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CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
Just battled a decent one back and forth. Then, next match we were teamed up and we just rolled the other team. He definitely doesn't suck. I underestimated his throw too. It does have some range.
Hope to grab the game this week and embrace my inner Weeb. Weabou Viking COMING THROUGH! YOSH!
 
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CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
I don't see anything wrong with openly discussing the meta. We are both being asshats but I don't really care, I just enjoy talking about the meta.
My meta will involve shoving armor down peoples throats, as it has always been. Warlord? Armor. Shugoki? Armor. Lawbringer? Armor. These will be my trio and I will shove all the armor down all the throats.
 

Yojimzo

One of many Bat-Breakers.
My meta will involve shoving armor down peoples throats, as it has always been. Warlord? Armor. Shugoki? Armor. Lawbringer? Armor. These will be my trio and I will shove all the armor down all the throats.
Disregarding the fact I'm pretty sure the Shugoki wears the least armor in the game, barring Assassins. (Just being a smartass here.)
And yeah, I may have been a bit hyperbolic on my comparison of LB to release Bane earlier but he is not in a good spot right now, anyone with 1% of a brain can dodge shove/Long Arm, for instance.
Honestly, I may just take a break until they get LB up to a... reasonable state.
 
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Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
"You're not presenting an argument to debate"

"All you're essentially saying is that defensive play isn't the best option"
Isn't that an argument
(you then proceed to debate my non argument)
Lets be clear here I never said that the best way to play was to play defensively or offensively I said that turtling is not the best way to play

Feints by themselves are not a defensive move either. Yes they are for baiting which is good vs defensive play.

"And fient attacks, where you cancel the heavy into another attack, while the best option for offense, is still not as good as defensive play. The risk reward factor for playing offensively against a good player is ridiculous compared to playing defensively against a good player." Firstly there is no giant risk for feint attacks and second they are not the best option for offense.
There's not a "giant" risk for feint attacks, correct. But there is a risk. In comparison what is the risk for turtling and playing reactionary?

Let me put it in another way. What would you do to stop me from turtling? Guard breaks have such a high frame window to tech that you can't just throw them out randomly. Can't heavy attack because of parries. Best option is feint attacks, lights, and random zone attacks. Obviously this is in general as the characters have different options.

So now you're limited to feints attacks, feints to bait, light attacks and zone attacks.

Lights can be parried, it's just not super reliable as lights are quick. Can't really speak to much about lights until we know the frame data.

Zone attacks, while quick, the specific characters that have them only attack from the same side, afaik. So keep guard on that side and react to the rest.

So, you're left with feints and feint attacks. Which is how I see most good players duel. It's feints and feint attacks all over the place IF they aren't turtling.

So therefore in my early assessment the meta is going to come down to this. Both players turtling. They're feeling each other out waiting for a mistake to be made. Player 1 gets impatient and throws out a feint. Player 2 doesn't take the bait. So Player 1 follows through with a feint attack.

Either Player 1 succeeds and does some damage. Or Player 2 blocks, and/or parries it and punishes him, or dodges and whiff punishes.

This is how I see the meta being played right now, in a general sense, and how I foresee the future of the meta playing out for awhile.
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
There's not a "giant" risk for feint attacks, correct. But there is a risk. In comparison what is the risk for turtling and playing reactionary?

Let me put it in another way. What would you do to stop me from turtling? Guard breaks have such a high frame window to tech that you can't just throw them out randomly. Can't heavy attack because of parries. Best option is feint attacks, lights, and random zone attacks. Obviously this is in general as the characters have different options.

So now you're limited to feints attacks, feints to bait, light attacks and zone attacks.

Lights can be parried, it's just not super reliable as lights are quick. Can't really speak to much about lights until we know the frame data.

Zone attacks, while quick, the specific characters that have them only attack from the same side, afaik. So keep guard on that side and react to the rest.

