For Honor

[freerf245]

I swear in the open beta you could only attack from one side if you followed up kensei's swift strike with a chain? At the moment you can change directions to follow up.

THANK YOU. I thought i was crazy

 

[freerf245]

This swift strike bs shouldnt be a thing lol

 

[CrazyFingers]

Am I the only one that thinks Kensei got real stupidly good in the open beta and I assume he's not very different yea?

 

[Thefish]

THANK YOU. I thought i was crazy

hey I love it he's my boi! I think it's great lol. I swear I seen a quide on him in here aswell that said somewhere in the vid it's a fixed angle. His heavy overhead after swift strike is deadly.

 

[Aramonde]

Had an awesome set with this random guy. I wasnt keeping score but im sure it was somewhere around 8,9 or 10 me and 2 or 3 for him. Man Conq's heavy>Shield Bash>heavy>Shield Bash loop is so cheap XD

Okay I completely hear you, baiting can be effective at opening people ul for sure and we have plenty of ways to do it. However! Just because bait exists doesn't mean you need to take it. Now that's not me saying "Just do nothing and win"what I'm saying is that opening up someone's defense is harder than just "Imma bait em" some baits can absolutely be reacted to (barring a couple of characters, I'm fucking looking at you Warlord) so while baiting is 100% a viable way to apply pressure/open up your opponent safely, it is not this end all be all that it seems lime you're making it out to be (I'm assuming, if I'm wrong feel free to tell me) I'm of the opinion that this game has equal rewards for good offense and good defense. I believe I already said that awhile back in the thread. However I am also of the opinion that offensive play is a lot more difficult to execute against good players due to how slow a lot of hits are. I already broke down archtypes further back and how some characters have easier time with offense than others so instead I'm going to talk about the newcomers (specifically Shugoki and Lawbringer since those are the ones im more familiar with and they're a bit less straight forward than Valkyrie who might be the biggest potato this game has to offer) first! Shugoki. He is our more defensive character of the two here. He's slow, super reactable, death on whiff for a lot of moves. HOWEVER, he opens people up by either baiting (like you said) or armoring through shit. He is one of the most defensive characters in this game right now imo. You wont be applying pressure while your opponent is blocking, simple as that. NEXT we have Lawbringer who I believe is not only being slept on but he might actually stupid good, but there's one thing holding him back but we'll get to that. Lawbringer is CLEARLY supposed to be in your face, grabbing you pushing you around and just making your day bad. He has one tool that is make or break for the character, his push. EVERYTHING this man does for pressure stems from that terrifying push. The catch? T-rex arms for days. But! He is an offensive character in this game that has EXCELLENT defensive options. Which means he can ALSO be played defensively, which is where the point im trying to make comes into play. Defensive characters in this game (im talking about the Wardens, the Shugokis, the Conquerors, the Kenseis etc etc) don't have much room to play offensively, so you're rarely gonna see them do that because why would they when their defensive tools are just better than their offensive tools. However! This game has great defensive tools universally! That means not only are the defense guys playing defense but the offense guys can play great defense as well! Prime example, fucking Orochi (i hate this character excuse my profanity) you have extremely quick buttons, good mixups, great damage. Just all in all a very solid offensive character. HOWEVER this character also has one of the best defensive tools ever which is his/her dodge attacks which become mixups BY THEMSELVES. So you have Orochi using his offensive tools in tandem with the defensive ones but it simply looks like they're being PURELY defensive which just isn't the case. You can't play them purely defensively (them being assassins) it's not in their hardware, it does not compute. Hope that didn't get too rambly and hope i added to the conversation

That is quite the mountain of text there

 

[Juggs]

Am I the only one that thinks Kensei got real stupidly good in the open beta and I assume he's not very different yea?

Haven't used him but I've seen some REALLY good ones on streams. He seems legit.

 

[Basic Stupidity]

Bait me from turtling? That doesn't make any sense.




Then you're getting parried and punished.




Sure, thats why I said "best option".



Sure you can. I've reacted parry lights many times and so have many many other players. It isn't easy but it's certainly possible. Will know more once we get the frame data.



Yes it does. You react to it. So are you suggesting you can't even react BLOCK light attacks? Do you smoke reefer before you play or something? lul



Player 1 WAS turtling. Didn't think I had to literally walk you through it step by step by step. They both were turtling, THEN the player 1 decides not to turtle and tries a feint. C'mon now, when you say stuff like this it's hard to argue against people saying you're trolling.



Again, doesn't make any sense. You can parry a feint attack, regardless of the players skill using the feint attack. It's not easy, sure, but I never said it was. Simply feinting against a player who is turtling accomplishes what exactly? You're just gonna keep feinting and wasting stamina for no reason? Ok go nuts, lul. And you don't whiff punish an attack that hasn't happened, aka a feint.

"Bait me from turtling? That doesn't make any sense."
"Then you're getting parried and punished"
I dont know how many times I have to say this feint is made to counter parrys that is the purpose of them, if you try to parry my heavy and I feint I punish you, if you wait for the feint my heavy hits you or your block.

