Frost General Discussion

[Xzyj]

her main punish tool is dash into 13, not even joking

 

[ShadyHeart]

Doesn't surprise me. Buffered dashes before normals are required to solve so many whiffing issues in this game. I was actually thinking about seeing if it worked but towers are taking an absurd amount of time to complete...

 

[Kindred]

Just go to the "Is she viable thread?" Ive got over 300 games with her now and she needs the 2 fixes kindred discusses above.

1. B1 needs to be faster ~ 13 frames. It is unreasonable to think even someone like sonicfox is going to be frame perfect, online. D1 on hit is +10, minus 16 frame startup on B1 and even frame perfect means you trade with a 6 frame D1. When I play against frost I steal my turn back 100% of the time because wtf is she going to do about it, and most dont think to, or arent able to, D1 into a special move.

2. Hit collision issues, you shouldn't have to think "what side is he on?" to punish something as negative as teleport. Blocking SZ slide (11 frame, full screen, low profiling, projectile avoiding, low, that krushing blows) and knowing you have to be fast as fuck online to punish it when its minus 10 billion because your fast buttons will wiff and your other buttons are slow as mud, should not be a thing.

Honestly I switched to Liu Kang until the patch. If the patch doesnt fix her issues, I dont think I can continue with her. She destroys scrubs who dont know the MU but as soon as they catch on or as soon as you play against someone good, you're fucked.
With Liu Kang, shit gets punished consistently, anybody poke happy against me gets blown up, its magnificent

 

[projectzero00]

Honestly I switched to Liu Kang until the patch. If the patch doesnt fix her issues, I dont think I can continue with her. She destroys scrubs who dont know the MU but as soon as they catch on or as soon as you play against someone good, you're fucked.
With Liu Kang, shit gets punished consistently, anybody poke happy against me gets blown up, its magnificent

Same unfortunately. I switched to Noob until they fix her. Which is a shame cause I really enjoy playing her against AI but online she's just terrible

 

[JSF]

I’ve seen a few of you say 13. Just to be clear
Frost b1 starts up in 16 Frames. that’s her fastest mid besides d1 and d3 (which isn’t even low)

 

[JSF]

I think b1 should be 11-9 frames to be really useful as of right now if she gets rushed down she kinda can’t do shit. There should not be 2 gaps in her b32d1 string AND it be unsafe on block. I’m fine with the last hit being unsafe but make b3 less negative so we can stagger or take outthe gaps, b3 shouldn’t be unsafe on block. She has no mix no staggers can’t punish and all for what? For decent zoning? Her fireballs have too much recovery for her to really zone some characters and her ex shield should eat 2 projectiles or something. Idk let’s brainstorm some fixes for her. Also get auger krushing blow pushes her back why? Is that a bug? It should be removed

 

[vegeta]

Honestly I switched to Liu Kang until the patch. If the patch doesnt fix her issues, I dont think I can continue with her. She destroys scrubs who dont know the MU but as soon as they catch on or as soon as you play against someone good, you're fucked.
With Liu Kang, shit gets punished consistently, anybody poke happy against me gets blown up, its magnificent

Yup

Read the quote about what side is he on. Lol found that out the hard way. Agreed. If a patch addresses her issues it’ll be Frost/Scorpion, until then it’s Scorpion with some Frost in casuals

 

[Xzyj]

I think b1 should be 11-9 frames to be really useful as of right now if she gets rushed down she kinda can’t do shit. There should not be 2 gaps in her b32d1 string AND it be unsafe on block. I’m fine with the last hit being unsafe but make b3 less negative so we can stagger or take outthe gaps, b3 shouldn’t be unsafe on block. She has no mix no staggers can’t punish and all for what? For decent zoning? Her fireballs have too much recovery for her to really zone some characters and her ex shield should eat 2 projectiles or something. Idk let’s brainstorm some fixes for her. Also get auger krushing blow pushes her back why? Is that a bug? It should be removed

i don't think you're asking for the right things, she excels at spacing and you want buffs for rushdown basically, for now she hurts the most from 6 frame d1s and blockstrings with very little minus on them into poke mindgame because it's hard to check people with something decent, so risk reward is in their favor to do random bullshit or spam d1 at you until you want to stop playing this game and play other decent fighting games that don't become just a poke war.

