What's new

For the Lin Kuei! Sub-Zero General Discussion

Roy Arkon

I will leave my seal on you!
I actually made a comparison chart of all the stats, and there's a couple characters with weirdly badly skewed stats? Grodd and GL are the ones I remember offhand, but does this matter at all? Like I get that competitively the stats are what they are, but does this mean anything in terms of optimal playstyle or can it be mostly disregarded because frames and tech are more important?

Edit: Manta and Starfire are also kinda wack.
I suppose they are. I remember Ultra David on commentary in a major mentioning that Darkseid has the lowest DEF in the game but the highest HP in the game as well, and he said that in reference to Darkseid's viability in the competitive meta, so I guess it does imply, but to a lesser degree in comparison to frames and tech.
 

Invincible Salads

Seeker of knowledge

so yah i've been kinda doing this with sub tho not quite the same way.

i'm confused tho about why the need to wait before doing the ji2 till the moment they are about to unfreeze, its all about making use of the hitstun from j2 right? don't understand why you need to wait to do that....
 

Lokheit

Noob
Has anyone figured out how these values like *actually* manifest themselves in the game? Like I get what values each stat corresponds to more broadly, but do they directly translate into particular damage multipliers/reducers or something?

I asked this question awhile ago on here and on the reddit and got answers of "We don't know" and "Stop thinking about things besides gear posts" respectively...
Yeah I've posted the formula a number of times around here since release. All characters have the same number of total attribute points, but they're distributed differently.

Damage = Move damage number (the one from the moves screen) * damage multiplier attribute (either str or abl) / defense.

Basically as defense is a direct divisor, the "real resistance" of a character is health * defense. Also given how damage can be tweaked and balanced editing moves rather modifying attributes, the offensive attributes are crap (it's even better to have lower initial ones as gear will increase your base numbers by a higher %). The defensive attributes synergize with each other as they're multiplicative while the offensive ones in addition to being a smoke screen with zero benefits, also don't synergize with each other as they affect different moves.

So in short:

- The whole attribute system is a mess.

- Offensive attributes have no value and if you play with gear it's better to have the lowest possible ones without gear so you get more value (adding 100 to 100 is doubling the base damage, adding 100 to 50 is multiplying the base damage by 3).

- Defensive attributes synergize with each other and the higher you get each of them the better. A balanced distribution between both of them is better (1200*1200 is superior to 1000*1400). I would seriously recommend to use only defensive gear unless the sum of attributes is much better on other gear pieces.
 

jcbowie

...more deadly than the dawn.
Yeah I've posted the formula a number of times around here since release. All characters have the same number of total attribute points, but they're distributed differently.

Damage = Move damage number (the one from the moves screen) * damage multiplier attribute (either str or abl) / defense.

Basically as defense is a direct divisor, the "real resistance" of a character is health * defense. Also given how damage can be tweaked and balanced editing moves rather modifying attributes, the offensive attributes are crap (it's even better to have lower initial ones as gear will increase your base numbers by a higher %). The defensive attributes synergize with each other as they're multiplicative while the offensive ones in addition to being a smoke screen with zero benefits, also don't synergize with each other as they affect different moves.

So in short:

- The whole attribute system is a mess.

- Offensive attributes have no value and if you play with gear it's better to have the lowest possible ones without gear so you get more value (adding 100 to 100 is doubling the base damage, adding 100 to 50 is multiplying the base damage by 3).

- Defensive attributes synergize with each other and the higher you get each of them the better. A balanced distribution between both of them is better (1200*1200 is superior to 1000*1400). I would seriously recommend to use only defensive gear unless the sum of attributes is much better on other gear pieces.
Thanks so much! It actually really bothered me not knowing this.
 

Roy Arkon

I will leave my seal on you!
Yeah I've posted the formula a number of times around here since release. All characters have the same number of total attribute points, but they're distributed differently.

Damage = Move damage number (the one from the moves screen) * damage multiplier attribute (either str or abl) / defense.

Basically as defense is a direct divisor, the "real resistance" of a character is health * defense. Also given how damage can be tweaked and balanced editing moves rather modifying attributes, the offensive attributes are crap (it's even better to have lower initial ones as gear will increase your base numbers by a higher %). The defensive attributes synergize with each other as they're multiplicative while the offensive ones in addition to being a smoke screen with zero benefits, also don't synergize with each other as they affect different moves.

So in short:

- The whole attribute system is a mess.

- Offensive attributes have no value and if you play with gear it's better to have the lowest possible ones without gear so you get more value (adding 100 to 100 is doubling the base damage, adding 100 to 50 is multiplying the base damage by 3).