Best option is subjective to the player and I feel that feints arent my best option the majority of the time.

"Sure you can. I've reacted parry lights many times and so have many many other players. It isn't easy but it's certainly possible." I specifically said most not all.
"Yes it does. You react to it. So are you suggesting you can't even react BLOCK light attacks? Do you smoke reefer before you play or something? lul" yes some light attacks are unreactable on block doesnt mean you cant block them.

"Again, doesn't make any sense. You can parry a feint attack, regardless of the players skill using the feint attack. It's not easy, sure, but I never said it was. Simply feinting against a player who is turtling accomplishes what exactly? You're just gonna keep feinting and wasting stamina for no reason? Ok go nuts, lul. And you don't whiff punish an attack that hasn't happened, aka a feint."

You cant react parry a feint attack unless the player is really bad.
Feinting against a player turtling ensures they dont see your attack coming and parry it.
"And you don't whiff punish an attack that hasn't happened, aka a feint."
There are other ways of baiting you know

 

[CrazyFingers]

Had an awesome set with this random guy. I wasnt keeping score but im sure it was somewhere around 8,9 or 10 me and 2 or 3 for him. Man Conq's heavy>Shield Bash>heavy>Shield Bash loop is so cheap XD




That is quite the mountain of text there

Conq is really solid. And if you wanna you can even read that mountain of texts apologies I don't do TL;DRs cuz I'm lazy

 

[Aramonde]

Conq is really solid. And if you wanna you can even read that mountain of texts apologies I don't do TL;DRs cuz I'm lazy

Lol ya might want to use some line breaks from time to time bud. So have you picked a main yet?

 

[CrazyFingers]

Lol ya might want to use some line breaks from time to time bud. So have you picked a main yet?

I want to actually grab the full game hopefully tomorrow. I'm trying Shugoki immediately and grinding that out.

 

[Aramonde]

Fuck that stupid cunt Nobushi. The amount of damage she does and how fast her moves are is ridiculous.

 

[CrazyFingers]

Fuck that stupid (soap bar in my mouth) Nobushi. The amount of damage she does and how fast her moves are is ridiculous.

I felt like people were sleeping on her in the beta. She's got some dumb shit. BUT SHUGOKI GONNA JUST ARMOR RIGHT THROUGH AND MIIIIIIIIX.

 

[GAV]

 

[freerf245]

hey I love it he's my boi! I think it's great lol. I swear I seen a quide on him in here aswell that said somewhere in the vid it's a fixed angle. His heavy overhead after swift strike is deadly.

No.

 

[GAV]

@Juggs @Basic Stupidity

Even though you guys are arguing, the discussion you guys are having is solid. No one can argue that most players are going defensive now - but once everyone gets their offenses down, I think it will shift to a solid give and take balance. The timing and angles on attacks are variable enough to stretch defenses thin, but not without complete move-sets at your disposal. Its still early and most of us have been playing MKX of the I2 beta and FH seems like the polar opposite of those games right now.

 

[GAV]

Conq is really solid. And if you wanna you can even read that mountain of texts apologies I don't do TL;DRs cuz I'm lazy

You actually can feint with Conqueror. Just start up a heavy attack and then hard block. You can't follow with an attack effectively, but you can bait an attack.

 

[SHAOLIN]

Fuck it, I can't take it anymore. Was gonna hold out for a bit ( lol its Ubisoft), but I need this game in my life.


Brb, going to Target. . .

 

[Dizzy]

Am I the only one that thinks Kensei got real stupidly good in the open beta and I assume he's not very different yea?

Honestly, the only real reason I see playing him is the opponent has less options for the free hit after being parried because he gets pushed back so much. You can't do a "normal" BNB of guard break into heavy.

His gameplan from when I used him, and saw other competent people play him, seems 100% based around parries and baiting, which every other character in the game can do too, while also having other tools available. His mixup into unblockable or canceled into side light is pointless when the opponent has some open space, because you can back dash into back roll to avoid the whole situation. I even tried to do unblockable finisher into feint, to forward dash grab and it seems like the back roll is guard break immune for some reason. I suppose you could maybe do unblockable finisher feint into forward dash light, but that is a ton of stamina and a hard read for something that would lose to the opponent doing literally anything else

Also, apparently in the beta, Kensei side dash light attack was punishable on block (not parry) with a free inescapable guard break. Not sure if that's still the case but if so...that makes it even less viable for "randomly" trying it. It's viable to parry it on reaction but having it punishable on block gives no risk.

 

[Dizzy]

Whilst I was playing conq, it seems i couldn't tech the guard breaks whilst I was charging my heavy attack. Can anyone else confirm? not sure if this is a bug or intentional either.

A bit of a late reply, but this was possible in the beta but no longer possible. Maybe a side effect of the guard break changes from beta to release, but can't say for sure.

 

[GetEmStretch]

@Juggs @Basic Stupidity

Even though you guys are arguing, the discussion you guys are having is solid. No one can argue that most players are going defensive now - but once everyone gets their offenses down, I think it will shift to a solid give and take balance. The timing and angles on attacks are variable enough to stretch defenses thin, but not without complete move-sets at your disposal. Its still early and most of us have been playing MKX of the I2 beta and FH seems like the polar opposite of those games right now.