Personally i don't think she needs a lot, she is really good at what she's supposed to be good, but she hurts from hitbox failures:
-B121 last hit should not randomly whiff on duck blocking/ducking opponents, the whole string is unsafe up until the last hit, and while you can do B12-spin for the problematic matchups when it whiffs as of now, it's main purpose is creating space on block and creating combo opportunities on throw/mid mindgame
-B32 second hit should not randomly whiff on ducking/duck blocking opponents, since B3 is unsafe by itself and B32D1 is unsafe and has a gap it's very clear they wanted this to be a combo filler string and a punishment string, however if you missed a punish you were intended to be safe if you stop at 2 hits but it doesn't work as it's supposed to on some characters

these are the obvious fixes right now, as for the other stuff i'm really not sure, her kit seems very solid besides one very glaring weakness and that's being pressured upclose, D1 being 9 frames of startup and D3 having very little range hurts her quite a lot, for example if geras will poke you with d1 on block and will do another d1 you have no options besides walking back, trading d1s on his next one or trying to jump (or i guess blocking multiple d1s? wow, fun right?)

i suppose some QOL changes can go a long way, like making her S1 and S3 have more horizontal hitbox will make some punishes a little easier but really the main thing atm is whiff issues and her d1 against 6fr d1s which i'm not sure how exactly they could fix, potentially by speeding it up at least to 8frames of startup?
B1 being faster will definitely be nice but making it 9-11 frames doesn't make too much sense, it will be way too good for her archetype imo, you want her to be able to check people but not pressure them like rushdown characters can

Oh and anti-projectile barrier is trash, making EX absorb all incoming projectiles would make it a little better but right now it's usability is very questionable

 

[Kindred]

I think b1 should be 11-9 frames to be really useful as of right now if she gets rushed down she kinda can’t do shit. There should not be 2 gaps in her b32d1 string AND it be unsafe on block. I’m fine with the last hit being unsafe but make b3 less negative so we can stagger or take outthe gaps, b3 shouldn’t be unsafe on block. She has no mix no staggers can’t punish and all for what? For decent zoning? Her fireballs have too much recovery for her to really zone some characters and her ex shield should eat 2 projectiles or something. Idk let’s brainstorm some fixes for her. Also get auger krushing blow pushes her back why? Is that a bug? It should be removed

Yea like Xzyj said, you arent really asking for the right things. She is a space control character, not a rushdown. A low being a stagger doesnt make much sense here. Shes also not a zoner. She has tools to deal with zoners but her "zoning" is mainly a deterrent for other zoners. For example, doing her shield to absorb a projectile and following it up with her arching exploding projectile (which is fast af might I add) forces the opponent to rethink their zoning ideas.

The problems with her shield arise when the opponent has double projectiles (Jade) or against moves like Skarlett's blood worm she conjures in the air (dunno the name). But then again, thats more case by case. She has a lot of tools to close the space and her Frost-Byte bomb really forces a zoning opponent to stop.

Personally i don't think she needs a lot, she is really good at what she's supposed to be good, but she hurts from hitbox failures:
-B121 last hit should not randomly whiff on duck blocking/ducking opponents, the whole string is unsafe up until the last hit, and while you can do B12-spin for the problematic matchups when it whiffs as of now, it's main purpose is creating space on block and creating combo opportunities on throw/mid mindgame
-B32 second hit should not randomly whiff on ducking/duck blocking opponents, since B3 is unsafe by itself and B32D1 is unsafe and has a gap it's very clear they wanted this to be a combo filler string and a punishment string, however if you missed a punish you were intended to be safe if you stop at 2 hits but it doesn't work as it's supposed to on some characters

these are the obvious fixes right now, as for the other stuff i'm really not sure, her kit seems very solid besides one very glaring weakness and that's being pressured upclose, D1 being 9 frames of startup and D3 having very little range hurts her quite a lot, for example if geras will poke you with d1 on block and will do another d1 you have no options besides walking back, trading d1s on his next one or trying to jump (or i guess blocking multiple d1s? wow, fun right?)