- Defensive attributes synergize with each other and the higher you get each of them the better. A balanced distribution between both of them is better (1200*1200 is superior to 1000*1400). I would seriously recommend to use only defensive gear unless the sum of attributes is much better on other gear pieces.
I highly disagree with this statement, when I go to the Multiverse mode and use Gear with high offensive stats these Gear pieces do increase the damage output significaty. Also how did you get this information? It really doesn't seem right.

Is Sub-Zero limited in tools?
What do you mean? If you mean in the competitive meta, then no, he is not. He can go both offensively and defensively by close range pressure and good damaging combos with good anti-Rushdown, and he does have the right tools to do all of that. He also has a very good Anti-Air in D2 that doesn't have hurtbox, and he got a good mobility tool in Slide that can go under most projectiles in the game. So no, he is not limited in tools at all.
 

jcbowie

...more deadly than the dawn.
I highly disagree with this statement, when I go to the Multiverse mode and use Gear with high offensive stats these Gear pieces do increase the damage output significaty. Also how did you get this information? It really doesn't seem right.
His point wasn't that having high str or abl gear pieces didn't do very much, but that it increases damage more noticeably on characters who already had low base values for their relevant damage stat.
 

Stanlos

Royal Contributor
Royal Contributor
I highly disagree with this statement, when I go to the Multiverse mode and use Gear with high offensive stats these Gear pieces do increase the damage output significaty. Also how did you get this information? It really doesn't seem right.



What do you mean? If you mean in the competitive meta, then no, he is not. He can go both offensively and defensively by close range pressure and good damaging combos with good anti-Rushdown, and he does have the right tools to do all of that. He also has a very good Anti-Air in D2 that doesn't have hurtbox, and he got a good mobility tool in Slide that can go under most projectiles in the game. So no, he is not limited in tools at all.
Thanks! I noticed in a SharePlay session that the Subzero he faxed just did sweep and slide and I wondered if that was player choice or if he didn't have other tools. I thought he had LOTS of tools when he came out but since I don't play as him I thought I would ask the experts!
 

Roy Arkon

I will leave my seal on you!
His point wasn't that having high str or abl gear pieces didn't do very much, but that it increases damage more noticeably on characters who already had low base values for their relevant damage stat.
It is still sounds weird to be true. I at least never felt that way when I was playing.
 

Lokheit

Noob
I highly disagree with this statement, when I go to the Multiverse mode and use Gear with high offensive stats these Gear pieces do increase the damage output significaty. Also how did you get this information? It really doesn't seem right.

I'm talking about vanilla stats.

Having low vanilla stats is actually better. In competitive mode they're not important (damage can be tweaked by changing moveset damage) and defensive stats make a difference in competitive mode so given how all characters have the same sum of stats, those that have more points on defensive atributes are better stat wise.

In competitive mode given how a character's damage is balanced at X, having lower vanilla offensive numbers is better because any point spent on those stats makes the % increase of X better than if X was higher.

I know all the formulas from testing them myself for several hours during each game's life span. I've labed the s** out of MKX and I2 game formulas, I have the damage scaling formulas, the meter building formulas, how stats work... I've been meaning to release some kind of video guide explaining all of them, but a combination of life getting in the way and a dose of procastination prevented it, but trust me, I've run those numbers plenty of times and I know I'm correct.

Those who are used to read my posts know that I'm always detecting damage scaling anomalies for many characters (moves scaling damage way too much when they shouldn't and that kind of stuff).

And while at some point starting to invest in offensive attributes would be ok, any investment in defensive ones specially from scratch is better.

Let's say you had 1000 at all your attributes, let's say you invest 2000 points on both offensive ones, so you have 1000+1000 str and 1000+1000 abl, you're doubling your damage output from normal and special moves. Now let's say you did the same with defensive attributes, you go from 1000*1000 (so 1000000) to 2000*2000 (so 4000000) because they work together, which means that the same number of stat points that would double your damage output, can quadruple your resistance to damage.

Of course you will notice an increase in damage output with offensive stats, but defensive stats are just way better optimized (plus making games longer rewards skill over luck so anyone with experience would also benefit from that).

For competitive play, offensive stats mean NOTHING because the balance team could make a character's damage go down without touching the stats (see Black Adam) and many character's with the same offensive stats deal very different amounts of damage outputs per combo, but defensive stats actually make characters resist more damage on competitive mode.
 
Last edited:

Roy Arkon

I will leave my seal on you!
I'm talking about vanilla stats.

Having low vanilla stats is actually better. In competitive mode they're not important (damage can be tweaked by changing moveset damage) and defensive stats make a difference in competitive mode so given how all characters have the same sum of stats, those that have more points on defensive atributes are better stat wise.

In competitive mode given how a character's damage is balanced at X, having lower vanilla offensive numbers is better because any point spent on those stats makes the % increase of X better than if X was higher.