You're right @GAV. I've actually taken the last hour at work to read through all their posts. I only played the closed Beta but spent 0 time in online matches. Instead I stayed in practice mode against bots, trying to perfect the defensive options (blocking, parrying, side stepping/deflecting for Orochi). With that said both of them have valid points but I'm gonna call it now..."ego" ...is preventing either from fully seeing the other's point of view. My interpretation: @Basic Stupidity has been saying that his game plan against a turtle opponent is to condition them with a combination of feinting and feint attacking eventually leading to an opening, because eventually everyone slips up. @Juggs on other hand is saying a great turtle-r will more than likely get damage on an attacker when either they don't fault for a feint or successfully parries/deflects a feint attack leading to a punish. Both are decent game plans. Personally I believe it comes down to player skill and which class/tools being used, as well as match up knowledge as well as reactions.

Lastly, Basic was saying when a turtle-r eventually goes for a Parry on read, they have to use a heavy attack to do so. This is an opening for the original attacker to punish the defensive character trying to out wit them which more than likely will come from conditioning. Something along the lines of attacker feints 2x then eventually feint attacks the 3rd time in a different direction, but then feints 2x like previously but attacks the 3rd time as usual on the same side. Hell, it could be feint 1x then attack 2x top (conditioning) then later feint again 1x but guard break into attack of choice. Just a bunch of different options. Moral of the story is no one is going to feint/feint attack/block/parry/deflect perfectly 100% in this game. It does seem to come down to risk reward just as Juggs was saying to a degree. I just wanted to point out what I picked up between yall's posts. I say ya'll get a grudge match and either stream or post to Youtube each week to demonstrate progression between both of yall and provide me with something to while sitting at my desk at work, lol.

What say you? (In my Ben Stiller voice from Starsky & Hutch) ** Do It. Come on, Do It! **

 

[Basic Stupidity]

You're right @GAV. I've actually taken the last hour at work to read through all their posts. I only played the closed Beta but spent 0 time in online matches. Instead I stayed in practice mode against bots, trying to perfect the defensive options (blocking, parrying, side stepping/deflecting for Orochi). With that said both of them have valid points but I'm gonna call it now..."ego" ...is preventing either from fully seeing the other's point of view. My interpretation: @Basic Stupidity has been saying that his game plan against a turtle opponent is to condition them with a combination of feinting and feint attacking eventually leading to an opening, because eventually everyone slips up. @Juggs on other hand is saying a great turtle-r will more than likely get damage on an attacker when either they don't fault for a feint or successfully parries/deflects a feint attack leading to a punish. Both are decent game plans. Personally I believe it comes down to player skill and which class/tools being used, as well as match up knowledge as well as reactions.

Lastly, Basic was saying when a turtle-r eventually goes for a Parry on read, they have to use a heavy attack to do so. This is an opening for the original attacker to punish the defensive character trying to out wit them which more than likely will come from conditioning. Something along the lines of attacker feints 2x then eventually feint attacks the 3rd time in a different direction, but then feints 2x like previously but attacks the 3rd time as usual on the same side. Hell, it could be feint 1x then attack 2x top (conditioning) then later feint again 1x but guard break into attack of choice. Just a bunch of different options. Moral of the story is no one is going to feint/feint attack/block/parry/deflect perfectly 100% in this game. It does seem to come down to risk reward just as Juggs was saying to a degree. I just wanted to point out what I picked up between yall's posts. I say ya'll get a grudge match and either stream or post to Youtube each week to demonstrate progression between both of yall and provide me with something to while sitting at my desk at work, lol.

What say you? (In my Ben Stiller voice from Starsky & Hutch) ** Do It. Come on, Do It! **

I would but I don't have the game for PS4. That's why I wanted to during the beta when I could play on all consoles for free

 

[Juggs]

Yeah that would be fun to have a grudge match thing, but yeah I have it on PS4.

 

[Saboteur-6]

So what's the deal with the Peacekeeper now? Did her bleed get nerfed? I spent most of my time in the Beta's with the Peacekeeper and the Berserker, how do they fare now in the live release? I'm curious if the Valkyrie is hot garbage or not too.

 

[CrazyFingers]

So what's the deal with the Peacekeeper now? Did her bleed get nerfed? I spent most of my time in the Beta's with the Peacekeeper and the Berserker, how do they fare now in the live release? I'm curious if the Valkyrie is hot garbage or not too.

Valkyrie looks preeeetty good and yea Peacekeeper bleed got nerfed.

 

[Saboteur-6]

Is it too early to talk tier lists? Seems like the defensive characters are heavily favored which saddens me because I was hoping to be viable with glass cannon offensive characters (Peacekeeper/Berserker/Nobushi/Orochi).

Feels like the game is balanced around that 4v4 mode and not 1v1 so there's deliberate mismatches like you'd have in a MOBA or Overwatch or something. Not like a true fighting game.