So, you're left with feints and feint attacks. Which is how I see most good players duel. It's feints and feint attacks all over the place IF they aren't turtling.

So therefore in my early assessment the meta is going to come down to this. Both players turtling. They're feeling each other out waiting for a mistake to be made. Player 1 gets impatient and throws out a feint. Player 2 doesn't take the bait. So Player 1 follows through with a feint attack.

Either Player 1 succeeds and does some damage. Or Player 2 blocks, and/or parries it and punishes him, or dodges and whiff punishes.

This is how I see the meta being played right now, in a general sense, and how I foresee the future of the meta playing out for awhile.
When I play, I play defensively but I make HARD reads. I do the most rewarding thing that I could in response to that read and I fucking do it. Shugoki looks sooooo good for that shit.
 

Tokiwartoothxdk

『T R I G G E R E D』
Campaign was pretty good, solid 8-9 hours. Beat it on hard. Last scene was kind of meh though. Ended up with over 8000 steel so i was able to recruit all the characters and still have plenty left over
 

Yojimzo

One of many Bat-Breakers.
When I play, I play defensively but I make HARD reads. I do the most rewarding thing that I could in response to that read and I fucking do it. Shugoki looks sooooo good for that shit.
Yeah, Shugoki's pretty much made for that. *knocking out a few dents in LB armor from being on the receiving end*
And pretty different from how I play, I do make play defensively, on the verge of turtling, and make hard reads, but I'm usually trying to get a good read on my opponents playstyle before I start commiting to anything.
 

Thefish

One Drink, Two Drink, Three Drink.. More.
My meta will involve shoving armor down peoples throats, as it has always been. Warlord? Armor. Shugoki? Armor. Lawbringer? Armor. These will be my trio and I will shove all the armor down all the throats.
I'm looking forward to seeing some good shugoki. I think it's kinda risky business man, someone throwing feints left right and centre will trigger you to use you armour on a reaction and you'll get blown up by a dodge or parry.
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
Yeah, Shugoki's pretty much made for that. *knocking out a few dents in LB armor from being on the receiving end*
And pretty different from how I play, I do make play defensively, on the verge of turtling, and make hard reads, but I'm usually trying to get a good read on my opponents playstyle before I start commiting to anything.
If my character allows it, I do crazy shit out of nowhere. I used to be a Bojutsu player so let that sink in lol.
 

Aramonde

Kombatant
So i boot up the game and still had a red NAT. I knew it would probably happen so i just started playing the story. Later my bro comes in and notices i have green bars, i look up and my NAT turned yellow!!! ITS A GIFT FROM THE GAMING GOD GUYS!!! In my first online match i made a guy ragequit. This is a start to something beautiful fellas :D
 
There's not a "giant" risk for feint attacks, correct. But there is a risk. In comparison what is the risk for turtling and playing reactionary?

Let me put it in another way. What would you do to stop me from turtling? Guard breaks have such a high frame window to tech that you can't just throw them out randomly. Can't heavy attack because of parries. Best option is feint attacks, lights, and random zone attacks. Obviously this is in general as the characters have different options.

So now you're limited to feints attacks, feints to bait, light attacks and zone attacks.

Lights can be parried, it's just not super reliable as lights are quick. Can't really speak to much about lights until we know the frame data.

Zone attacks, while quick, the specific characters that have them only attack from the same side, afaik. So keep guard on that side and react to the rest.

So, you're left with feints and feint attacks. Which is how I see most good players duel. It's feints and feint attacks all over the place IF they aren't turtling.

So therefore in my early assessment the meta is going to come down to this. Both players turtling. They're feeling each other out waiting for a mistake to be made. Player 1 gets impatient and throws out a feint. Player 2 doesn't take the bait. So Player 1 follows through with a feint attack.

Either Player 1 succeeds and does some damage. Or Player 2 blocks, and/or parries it and punishes him, or dodges and whiff punishes.