i suppose some QOL changes can go a long way, like making her S1 and S3 have more horizontal hitbox will make some punishes a little easier but really the main thing atm is whiff issues and her d1 against 6fr d1s which i'm not sure how exactly they could fix, potentially by speeding it up at least to 8frames of startup?
B1 being faster will definitely be nice but making it 9-11 frames doesn't make too much sense, it will be way too good for her archetype imo, you want her to be able to check people but not pressure them like rushdown characters can

Oh and anti-projectile barrier is trash, making EX absorb all incoming projectiles would make it a little better but right now it's usability is very questionable

She has some hitbox issues for sure. The ones you mentioned, I feel are actual errors and not a conscious decision by the devs (at least I hope so).
But her issue when getting pressured isnt so much due to a slow 9f D1. Having a faster D1 wouldnt really solve much. Its like putting a bandaid on her severed leg lol
Her issue is that after blocking a poke or landing a D1 or D3, she has no viable options. Her B1 is too slow at 16f to start her pressure consistently when landing a D1, so opponents like Geras can poke away forever. Blocking a poke and trying to start a string also doesnt work because her fastest moves, S1 and S3, have shit range so they wont reach and her B1 or B3 or B2 are too slow so the opponent who got his D1 blocked can start his 7 or 8f S1 pressure and you are out of reach or in the process of getting your slow ass mid out.

The fixes are simple:

• Make B1 a 13f move. This way, if you confirm a D1 and you are at +10f, your move comes out in 3f for the opponent and no one has a 3f D1 to mash so they have to respect the fact that it isnt their turn anymore.
• Fix her hitbox issues on B121 and B32, like u said
• Increase the horizontal range of S1 and S3 so that they can be used as reliable punishing tools for moves like Scorpions teleport or for anyone trying to start a string out-of-turn, i.e. their poke was blocked but they are still mashing a S1 starter for a string.

These 3 things, will: allow her to deal with pressure, not lose her turn and, combined with her anti-zoning & superior space control, will make her a character that isnt necessarily high tier, but that is at least viable and less frustrating.

(As for the shield, I wrote my thoughts about it in response to JSF at the beginning of this post)

 

[JSF]

i don't think you're asking for the right things, she excels at spacing and you want buffs for rushdown basically, for now she hurts the most from 6 frame d1s and blockstrings with very little minus on them into poke mindgame because it's hard to check people with something decent, so risk reward is in their favor to do random bullshit or spam d1 at you until you want to stop playing this game and play other decent fighting games that don't become just a poke war.

Personally i don't think she needs a lot, she is really good at what she's supposed to be good, but she hurts from hitbox failures:
-B121 last hit should not randomly whiff on duck blocking/ducking opponents, the whole string is unsafe up until the last hit, and while you can do B12-spin for the problematic matchups when it whiffs as of now, it's main purpose is creating space on block and creating combo opportunities on throw/mid mindgame
-B32 second hit should not randomly whiff on ducking/duck blocking opponents, since B3 is unsafe by itself and B32D1 is unsafe and has a gap it's very clear they wanted this to be a combo filler string and a punishment string, however if you missed a punish you were intended to be safe if you stop at 2 hits but it doesn't work as it's supposed to on some characters

these are the obvious fixes right now, as for the other stuff i'm really not sure, her kit seems very solid besides one very glaring weakness and that's being pressured upclose, D1 being 9 frames of startup and D3 having very little range hurts her quite a lot, for example if geras will poke you with d1 on block and will do another d1 you have no options besides walking back, trading d1s on his next one or trying to jump (or i guess blocking multiple d1s? wow, fun right?)

i suppose some QOL changes can go a long way, like making her S1 and S3 have more horizontal hitbox will make some punishes a little easier but really the main thing atm is whiff issues and her d1 against 6fr d1s which i'm not sure how exactly they could fix, potentially by speeding it up at least to 8frames of startup?
B1 being faster will definitely be nice but making it 9-11 frames doesn't make too much sense, it will be way too good for her archetype imo, you want her to be able to check people but not pressure them like rushdown characters can