I know all the formulas from testing them myself for several hours during each game's life span. I've labed the s** out of MKX and I2 game formulas, I have the damage scaling formulas, the meter building formulas, how stats work... I've been meaning to release some kind of video guide explaining all of them, but a combination of life getting in the way and a dose of procastination prevented it, but trust me, I've run those numbers plenty of times and I know I'm correct.

Those who are used to read my posts know that I'm always detecting damage scaling anomalies for many characters (moves scaling damage way too much when they shouldn't and that kind of stuff).

And while at some point starting to invest in offensive attributes would be ok, any investment in defensive ones specially from scratch is better.

Let's say you had 1000 at all your attributes, let's say you invest 2000 points on both offensive ones, so you have 1000+1000 str and 1000+1000 abl, you're doubling your damage output from normal and special moves. Now let's say you did the same with defensive attributes, you go from 1000*1000 (so 1000000) to 2000*2000 (so 4000000) because they work together, which means that the same number of stat points that would double your damage output, can quadruple your resistance to damage.

Of course you will notice an increase in damage output with offensive stats, but defensive stats are just way better optimized (plus making games longer rewards skill over luck so anyone with experience would also benefit from that).

For competitive play, offensive stats mean NOTHING because the balance team could make a character's damage go down without touching the stats (see Black Adam) and many character's with the same offensive stats deal very different amounts of damage outputs per combo, but defensive stats actually make characters resist more damage on competitive mode.
Ok I get it now, thanks for the explanation. :)

Lol!.. Zoners destroy Him simply... Also the defensive tools of him are way too slow.. Except for slide... which is highly punishable.
Yes he's gonna get harder times against Zoners and he isn't gonna do any Zoning of his own, so he isn't versatile in that regard, but he can still deal with Zoners to some degree, and his Slide is more of a mobility/Rushdown tool rather then a defensive one. As for Anti-Rushdown however, Sub-Zero is very good with his tools.
 
Last edited:

Lokheit

Noob
Ok I get now, thanks for the explanation. :)
Just to add to what I said, for easy multiverses that you just want to finish fast and you know you're not going to struggle, offensive stats are alright because you're not goig to get hit much anyway, but for balanced matchups they're not so useful.
 

Roy Arkon

I will leave my seal on you!
Just to add to what I said, for easy multiverses that you just want to finish fast and you know you're not going to struggle, offensive stats are alright because you're not goig to get hit much anyway, but for balanced matchups they're not so useful.
Obviously in the harder Multiverse events and especially in the boss ones it is still tough. I remember that in the Legends of Tomorrow and Flash TV Events, all of the bosses had like 3600 points of HP, and I had to use only Firestorm or Flash, who I'm obviously not very good with, which only added to the difficulty of it even more.
 

Roy Arkon

I will leave my seal on you!

so yah i've been kinda doing this with sub tho not quite the same way.

i'm confused tho about why the need to wait before doing the ji2 till the moment they are about to unfreeze, its all about making use of the hitstun from j2 right? don't understand why you need to wait to do that....
Yes that's the reason, that way you can start the 50/50 with the opponent have to make on how to block and if he can backdash or not.
 

Invincible Salads

Seeker of knowledge
Yes that's the reason, that way you can start the 50/50 with the opponent have to make on how to block and if he can backdash or not.
but if you hit em before the unfreeze you still get the hit advantage anyways, so i don't see the point, it'll still work that way won't it?
 

Lokheit

Noob
but if you hit em before the unfreeze you still get the hit advantage anyways, so i don't see the point, it'll still work that way won't it?
I need to test it but it might be because the animation makes SZ next jump attack work like intended for the 50/50 (going out of freeze makes them backpedal a bit).
 

ChoseDeath

Seriously Casual Player.
Premium Supporter
Not asking for buffs.

I pretty much just play Sub-Zero and am always trying to find ways around his weaknesses. Hell, I used to play Unbreakable when he wasn't good with GM when he wasn't near Top tier. So I'm used to working around things.

He needs help though. The majority of the Sub community think just tiny little tweaks will help him be Mid Tier. He still loses most match ups.

Anyway, these are from the official Patch Notes:

Sub-Zero - Max base stat attributes changed to Health - 1150, Defense - 1450, Strength - 1600, Ability - 1650 (from Health - 1050, Defense - 1500, Strength - 1700, Ability - 1600

Strength may be a Damage Nerf so that is a considerable change. We need some one to test it out. Maybe the 1650 Ability from 1600 balances things out but Strength will affect his combo strings.
As a Grodd and Bane player, I get really excited when I see Sub because I'm feeling a win coming on. I think y'all need a bit of assistance.
 

Ralenzo

Noob
Man, Sub Zero's damage output is noticeable lower now.
Some of my 1 bar combos deal less damage than my meterless ones from before the patch.

Was there a reason for him to get nerfed? Did anyone find a hidden buff perhaps?