). 10%+HKD and advantage on exStomp(16% on d1~exStomp). 3d3 for a combo.
exTonfa Swipe - SG on block. Full combo on any jumps(harder to punish if you jump over her, she will hit you out NJP sometimes). Combo on exPW(d1~exPW gives better combo).
exDust - Full combo on JBP and NJP. Combo on exPW(d1~exPW gives better combo). 16% on d1~exStomp. 3d3 for a combo.
exTeleport - since there is no armor on it after a patch, you just need any meaty hit for a combo(She is airborne on 1st frame!). d1~exPW is best universal option.
If you miss your meaty d1 you can:
1) Ground pound\Chest Lunge her on landing if she do nothing or air normal\command normal or air FB after exBTeleport.
a) NJP, exStomp, low profile and whiff punish her on landing or d1~PW\exPW\CL\SG\b4 her out the air if she do air normals\Cnormals after follow up FTeleport.
b) Ground pound\Stomp\exStomp\FB her on landing after follow up BTeleport.
2) exStomp her or block if she do air attack after exFTeleport. You can try to low profile into d1~PW\exPW\CL\SG\b4, but it's very risky.
a) Ground pound\Stomp\exStomp\FB her on landing after follow up FTeleport.
b) NJP, exStomp, low profile and whiff punish her on landing or d1~PW\exPW\CL\SG\b4 her out the air if she do air normals\Cnormals after follow up BTeleport.
*If there is no certain option it's mean that it unavaible

Goro can punish all her wake up attacks besides exLSpin Kick and exTonfa Swipe with d1~PW, if d1 hits meaty enough! You can interchange exPW with exFang Spin on any option besides exTonfa Swipe. I don't think it's comprehensive guide, because Tanya have lots of stuff to mess your options or punishes. Anyway, I hope this will help.

 

[chief713]

The fact that her teleport doesn't have armor anymore is a really big deal. She can still get out, but it's not free anymore. She has to think about it, which is in Goro's favor, especially since he can punish her wakeups like SPY described.

 

[D_Matt_Ma]

Reviving this thread for variation suggestions against Mileena and Scorpion. Them being able to low profile Tigrar fury so easily and jump around Kuatan Warrior makes me want to use dragon fang, but that will be a very VERY long match of me walking up to them as they run away.

 

[chief713]

Dunno about Scropion, but I like Fangs for Mileena. Fang spin is -3 and her fastest down poke is 9 frames. Goro's D1/D3 is 6f, so on Fang spin block it comes out in 9 frames. That means if you're both frame perfect, the best she can do is trade or risk an unsafe roll or unsafe armor.

 

[BunLantern]

After playing some good reps from most of the characters since the games release I feel these are Tigrar Goro's 5 worst match ups. Feel free to discuss, disagree or shed some knowledge on these match ups.

Terrible Match Ups
- Kung Lao: This one is pretty much common knowledge regardless of Goro's variation. KL can jump free over Goro, zone him out, punish telestomp on reaction with ex spin or tie with regular spin, and he just plain has more options during the match than Goro does. This is the ONLY match up I feel comfortable giving a number to. 8-2 KL's favor.

- Tanya: This match up was abysmal before the Tanya normalization patch, maybe even worse than KL. However I moved her to 2nd because I just don't feel like anything is worse than KL. Between Kobu Jitsu's Batgirl 50/50s, Pyro's strong zoning, and Naginata's weird hit boxes this is one hell of a match for Goro. Tanya can still pretty much zip around the stage in any variation and Goro will have to chase, which makes him play her game even if he has the lead. She also has the advantage of being a female character so Goro's already unreliable launching string becomes even less reliable in this match up.

- Liu Kang: With the exception of Dualist which I don't find to be too bad for Goro due to MB PW blowing up a lot of his set ups the Liu Kang match up is awful. Liu Kang out zones Goro HARD with low fire ball. Playing full screen in this match up is not an option. Working your way in while Liu builds meter is very tough and even when you get close Liu Kang's fire ball is so fast that most of the time you can't even punish it with MB punchwalk like most other projectiles in the game. Flame fist has one of the few moves in the game that can straight up beat MB punchwalk in MB Windmill Punch, not to mention a parry. All this coupled with the fact that he's faster than Goro (walk, run, and back dash) and does more damage (regular and chip) makes Liu Kang a huge problem for any Goro, Tigrar or otherwise.

- Mileena: She can punish telestomp on reaction for a full combo with her teleport which is a problem because she zones Goro fairly well (especially in piercing). MB roll can beat MB punchwalk out right (Its tight timing though) as well as low profile a lot of Goro's moves. Like Tanya, it's harder to land combos consistently on her because of her hit box.

- Kitana: This one wasn't so bad until recently but with all her buffs this match up has turned into an up hill battle. A good Kitana will almost always have the meter advantage (unless you manage to land first hit) because she'll be spending most of the match throwing fans which Goro will have to duck because the trade is not in his favor (along with the fact that she can reflect projectiles). She heavily out damages Goro midscreen and in the corner.

Characters that almost made the cut
-Scorpion
-Ermac

With the exception of Kenshi, Ferra/Torr, Kano, Predator, Tremor and Jacqui Briggs (haven't played enough of those characters.) I believe Tigrar Goro is at no more than a slight disadvantage against the rest of the cast.

 

[Espio]

After playing some good reps from most of the characters since the games release I feel these are Tigrar Goro's 5 worst match ups. Feel free to discuss, disagree or shed some knowledge on these match ups.

Terrible Match Ups
- Kung Lao: This one is pretty much common knowledge regardless of Goro's variation. KL can jump free over Goro, zone him out, punish telestomp on reaction with ex spin or tie with regular spin, and he just plain has more options during the match than Goro does. This is the ONLY match up I feel comfortable giving a number to. 8-2 KL's favor.