Oh and anti-projectile barrier is trash, making EX absorb all incoming projectiles would make it a little better but right now it's usability is very questionable

she doesnt really excel at anything. i dont want her to be all rushdown and 50/50s but i want her to not be extremely unsafe if she does do some in your face fighting. if her up close game is gonna be as bad as it is then her mid range needs to be amazing and it isnt. b2 is a good mid range poke but has a shit ton of recovery, (i forgot to mention her ICE BURST NEEDS MORE RANGE!!!) and from its furthest ranges you cant combo and b22 has a huge gap. i just want b1 to be faster so she can punish with it her standing 1 has laughable range. her d1 should be 7 frames because her d3 has the worst/most awkward range.
and i dont really care about archetypes (i mean cetrion has low/overhead mixups and krushing blow punishes that can do 400 damage soooo do they matter?) i just want frost to be better. overall less recovery on her strings would go a long way too

 

[Seijuro]

I played abunch of ranked sets with Frost last night, and for the life of me couldn't pull off the b2212 string (KB on punish). The b22 comes out no problem, but the final two hits I managed to do once in a good 50 tries. Not sure why, is the timing on these different?

 

[ShadyHeart]

I played abunch of ranked sets with Frost last night, and for the life of me couldn't pull off the b2212 string (KB on punish). The b22 comes out no problem, but the final two hits I managed to do once in a good 50 tries. Not sure why, is the timing on these different?

Strings in this game don't have timing. Input the whole thing all at once and it'll do the entire string. You can input it all before the first hit even lands provided you were fast enough. You must input the 12 before the cancel window on the second 2 ends however. You can see where the cancel window ends by inputting a special. The frame before the special starts to come out is the deadline (or the frame of, not sure).

If you press extra buttons in the middle of a string it also prevents it from coming out.

 

[Seijuro]

Strings in this game don't have timing. Input the whole thing all at once and it'll do the entire string. You can input it all before the first hit even lands provided you were fast enough. You must input the 12 before the cancel window on the second 2 ends however. You can see where the cancel window ends by inputting a special. The frame before the special starts to come out is the deadline (or the frame of, not sure).

If you press extra buttons in the middle of a string it also prevents it from coming out.

Thanks, I will hit practice later today, probably wasn't fast enough with the input then.

 

[Xzyj]

you pretty much want to hitconfirm by sliding your thumb across 1 and 2 in quick succession, hope that helps

 

[Ehndur]

So, I've been trying to make use of her 1 and 2 strings.

What do you guys think about using 3, 4, 4 as a restand option with +16 frames on hit (I've seen someone talk about this, can't remember who), to make sure 1 and 2 connect, even if it's on block.

So, either in a post Microburst AMP combo on a standing opp, or on its own.
It gives you the option to either dash-up throw, 1 strings or 2 strings.

I like the throw option because of her KBs.
But what interests me is the 1 and 2 options.

1, 3 is hit confirmable into Microburst, (or any other special)
1, 3, 2 is +3 on block with a bit of push back, which gives you options. It's -7 on a Flawless Block.
1, 3, 4 is -2 on block but can hit people trying to F/Block the 2 ender.

2, 2 is +5 on block with little push back, really interesting.
2, 2, 4 is hit confirmable, while still being safe. It does a ton of damage compared to a 2, 2 Special Cancel with no bar.
2, 2, 3 I don't really see the point of this string though, feel free to enlighten me.

So, what's your opinion on this ?

Edit : Also, I forgot to consider the fact that it prevents any breakaway, although it's not too severe on Frost.

 

[Xzyj]

^ i do it rarely as a gimmick if i want to cheat some damage or throw off my opponents game but usually i go for delay throw or b3 starter mindgame but i don't think there's merit to do it consistently since you lose on a lot of damage

 

[Ehndur]

^ i do it rarely as a gimmick if i want to cheat some damage or throw off my opponents game but usually i go for delay throw or b3 starter mindgame but i don't think there's merit to do it consistently since you lose on a lot of damage

Yes but that's the risk - reward.
It's low risk, high reward for a damage trade-off.