This is how I see the meta being played right now, in a general sense, and how I foresee the future of the meta playing out for awhile.
"In comparison what is the risk for turtling and playing reactionary?" getting baited and dying

"What would you do to stop me from turtling?"
easy id bait and apply pressure.
"Guard breaks have such a high frame window to tech that you can't just throw them out randomly."
Yes I know
"Can't heavy attack because of parries."
Wrong i can use heavy instead of a feint
"Best option is feint attacks, lights, and random zone attacks."
Again wrong there are plenty of other ways of baiting and attacking

"So now you're limited to feints attacks, feints to bait, light attacks and zone attacks."
Wrong but lets go with it

"Lights can be parried, it's just not super reliable as lights are quick. Can't really speak to much about lights until we know the frame data." some lights arent even reactable on block much less parryable. almost all lights you cant react parry.

"Zone attacks, while quick, the specific characters that have them only attack from the same side, afaik. So keep guard on that side and react to the rest."
Doesnt work if the opponent has a fast move that comes out on the other side.

"So therefore in my early assessment the meta is going to come down to this. Both players turtling. They're feeling each other out waiting for a mistake to be made. Player 1 gets impatient and throws out a feint. Player 2 doesn't take the bait. So Player 1 follows through with a feint attack."
(Of course this is assuming all you said above was correct which it is not)
Player 1 is not turtling when throw out a feint. feints are safe might as well go for another.

"Either Player 1 succeeds and does some damage. Or Player 2 blocks, and/or parries it and punishes him, or dodges and whiff punishes."
(assuming that player 1 has is too incompetent to go for more bait.)
You are not going to parry a feint attack you just arent unless the player is really bad. dodges and whiff punishes like every defensive measure can be baited.
 
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CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
"In comparison what is the risk for turtling and playing reactionary?" getting baited and dying

"What would you do to stop me from turtling?"
easy id bait and apply pressure.
"Guard breaks have such a high frame window to tech that you can't just throw them out randomly."
Yes I know
"Can't heavy attack because of parries."
Wrong i can use heavy instead of a feint
"Best option is feint attacks, lights, and random zone attacks."
Again wrong there are plenty of other ways of baiting and attacking

"So now you're limited to feints attacks, feints to bait, light attacks and zone attacks."
Wrong but lets go with it

"Lights can be parried, it's just not super reliable as lights are quick. Can't really speak to much about lights until we know the frame data." some lights arent even reactable on block much less parryable. almost all lights you cant react parry.

"Zone attacks, while quick, the specific characters that have them only attack from the same side, afaik. So keep guard on that side and react to the rest."
Doesnt work if the opponent has a fast move that comes out on the other side.

"So therefore in my early assessment the meta is going to come down to this. Both players turtling. They're feeling each other out waiting for a mistake to be made. Player 1 gets impatient and throws out a feint. Player 2 doesn't take the bait. So Player 1 follows through with a feint attack."
(Of course this is assuming all you said above was correct which it is not)
Player 1 is not turtling when throw out a feint. feints are safe might as well go for another.