- Tanya: This match up was abysmal before the Tanya normalization patch, maybe even worse than KL. However I moved her to 2nd because I just don't feel like anything is worse than KL. Between Kobu Jitsu's Batgirl 50/50s, Pyro's strong zoning, and Naginata's weird hit boxes this is one hell of a match for Goro. Tanya can still pretty much zip around the stage in any variation and Goro will have to chase, which makes him play her game even if he has the lead. She also has the advantage of being a female character so Goro's already unreliable launching string becomes even less reliable in this match up.

- Liu Kang: With the exception of Dualist which I don't find to be too bad for Goro due to MB PW blowing up a lot of his set ups the Liu Kang match up is awful. Liu Kang out zones Goro HARD with low fire ball. Playing full screen in this match up is not an option. Working your way in while Liu builds meter is very tough and even when you get close Liu Kang's fire ball is so fast that most of the time you can't even punish it with MB punchwalk like most other projectiles in the game. Flame fist has one of the few moves in the game that can straight up beat MB punchwalk in MB Windmill Punch, not to mention a parry. All this coupled with the fact that he's faster than Goro (walk, run, and back dash) and does more damage (regular and chip) makes Liu Kang a huge problem for any Goro, Tigrar or otherwise.

- Mileena: She can punish telestomp on reaction for a full combo with her teleport which is a problem because she zones Goro fairly well (especially in piercing). MB roll can beat MB punchwalk out right (Its tight timing though) as well as low profile a lot of Goro's moves. Like Tanya, it's harder to land combos consistently on her because of her hit box.

- Kitana: This one wasn't so bad until recently but with all her buffs this match up has turned into an up hill battle. A good Kitana will almost always have the meter advantage (unless you manage to land first hit) because she'll be spending most of the match throwing fans which Goro will have to duck because the trade is not in his favor (along with the fact that she can reflect projectiles). She heavily out damages Goro midscreen and in the corner.

Characters that almost made the cut
-Scorpion
-Ermac

With the exception of Kenshi, Ferra/Torr, Kano, Predator, Tremor and Jacqui Briggs (haven't played enough of those characters.) I believe Tigrar Goro is at no more than a slight disadvantage against the rest of the cast.

Very long post. Please just hear me out more or less, no offense is intended, just honest thoughts and analysis from matches and lab time.

I've asked before, but I will ask again: Could you please direct me to these Kung Lao players? If the connection is good, I can learn something more that I am currently missing. I think it is losing, but am not sold on anymore than merely losing. 8-2 just seems so over the top. Everyone can punish telestomp and it's not like Kung Lao's zoning is Quan level and the narrative of you cannot do anything about jumping is just a bit disingenuous.

As for Tanya: Losing, doesn't seem like that big of a deal against pyromancer especially with fireball nerfs alongside her other nerfs. I was doing fine versus Pre-patch Pyro Tanya as well. It's reasonable to assert she wins in some way, but not in a lopsided type of way.

There's no reason why if you have a lifelead you have to chase Dragon Naginata as if she has a full screen presence at all when she honestly does not especially in Tigrar Fury. If you have a lifelead, you should just be chilling and reacting to things she does. The invincibility is gone now, let her come to you, let her take a risk in this variation if she's down.

I don't have any notable Kobu experience beyond a game or two, but you talk about the match up like she has all her good tools concentrated into one variation. Her zoning is alright in this variation, that's it. Her mix ups are good, but there's lots of characters with good mix ups and footsies that we do fine against like Cassie and Jax for example.

Don't have really any Liu Kang experience, but you have a low starter, which automatically negates parry being this big deal issue for us. Hit Liu Kang with a couple of low starters into your 30% wall carry into the corner and they'll stop abusing that shit real quick. Parry is good, but it's not a really hindering affair, just have to think a bit more.. The rest of your points I will defer on until I have the proper experience to agree or disagree.


Mileena: I honestly don't feel like she has a place anywhere in this discussion of problem match ups like, at all. We're actually probably a problem match up for her for lots of reasons lol. I have the match up experience against Mr. Mileena, Yoaks, and Perez Gomez and have always done well against every version of Mileena (i.e. pre and post patch) either winning decisively or holding my own. This includes against Piercing and Ravenous Mileena. No Ethereal experience as of yet.


In my experience playing against you, what I'm guessing is your problem with Mileena is the jumping, whenever we have played the jumping is a major issue I have seen from you, Vak notices it too when he freaks out about it lol and while I have issues anti-airing with Cage, Mileena blows jumping and careless play up real hard. I've said this before, but I will say it again, let her hang herself, play on the ground mostly, don't get overzealous with your pressure etc. You are safe on essentially everything, she is not and has to take lots of risks. Forward 3 alone is an oppressive footsie tool for Goro against Mileena. Your pokes are superior, the damage is about the same.

When you objectively realize that in order for her to low profile your moves she has to put her life on the line and risk losing 30%+ into the corner where she is very likely to die there, the talking point is kind of weak especially when it's not unique to Goro that she can low profile with rolls.

Your Armor move is safe, hers is not and the likelihood of ex roll winning is EXTREMELY low. As much Mileena experience as I have, I've probably had it beat ex punchwalk three times out of the countless times I've straight up obliterated ex roll. It's so rare that it means very little. If you're late it's more likely etc.

You should really stop using inconsistent strings to punish people or to combo off of. Why do players in general put this focus on doing inconsistent strings? I can think of around 10 starters Goro has that work perfectly fine on Mileena, Kitana. other female characters and the entire roster, I only use those. Why shortchange yourself or give yourself even more unneeded things to think about? I've noticed you used those inconsistent ones and that's more of a personal choice than a match up related problem.

And to reiterate again, EVERYONE can punish telestomp, it's for more or less counterzoning on a read or tagged on at the end of corner combos. I only emphasize this cause a lot of your match up points center around telestomp, I'm not sure why.