Let's say you do B2, 2 * Microburst AMP * JI1 * B3, 2, D1 * S1 * 1, 4 * Auger Lunge --> It's 289. It's not an optimal combo, but one of the most consistent imo.


Now B2, 2 * Microburst AMP * JI1 * 3, 4, 4 --> It's 216 so a difference of 73.

Then you use 2, 2 and hit confirm it into 4 which does 139 damage that add to the 216.
Or maybe 2, 2 was on block, and you then use the +5 frames to successfully throw for 140.
Or you decided to use 1, 3 and hit confirmed it into Auger Lunge, and it's +139 aswell.

None of that is guaranteed of course (and so is the standard combo if opp has breakaway), but the risk is so low (basically 0) that it's worth trying imo.

 

[SkyratiK]

Anyone talking about how wrong the frame data is on all cryogenic crowns? +71 on block? Lol

 

[jcbowie]

I didn't see anyone else mention anything about it, but in the Ice Machine variation has anyone had issues with 1,3xxdb4EX whiffing as a punish? Like I'll get the 1,3 to connect but sometimes seemingly at random the db4 will whiff entirely and I'm not sure why. Had it happen a couple times in a set against a Jax last night.

 

[Kanalratte]

hi could someone explain what sonic ment when he was talking about her shimmy? couldn't understand him because the music was too loud in his stream.

 

[Xzyj]

I didn't see anyone else mention anything about it, but in the Ice Machine variation has anyone had issues with 1,3xxdb4EX whiffing as a punish? Like I'll get the 1,3 to connect but sometimes seemingly at random the db4 will whiff entirely and I'm not sure why. Had it happen a couple times in a set against a Jax last night.

Never had that happen personally, or it was so rare that i don't even remember it but i assume what happened is you hit him out of some animation that left him far away after being hit

hi could someone explain what sonic ment when he was talking about her shimmy? couldn't understand him because the music was too loud in his stream.

pretty sure he meant coming close to the opponent and enforcing a mindgame between throw and 344 string, implying that if they try to tech the throw they get hit by a lot of active frames of S3 into full combo, however if they anticipate throw by ducking instead of teching this will not work due to S3 being a high, it's still good though

 

[Pan1cMode]

Yes but that's the risk - reward.
It's low risk, high reward for a damage trade-off.

Let's say you do B2, 2 * Microburst AMP * JI1 * B3, 2, D1 * S1 * 1, 4 * Auger Lunge --> It's 289. It's not an optimal combo, but one of the most consistent imo.


Now B2, 2 * Microburst AMP * JI1 * 3, 4, 4 --> It's 216 so a difference of 73.

Then you use 2, 2 and hit confirm it into 4 which does 139 damage that add to the 216.
Or maybe 2, 2 was on block, and you then use the +5 frames to successfully throw for 140.
Or you decided to use 1, 3 and hit confirmed it into Auger Lunge, and it's +139 aswell.

None of that is guaranteed of course (and so is the standard combo if opp has breakaway), but the risk is so low (basically 0) that it's worth trying imo.

Same combo with j2 instead of j1 does 300+

Should be going for that against all opponents. Only go for ji1 for the side switch.

You have to do a deep jump in to make sure the ji2 hits.

 

[JSF]

Same combo with j2 instead of j1 does 300+

Should be going for that against all opponents. Only go for ji1 for the side switch.

You have to do a deep jump in to make sure the ji2 hits.

j2 if you have the execution and connection to do it consistently but j1 is guaranteed if you can live without the extra 5-10%

 

[Pan1cMode]

j2 if you have the execution and connection to do it consistently but j1 is guaranteed if you can live without the extra 5-10%

I mean, it’s a jump in. It’s not that execution heavy. 5-10% is a hefty sacrifice for just a jump in.

Should be going into training mode to get that one down.

 

[jcbowie]

Never had that happen personally, or it was so rare that i don't even remember it but i assume what happened is you hit him out of some animation that left him far away after being hit

Thanks, I'll look more into that matchup I suppose.