There are also instances where you can evade telekick with stomp or punish telekick with it, so it goes both ways. There's not really a reason why it's a talking point against Mileena when you can fight her on the ground most of the time anyway, you kick her in the ass literally and figuratively there anyway lol.

Here's a set from last night against Ravenous Mileena using Tigrar Fury Goro: http://www.twitch.tv/espio872/v/8423651

Showcases how I play it. I had older footage, but this is current, timely, post buffed action so it's the perfect display.

I also use Tigrar Fury Goro throughout the entire 3 hour stream, alternating with Assassin Kitana if you would like more footage to check out.

Kitana: Well first of all, the overwhelming majority of her "buffs" just made it so she actually had usable footsie strings like 2,1 forward 2,2, etc. because before that, most of her ranged or advancing options were pretty insanely negative. Before it was just painfully free up close. She even had strings that were full combo punishable on hit as if that made sense. Now she has actual legit footsies like Goro does.

The ex DP was a nice buff, but when you think about it, it's still a risk on block like Mileena's ex ball roll so despite how awesome DP is and the launching potential it has, she doesn't get up for free by any means, even with meter and all of her other wake ups are unsafe ex or otherwise as well.

The other important note is the only aspect of her zoning that I am aware of got stronger is ex fan hitting mid on the second hit, the rest of her zoning hasn't changed in any ground breaking ways for Assassin and Royal Storm, Mournful is a different story though. Our fireball while definitely not going to purely outzone her still leaves trades in our favor 8%>6% which helps with throwing off her zoning rhythm, getting or keeping a lifelead, getting in and so forth.

How did you conclude trading projectiles is not in our favor when the damage difference is present? And if you catch her in the air with the trade you get a chance to advance forward and get in even easier. You're not beating her at zoning, that's her game and that's not what the fireball is for, you're just using it to check her and what not.

Reflect helps, but think about it this way: If she's trying to reflect your projectiles, she's not zoning you, which means you can use this to your advantage to get in because she cannot simultaneously zone you while also looking out for reflects, she either commits to one or the other and that opens up your approach. Make her think, the more you do that, the less attractive you'll make reflecting so much. Because once you get in, you can make it all up.

Goro can punish most string cancels into fan with command grab every time on block and even the ones that aren't, she still has to guess and respect our follow up options.

She outzones us, but we give her issues up close in pressure and rival her pretty easily in footsies. Her armor options for getting out of pressure are all unsafe while most of ours are super safe. She doesn't have any crazy mix ups to open players up either. Slow, non-launching overhead. Low starter and then back 1,4 that people shouldn't be getting consistently hit with nowadays.

Kitana doesn't need meter for a lot of things and outdamages a lot of characters, some of which she probably struggles with actually like Kenshi. Goro's not about that big damage anyway in most cases, he's like Doomsday or Hawkgirl and in Injustice those two characters had several characters they went even with (or even beat) that outdamaged them and didn't need meter for anything like Wonder Woman or in the case of beat (Joker).

Her new down 1 is awesome, but Goro's pokes across the board are equal or superior either in terms of range (down 4 and down 3), advantage (down 4 and down 3) or speed (down 1). Her down 1 is better range wise though than his, but his is safer and faster.

This is my perspective as a person who mains both characters and has followed Kitana's evolution for some months, you don't have to agree, but I feel like I understand the match up with Tigrar Fury versus Royal Storm and Assassin.

I didn't touch on Assassin, but the gist is about the same really for those two.

Scorpion is an annoying thot, no lie lol.

 

[chief713]

I'm doing better now in the Kitana matchup by just playing more patiently, and pretty much agree with your analysis of the matchup. Except, the fireball trade is definitely in Kitana's favor and NOT Goro's. His does more damage, but she has waaaay more hit advantage than Goro does on any of his fireballs. So after you trade, she's already ready to throw another fan out while Goro is at the end of his recovery. He loses the ability to contest a fan after the trade and then has to start playing the minefield.

EDIT: Just watched some of those Mileena matches. I don't think it's a good representation of the matchup. You played very well (I never used 121 much, but you've made me see how useful it is in live matches) but there were many mistakes the Mileena player made.

1. They used Ravenous instead of Piercing. Low sais making the zoning worse for Goro. Can't just duck and wait it out; you actually have to commit to some sort of forward movement.

2. She dropped most of her combos. You got hit with a lot of rolls, regular and EX that led to less than 30% damage and didn't put you in a bad knockdown situation. And the combos that were hit were almost all suboptimal. You basically lived longer than you really should have.

3. Didn't go for many mixups. Mileena has a few strings that contain and/or end in low, and only a handful of times did that Mileena mix it up between low and overhead. They mostly used the same strings over and over, didn't exploit Goro's horrible AA by jumping, and instead opted to stay grounded. They also cancelled a lot of single pokes into roll which just doesn't seem like a good idea.

4. Bad defense. Got hit with waaaay too many telestomps and as I'm still watching the matches, I have yet to see him bait a fireball and punish with telekick. I know EX punch walk is a threat but they barely contested blocked punch walks. They also let you jump in; if she's zoning correctly, that should get blown up by trip guard roll most of the time. I've only seen it twice so far.

Overall, that Mileena is playing too timid and letting you get away with a lot.

 

[BunLantern]

Very long post. Please just hear me out more or less, no offense is intended, just honest thoughts and analysis from matches and lab time.

I've asked before, but I will ask again: Could you please direct me to these Kung Lao players? If the connection is good, I can learn something more that I am currently missing. I think it is losing, but am not sold on anymore than merely losing. 8-2 just seems so over the top. Everyone can punish telestomp and it's not like Kung Lao's zoning is Quan level and the narrative of you cannot do anything about jumping is just a bit disingenuous.

As for Tanya: Losing, doesn't seem like that big of a deal against pyromancer especially with fireball nerfs alongside her other nerfs. I was doing fine versus Pre-patch Pyro Tanya as well. It's reasonable to assert she wins in some way, but not in a lopsided type of way.

There's no reason why if you have a lifelead you have to chase Dragon Naginata as if she has a full screen presence at all when she honestly does not especially in Tigrar Fury. If you have a lifelead, you should just be chilling and reacting to things she does. The invincibility is gone now, let her come to you, let her take a risk in this variation if she's down.

I don't have any notable Kobu experience beyond a game or two, but you talk about the match up like she has all her good tools concentrated into one variation. Her zoning is alright in this variation, that's it. Her mix ups are good, but there's lots of characters with good mix ups and footsies that we do fine against like Cassie and Jax for example.

Don't have really any Liu Kang experience, but you have a low starter, which automatically negates parry being this big deal issue for us. Hit Liu Kang with a couple of low starters into your 30% wall carry into the corner and they'll stop abusing that shit real quick. Parry is good, but it's not a really hindering affair, just have to think a bit more.. The rest of your points I will defer on until I have the proper experience to agree or disagree.


Mileena: I honestly don't feel like she has a place anywhere in this discussion of problem match ups like, at all. We're actually probably a problem match up for her for lots of reasons lol. I have the match up experience against Mr. Mileena, Yoaks, and Perez Gomez and have always done well against every version of Mileena (i.e. pre and post patch) either winning decisively or holding my own. This includes against Piercing and Ravenous Mileena. No Ethereal experience as of yet.


In my experience playing against you, what I'm guessing is your problem with Mileena is the jumping, whenever we have played the jumping is a major issue I have seen from you, Vak notices it too when he freaks out about it lol and while I have issues anti-airing with Cage, Mileena blows jumping and careless play up real hard. I've said this before, but I will say it again, let her hang herself, play on the ground mostly, don't get overzealous with your pressure etc. You are safe on essentially everything, she is not and has to take lots of risks. Forward 3 alone is an oppressive footsie tool for Goro against Mileena. Your pokes are superior, the damage is about the same.

When you objectively realize that in order for her to low profile your moves she has to put her life on the line and risk losing 30%+ into the corner where she is very likely to die there, the talking point is kind of weak especially when it's not unique to Goro that she can low profile with rolls.

Your Armor move is safe, hers is not and the likelihood of ex roll winning is EXTREMELY low. As much Mileena experience as I have, I've probably had it beat ex punchwalk three times out of the countless times I've straight up obliterated ex roll. It's so rare that it means very little. If you're late it's more likely etc.

You should really stop using inconsistent strings to punish people or to combo off of. Why do players in general put this focus on doing inconsistent strings? I can think of around 10 starters Goro has that work perfectly fine on Mileena, Kitana. other female characters and the entire roster, I only use those. Why shortchange yourself or give yourself even more unneeded things to think about? I've noticed you used those inconsistent ones and that's more of a personal choice than a match up related problem.

And to reiterate again, EVERYONE can punish telestomp, it's for more or less counterzoning on a read or tagged on at the end of corner combos. I only emphasize this cause a lot of your match up points center around telestomp, I'm not sure why.

There are also instances where you can evade telekick with stomp or punish telekick with it, so it goes both ways. There's not really a reason why it's a talking point against Mileena when you can fight her on the ground most of the time anyway, you kick her in the ass literally and figuratively there anyway lol.

Here's a set from last night against Ravenous Mileena using Tigrar Fury Goro: http://www.twitch.tv/espio872/v/8423651

Showcases how I play it. I had older footage, but this is current, timely, post buffed action so it's the perfect display.

I also use Tigrar Fury Goro throughout the entire 3 hour stream, alternating with Assassin Kitana if you would like more footage to check out.

Kitana: Well first of all, the overwhelming majority of her "buffs" just made it so she actually had usable footsie strings like 2,1 forward 2,2, etc. because before that, most of her ranged or advancing options were pretty insanely negative. Before it was just painfully free up close. She even had strings that were full combo punishable on hit as if that made sense. Now she has actual legit footsies like Goro does.

The ex DP was a nice buff, but when you think about it, it's still a risk on block like Mileena's ex ball roll so despite how awesome DP is and the launching potential it has, she doesn't get up for free by any means, even with meter and all of her other wake ups are unsafe ex or otherwise as well.

The other important note is the only aspect of her zoning that I am aware of got stronger is ex fan hitting mid on the second hit, the rest of her zoning hasn't changed in any ground breaking ways for Assassin and Royal Storm, Mournful is a different story though. Our fireball while definitely not going to purely outzone her still leaves trades in our favor 8%>6% which helps with throwing off her zoning rhythm, getting or keeping a lifelead, getting in and so forth.

How did you conclude trading projectiles is not in our favor when the damage difference is present? And if you catch her in the air with the trade you get a chance to advance forward and get in even easier. You're not beating her at zoning, that's her game and that's not what the fireball is for, you're just using it to check her and what not.

Reflect helps, but think about it this way: If she's trying to reflect your projectiles, she's not zoning you, which means you can use this to your advantage to get in because she cannot simultaneously zone you while also looking out for reflects, she either commits to one or the other and that opens up your approach. Make her think, the more you do that, the less attractive you'll make reflecting so much. Because once you get in, you can make it all up.

Goro can punish most string cancels into fan with command grab every time on block and even the ones that aren't, she still has to guess and respect our follow up options.

She outzones us, but we give her issues up close in pressure and rival her pretty easily in footsies. Her armor options for getting out of pressure are all unsafe while most of ours are super safe. She doesn't have any crazy mix ups to open players up either. Slow, non-launching overhead. Low starter and then back 1,4 that people shouldn't be getting consistently hit with nowadays.

Kitana doesn't need meter for a lot of things and outdamages a lot of characters, some of which she probably struggles with actually like Kenshi. Goro's not about that big damage anyway in most cases, he's like Doomsday or Hawkgirl and in Injustice those two characters had several characters they went even with (or even beat) that outdamaged them and didn't need meter for anything like Wonder Woman or in the case of beat (Joker).

Her new down 1 is awesome, but Goro's pokes across the board are equal or superior either in terms of range (down 4 and down 3), advantage (down 4 and down 3) or speed (down 1). Her down 1 is better range wise though than his, but his is safer and faster.

This is my perspective as a person who mains both characters and has followed Kitana's evolution for some months, you don't have to agree, but I feel like I understand the match up with Tigrar Fury versus Royal Storm and Assassin.

I didn't touch on Assassin, but the gist is about the same really for those two.

Scorpion is an annoying thot, no lie lol.

I'll try and answer these in order best I can, might miss a few lol.

Good players

Kung Lao- I've played few sets with Crosby_87 (there might be more under scores in his name) If I play him again I'll edit this with his exact tag. He's a very good KL (he also shows up in Vak's stream once in a while).

Tanya- More than enough games with Vak

Liu Kang- I've played a bunch with Emperor Murk, very good LK player.

Mileena- Emperor Sunfire and Mr. Mileena, excluding Saltface that's about as good experience as you're gonna get.

Kitana- Mr. Mileena and JackAshe, both solid Kitanas.

Tanya

Yea Pyro definitely got a bit easier when her teleport was nerfed. She still has one of the best mobilities in the game where as Goro has the worst mobility in the game. Maybe Dragon Naginata isn't so bad when you get used to her hit box bull crap.

Liu Kang

I only mentioned parry because it's one more thing to worry about with punchwalk, nothing like wasting a meter for PW just to take 12% damage. But yea it really isn't the biggest deal in the match up. It's mostly his hard to punish block strings and his above average zoning.

Mileena

I might be willing to concede this one. Mileena has always been a personal demon of mine and maybe Scorpion should have her spot. She just seems to have so many movement options with teleport, roll and her far reaching low starter. She also destroys jumping, which as you mentioned I definitely do too much. But navigating low and high sais with the constant threat of teleport is such a damn pain in the ass especially with someone as slow and meter dependent as Goro. That's where telestomp being so shitty comes into play which is why I mentioned it. Goro's one way to get across the screen without taking chip and letting her build meter is telestomp and that can be full combo punished on reaction by her teleport. I just feel like I'm always playing her game.

It's also a little concerning that when I play the same Mileenas with my 2 week old Predator I do better than I do with my 3 month old Goro.

Kitana

This was more about Mournful than Assassian or Royal Storm which I should have mentioned. Mournful gains a diagonal air projectile that negates Goro's zoning in his "zoning" variation almost completely. Gains a mid hitting projectile that can be meterbured to hit twice AND start a combo. Goro's meterbured projectile is a waste of meter. If you get in as Goro then the match is on an even playing field but you'll almost certainly take chip damage as she gains meter. She also out damages Goro and has a female hit box which sucks.

Jumping

Really have to work on that, I'm just afraid to play footsies with Goro. Something I'm slowly getting over.

Max damage combos

I realize against female characters I can do more reliable combos that do a little less damage but shouldn't making your opponent rely on worse combos because your hitbox is better be counted as an advantage in match ups?

We can agree that Scorpion is a whore which is nice and I'll definitely watch your Mileena matches, thanks for the link

 

[Espio]

I'm doing better now in the Kitana matchup by just playing more patiently, and pretty much agree with your analysis of the matchup. Except, the fireball trade is definitely in Kitana's favor and NOT Goro's. His does more damage, but she has waaaay more hit advantage than Goro does on any of his fireballs. So after you trade, she's already ready to throw another fan out while Goro is at the end of his recovery. He loses the ability to contest a fan after the trade and then has to start playing the minefield.

EDIT: Just watched some of those Mileena matches. I don't think it's a good representation of the matchup. You played very well (I never used 121 much, but you've made me see how useful it is in live matches) but there were many mistakes the Mileena player made.

1. They used Ravenous instead of Piercing. Low sais making the zoning worse for Goro. Can't just duck and wait it out; you actually have to commit to some sort of forward movement.

2. She dropped most of her combos. You got hit with a lot of rolls, regular and EX that led to less than 30% damage and didn't put you in a bad knockdown situation. And the combos that were hit were almost all suboptimal. You basically lived longer than you really should have.

3. Didn't go for many mixups. Mileena has a few strings that contain and/or end in low, and only a handful of times did that Mileena mix it up between low and overhead. They mostly used the same strings over and over, didn't exploit Goro's horrible AA by jumping, and instead opted to stay grounded. They also cancelled a lot of single pokes into roll which just doesn't seem like a good idea.

4. Bad defense. Got hit with waaaay too many telestomps and as I'm still watching the matches, I have yet to see him bait a fireball and punish with telekick. I know EX punch walk is a threat but they barely contested blocked punch walks. They also let you jump in; if she's zoning correctly, that should get blown up by trip guard roll most of the time. I've only seen it twice so far.

Overall, that Mileena is playing too timid and letting you get away with a lot.

I'm glad to hear we generally agree on Kitana. As I said already, I am talking about the damage trade is in your favor. Your goal is not to beat her at her own game, because you're not intended to beat her at zoning, merely to check her periodically, so I agree. If he did beat her at zoning, he would probably win pretty decisively. If your mentality with Tigrar is to outzone her the whole match, you're not doing it correctly. It's like the garlic bread with a nice chicken alfredo pasta, it compliments, but is not meant to be a core focus. Your core focus is to get in there and freestyle all over that ass.

And yeah, to reiterate, I am of the opinion she outzones him, it's part of what keeps it from slipping to one side or the other.

Now onto Mileena: Before I begin, I appreciate that you took the time to watch and analyze the gameplay. I have a lot to say in reply. Thanks for the kind words. I like the fact that the string can be used for "Ghetto" tick throw set ups, punchwalk, regular grabs, sustaining pressure etc. He has a lot of under appreciated strings like that, there's a lot of good ones I don't even showcase in this set that help me out quite a bit.

While flaws were present in both our play styles (I will discuss this below), I do not at all think it negates several of the core points I made in relation to this match up. Goro definitely beats her in footsies, crushes her on knockdown and due to him being a vastly safer character, takes far less risks than Mileena does, all of which adds up to the match up being nothing near terrible, or even losing. Nobody can play it perfectly. I got hit by more mix ups than I should have, he did things he shouldn't have done. I blocked high then ducked and got hit by several ex rolls (my fault). I guess the core point I'm making here is that even though I won rather convincingly, I didn't play it perfectly either and yet I STILL won, that should say something.


1. I've played multiple piercing Mileenas including: Mr. Mileena, Perez Gomez and Yoaks when he used to use piercing, the results are the same against them, regardless of which variation is used. It's not like when Perez or one of the others used piercing I got bodied, but when someone uses Ravenous it's my favor. The results are relatively consistent because low sai is not a major game changer. Low sai makes the zoning worse for everyone, but it also opens Mileena up to jump ins, telestomps etc, there's pros and cons even with additional zoning options.

2. I dropped a lot of my combos as well, so your point could easily go both ways in terms of "we both lived longer than we should have" so it balances it out fine. I've never really feared getting knocked down by Mileena, any Mileena, but you're right in the sense that more oki on me wouldn't hurt his case.

3. If you watch the whole stream, I don't seem to have a problem anti-airing people, even in shitty connections. I've never, ever had Mileena of all characters whether scrubby or not jump at me for free. He tried jumping several times, many times I anti-aired with ex telestomp or other options. I've never had issues with anti-airing in most instances other than Kotal's jump 1 and some other stupid ones. He asked me on stream and you can hear the convo where he asks me if he should jump more, he does and it changes nothing major.

I avoided a lot of the grab mix ups in several instances and a lot of her strings and mix ups aren't hard to block unless she mixes in ex roll, which as you know is not safe and leaves you down a bar and probably in the corner and down 30% life in the process. He probably could have done more mix ups, but in most cases her mix ups result in her putting her life on the line, not to mention, using her safe stings that contain mix ups isn't really a bad thing per se cause some are plus.

4. He also punishes a lot of telestomp in the full Goro/Mileena set if you get through it all you will see this on multiple matches and rounds. He also does the fireball bait I believe at least several times, but again, tele kick is a full combo punishable risk and it's not like I'm zoning him back haphazardly. Even on hit into said or whatever, the risk/reward isn't stellar. He also wins a match or so with a counterzoning telekick cancelled into x-ray.

Even if they played Yolo style Mileena, the amount of times I would just block after my pressure ended would have led to her eating full combos consistently anyway, probably would have died sooner actually. It's not like if he played super risky that would have changed everything and I would have struggled. I'm used to more yolo Mileena anyway, which is why you will see me block a lot during the set after knocking him down or even if I'm advantageous.

I jumped sometimes, but it's not like I jumped constantly or never got punished for jumping either. I mostly played consistently on the ground. It's not like you can NEVER ever jump against her.

I agree with some points, disagree with quite a few, mainly because I feel like I played pretty smart and didn't get away with anything absurd or outrageous that invalidates my match up analysis that I laid out earlier. The points I laid out still add up to it not being a terrible match up nor even a losing one. Goro does fine against all versions of Mileena that I've fought against (Piercing and Ravenous). The only one I'm clueless on is Ethereal and I doubt those teleports are match up changing either.

I'll try and answer these in order best I can, might miss a few lol.

Good players

Kung Lao- I've played few sets with Crosby_87 (there might be more under scores in his name) If I play him again I'll edit this with his exact tag. He's a very good KL (he also shows up in Vak's stream once in a while).

Tanya- More than enough games with Vak

Liu Kang- I've played a bunch with Emperor Murk, very good LK player.

Mileena- Emperor Sunfire and Mr. Mileena, excluding Saltface that's about as good experience as you're gonna get.

Kitana- Mr. Mileena and JackAshe, both solid Kitanas.

Tanya

Yea Pyro definitely got a bit easier when her teleport was nerfed. She still has one of the best mobilities in the game where as Goro has the worst mobility in the game. Maybe Dragon Naginata isn't so bad when you get used to her hit box bull crap.

Liu Kang

I only mentioned parry because it's one more thing to worry about with punchwalk, nothing like wasting a meter for PW just to take 12% damage. But yea it really isn't the biggest deal in the match up. It's mostly his hard to punish block strings and his above average zoning.

Mileena

I might be willing to concede this one. Mileena has always been a personal demon of mine and maybe Scorpion should have her spot. She just seems to have so many movement options with teleport, roll and her far reaching low starter. She also destroys jumping, which as you mentioned I definitely do too much. But navigating low and high sais with the constant threat of teleport is such a damn pain in the ass especially with someone as slow and meter dependent as Goro. That's where telestomp being so shitty comes into play which is why I mentioned it. Goro's one way to get across the screen without taking chip and letting her build meter is telestomp and that can be full combo punished on reaction by her teleport. I just feel like I'm always playing her game.

It's also a little concerning that when I play the same Mileenas with my 2 week old Predator I do better than I do with my 3 month old Goro.

Kitana

This was more about Mournful than Assassian or Royal Storm which I should have mentioned. Mournful gains a diagonal air projectile that negates Goro's zoning in his "zoning" variation almost completely. Gains a mid hitting projectile that can be meterbured to hit twice AND start a combo. Goro's meterbured projectile is a waste of meter. If you get in as Goro then the match is on an even playing field but you'll almost certainly take chip damage as she gains meter. She also out damages Goro and has a female hit box which sucks.

Jumping

Really have to work on that, I'm just afraid to play footsies with Goro. Something I'm slowly getting over.

Max damage combos

I realize against female characters I can do more reliable combos that do a little less damage but shouldn't making your opponent rely on worse combos because your hitbox is better be counted as an advantage in match ups?

We can agree that Scorpion is a whore which is nice and I'll definitely watch your Mileena matches, thanks for the link

Thank you for the list of players, I need to play Murk, we have not gotten to play at length as it currently stands. I am very, very curious about this match up. I will probably just wait till Summer Jam when I can play Murk offline. We have some overlap with Mileena . Very curious about this Kung Lao player, never seen him play before actually.


Mileena

Almost everyone has to play Mileena's game. She did this in MK9 too. She forces you to play on the ground and move rather cautiously because if you do not, you will be put down. As for the chip/meter build. Sometimes you just have to concede that to get in and blow her up. She thrives on frustrating you, it's part of her design ethos, it always has been.

Not to mention, if you scout a low sai at certain ranges you get a jump in punch full combo on Mileena. Patience will forever be her killer. Even if you have to block several sais to approach, a full combo will always be greater. Compared to most zoning in the game, hers is pretty so-so tier, which is why most Mileenas are jumping over to Ravenous right now as a preferred option over piercing.

In most cases, you block low against her and watch her meter. Forward 3 is like 30 frames, you should rarely if ever get hit by this offline. Online, sometimes I'll see it, stand up and still get hit lmao. By the way, her forward 4,4 has an armorable gap in it so even if she does the safer version, she gets launched by ex punchwalk. if she does forward 4, ex ball roll, this option loses to armor in the gap too and she's down a bar and in the corner.

The only uninterruptible option off of forward 4 that leads to any damage is forward 4, regular ball roll, but guess what? No matter what she's putting her life on the line and the risk/reward remains in Goro's favor because no matter what option she does, she remains unsafe. Even if you simply just block forward 4,4 out of concern for her merely cancelling into ball roll, she's negative enough to command grab her. Hit the lab, she has lots and lots of gaps in addition to being unsafe on block. The more i lab it, the more problems I keep finding for Mileena especially against someone with safe armor lol.


Maybe Predator secretly wrecks Mileena, maybe you just click better with Predator, maybe people don't know the match up yet, maybe set up characters are your thing. There's an insane amount of possibilities for why that is. That doesn't say much for or against him.


I did better with Hawkgirl versus Doomsday than I did with Martian even though some said martian won the match up, it just honestly depends, how we perform isn't always a reflection of a match up, but other factors.

Kitana


If you're talking about Mournful, that one is different from the other two. I'm not in sync with that variation to as much of a degree at the moment. I have some footage of me versus a Mournful Kitana, but I dunno if it would be considered useful or not. I guess if you want, check out my youtube channel with a set versus Wild, a Kitana main, see if there's anything that helps or not in terms of mournful Kitana: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-eFve8YfAEeiYbtc3PLisw

Set was uploaded about a week ago so just scroll over to the right, it's the first three parts of the set.

I'm not an expert on Mournful by any means, but anything to help a fellow shokan. I think it would be honestly.

Forward 3/back 1/3/2,1/1,1/back 3/ 1,2,1/ work on everyone regardless of hitbox. Why not use those? Dropping combos, even small ones can be the difference between winning and losing a match.

Go with what works, ten out of ten times whether you're fighting that thot Mileena or Vanity Cage. When I'm playing him, I focus on my spacing, my footsies, pokes, baits etc, never do I have to wonder about whether my combo will hit unless I either: A. mistimed it or B. Hit the opponent at a weird angle or too far away. So that way if I drop a combo, it's on me.

Don't make more work for yourself, don't keep dropping combos that could win you the game by refusing to use the options that work on everyone, no additional thought required.

I m thankful for a productive discussion about Goro from you two, this is what I'd like to see more of. We don't have to agree, but as long as we're talking, that's great .

 

[juicepouch]

Boneshaper might be really bad

@Espio @BunLantern @Mourneblade @chief713

any of you guys have any experience here? I don't know how to appproach this matchup at all

 

[chief713]

I'm not really familiar with the matchup at a high level.

 

[Espio]

Boneshaper might be really bad

@Espio @BunLantern @Mourneblade @chief713

any of you guys have any experience here? I don't know how to appproach this matchup at all

I have no idea, my match up experience came from pre-patch which means nothing now lol.

I need to play it, I don't like to theory fight. I know he bitch slaps a couple zoners due to that reaction low scoop that reaches further than Jesus, but Goro's not one so who knows? That dumb low scoop has always been annoying, even before the buffs though lol.

I'd like to hear your insight, help me understand it if you don't mind.

 

[juicepouch]

I have no idea, my match up experience came from pre-patch which means nothing now lol.

I need to play it, I don't like to theory fight. I know he bitch slaps a couple zoners due to that reaction low scoop that reaches further than Jesus, but Goro's not one so who knows? That dumb low scoop has always been annoying, even before the buffs though lol.

I'd like to hear your insight, help me understand it if you don't mind.

as far as i can tell i just feel outgunned on all areas of the screen. I can't camp out and play f3 footsies like I would like considering hellsparks and scoop, and dark beam presents an issue for KW full screen in terms of zoning as well. It just seems like you have to get next to him but without a good read on telestomp or ex punchwalk i couldn't, because ex hell sparks punishes you for trying to get into the range you need to be by placing you back in his set play. Not sure if this is goro specific or just a product of shinnoks' overwhelming screen presence in bone shaper honestly, but I felt like I rarely had the opportunity to improve my position strategically, like if I were playing with checkers against a chess set

 

[Espio]

as far as i can tell i just feel outgunned on all areas of the screen. I can't camp out and play f3 footsies like I would like considering hellsparks and scoop, and dark beam presents an issue for KW full screen in terms of zoning as well. It just seems like you have to get next to him but without a good read on telestomp or ex punchwalk i couldn't, because ex hell sparks punishes you for trying to get into the range you need to be by placing you back in his set play. Not sure if this is goro specific or just a product of shinnoks' overwhelming screen presence in bone shaper honestly, but I felt like I rarely had the opportunity to improve my position strategically, like if I were playing with checkers against a chess set

Sounds about right, I can definitely see it. I really doubt it's any different with Tigrar because Shinnok blows up pretty much everyone's zoning too, so I suspect variation doesn't matter too much unfortunately for Bone Shaper. Not liking the idea of both my characters struggling versus him, but I'd definitely like to lab this with you and Shinnok players.

Pre-patch I felt like I was fighting a sniper who could hit me anywhere, add the buffs and lol. He builds meter, makes it hard for you to build meter, fun times <_<.

 

[Chongo]

Goro has 2 more arms then everyone else in the game, how does he even lose a matchup?

 

[BunLantern]

Usedcarsalesmang has a pretty solid Bone Shaper if you guys are looking for experience. The match up seems like butt cheeks but I haven't played it nearly enough to know for sure.

 

[Mourneblade]

Boneshaper might be really bad

@Espio @BunLantern @Mourneblade @chief713

any of you guys have any experience here? I don't know how to appproach this matchup at all

ill be honest i have very little match experience against boneshaper. but i can tell Goro struggles. My usual trick for being Imposters doesnt work against Boneshaper because of the really fast projectile, but i find being patient and waiting for an opening works well.

That said ive only really ever fought a decent boneshaper twice and i got destroyed the first time and still lost again he second time

 

[MrSunshine]

I have a boneshaper and im on Xbox only

xoMrSunshinexo

 

[Lumpymoomilk]

I seem to have a lot of trouble with Cover Ops Sonya, just all the frigging mix ups in the corner are so annoying and the dive kick helps her avoid some ex punchwalks while staying at a pretty safe distance. Anybody else have trouble with her?

 

[chief713]

Lol, 90% of my scene plays Sonya. Covert is actually the easiest for Goro to deal with. First off, I recommend you play Fangs. You CANNOT let Sonya jump in on you, which is severely disappointing since Goro's AA sucks. But against Sonya you really can't afford it. Once she gets in you get 50/50 to death free. With Fangs, you can do EX spin on reaction and FCP a close jump in attempt. For her max range jumps, trip guard with B4.

You don't want to be in the range of her overhead/low. Instead try to stay right outside of Goro's F3 range in the neutral. That way when you see her taking a step forward to get in her range, you can tag her with a F3. At this range, you can also take a step back if you see a jump and trip guard with sweep.

If (when) you get put in a blockstring, favor blocking high when you see military stance. The low only does 14% and both it and the throw reset the situation. But eating the overhead leads to full combo. Also, you can armor through any MS cancel. This is VERY important. If you don't at least attempt this, you'll probably get bodied. So when you see MS, armor that shit.

 

[Lumpymoomilk]

Lol, 90% of my scene plays Sonya. Covert is actually the easiest for Goro to deal with. First off, I recommend you play Fangs. You CANNOT let Sonya jump in on you, which is severely disappointing since Goro's AA sucks. But against Sonya you really can't afford it. Once she gets in you get 50/50 to death free. With Fangs, you can do EX spin on reaction and FCP a close jump in attempt. For her max range jumps, trip guard with B4.

You don't want to be in the range of her overhead/low. Instead try to stay right outside of Goro's F3 range in the neutral. That way when you see her taking a step forward to get in her range, you can tag her with a F3. At this range, you can also take a step back if you see a jump and trip guard with sweep.

If (when) you get put in a blockstring, favor blocking high when you see military stance. The low only does 14% and both it and the throw reset the situation. But eating the overhead leads to full combo. Also, you can armor through any MS cancel. This is VERY important. If you don't at least attempt this, you'll probably get bodied. So when you see MS, armor that shit.

I might just be seeing things too but does Sonya's regular parry counter ex punchwalk or does she have to ex hers as well? I'm always hesitant to armor out because i'm wasting meter (the lifeblood of Goro) and getting hit too.

 

[BunLantern]

I might just be seeing things too but does Sonya's regular parry counter ex punchwalk or does she have to ex hers as well? I'm always hesitant to armor out because i'm wasting meter (the lifeblood of Goro) and getting hit too.

She can parry EX PW with regular parry unless something has changed. Haven't played a set against a Sonya in a month or so.

 

[Alright RyRy]

People must seem to forget that I play both BS Shinnok and Goro. Or the Goro community really wants nothing to do with me.

That matchup sucks for Goro in the KW Variation. Shinnok can just throw his projectile with no risk full screen.

Chest Lunge does not reach when doing hell sparks, leaves you at easy whiff punish range. Shinnok has no holes in the strings to armor through so that makes it a bit harder.

Shinnoks Ex Scoop is the bane of Goros special moves existence. As on reaction it punishes everything also.

For this matchup I would say TF would be the go to.

BS Shinnok vs KW Goro 7-3 / 8-2 Shinnok. Not fun.

 

[Mourneblade]

People must seem to forget that I play both BS Shinnok and Goro. Or the Goro community really wants nothing to do with me.

That matchup sucks for Goro in the KW Variation. Shinnok can just throw his projectile with no risk full screen.

Chest Lunge does not reach when doing hell sparks, leaves you at easy whiff punish range. Shinnok has no holes in the strings to armor through so that makes it a bit harder.

Shinnoks Ex Scoop is the bane of Goros special moves existence. As on reaction it punishes everything also.

For this matchup I would say TF would be the go to.

BS Shinnok vs KW Goro 7-3 / 8-2 Shinnok. Not fun.

Didnt know you played Shinnok thanks for the info though.

I usually play DF so i may have to heavily put some time into TF for this maychup