"Either Player 1 succeeds and does some damage. Or Player 2 blocks, and/or parries it and punishes him, or dodges and whiff punishes."
(assuming that player 1 has is too incompetent to go for more bait.)
You are not going to parry a feint attack you just arent unless the player is really bad. dodges and whiff punishes like every defensive measure can be baited.
Okay I completely hear you, baiting can be effective at opening people ul for sure and we have plenty of ways to do it. However! Just because bait exists doesn't mean you need to take it. Now that's not me saying "Just do nothing and win"what I'm saying is that opening up someone's defense is harder than just "Imma bait em" some baits can absolutely be reacted to (barring a couple of characters, I'm fucking looking at you Warlord) so while baiting is 100% a viable way to apply pressure/open up your opponent safely, it is not this end all be all that it seems lime you're making it out to be (I'm assuming, if I'm wrong feel free to tell me) I'm of the opinion that this game has equal rewards for good offense and good defense. I believe I already said that awhile back in the thread. However I am also of the opinion that offensive play is a lot more difficult to execute against good players due to how slow a lot of hits are. I already broke down archtypes further back and how some characters have easier time with offense than others so instead I'm going to talk about the newcomers (specifically Shugoki and Lawbringer since those are the ones im more familiar with and they're a bit less straight forward than Valkyrie who might be the biggest potato this game has to offer) first! Shugoki. He is our more defensive character of the two here. He's slow, super reactable, death on whiff for a lot of moves. HOWEVER, he opens people up by either baiting (like you said) or armoring through shit. He is one of the most defensive characters in this game right now imo. You wont be applying pressure while your opponent is blocking, simple as that. NEXT we have Lawbringer who I believe is not only being slept on but he might actually stupid good, but there's one thing holding him back but we'll get to that. Lawbringer is CLEARLY supposed to be in your face, grabbing you pushing you around and just making your day bad. He has one tool that is make or break for the character, his push. EVERYTHING this man does for pressure stems from that terrifying push. The catch? T-rex arms for days. But! He is an offensive character in this game that has EXCELLENT defensive options. Which means he can ALSO be played defensively, which is where the point im trying to make comes into play. Defensive characters in this game (im talking about the Wardens, the Shugokis, the Conquerors, the Kenseis etc etc) don't have much room to play offensively, so you're rarely gonna see them do that because why would they when their defensive tools are just better than their offensive tools. However! This game has great defensive tools universally! That means not only are the defense guys playing defense but the offense guys can play great defense as well! Prime example, fucking Orochi (i hate this character excuse my profanity) you have extremely quick buttons, good mixups, great damage. Just all in all a very solid offensive character. HOWEVER this character also has one of the best defensive tools ever which is his/her dodge attacks which become mixups BY THEMSELVES. So you have Orochi using his offensive tools in tandem with the defensive ones but it simply looks like they're being PURELY defensive which just isn't the case. You can't play them purely defensively (them being assassins) it's not in their hardware, it does not compute. Hope that didn't get too rambly and hope i added to the conversation
 
Okay I completely hear you, baiting can be effective at opening people ul for sure and we have plenty of ways to do it. However! Just because bait exists doesn't mean you need to take it. Now that's not me saying "Just do nothing and win"what I'm saying is that opening up someone's defense is harder than just "Imma bait em" some baits can absolutely be reacted to (barring a couple of characters, I'm fucking looking at you Warlord) so while baiting is 100% a viable way to apply pressure/open up your opponent safely, it is not this end all be all that it seems lime you're making it out to be (I'm assuming, if I'm wrong feel free to tell me) I'm of the opinion that this game has equal rewards for good offense and good defense. I believe I already said that awhile back in the thread. However I am also of the opinion that offensive play is a lot more difficult to execute against good players due to how slow a lot of hits are. I already broke down archtypes further back and how some characters have easier time with offense than others so instead I'm going to talk about the newcomers (specifically Shugoki and Lawbringer since those are the ones im more familiar with and they're a bit less straight forward than Valkyrie who might be the biggest potato this game has to offer) first! Shugoki. He is our more defensive character of the two here. He's slow, super reactable, death on whiff for a lot of moves. HOWEVER, he opens people up by either baiting (like you said) or armoring through shit. He is one of the most defensive characters in this game right now imo. You wont be applying pressure while your opponent is blocking, simple as that. NEXT we have Lawbringer who I believe is not only being slept on but he might actually stupid good, but there's one thing holding him back but we'll get to that. Lawbringer is CLEARLY supposed to be in your face, grabbing you pushing you around and just making your day bad. He has one tool that is make or break for the character, his push. EVERYTHING this man does for pressure stems from that terrifying push. The catch? T-rex arms for days. But! He is an offensive character in this game that has EXCELLENT defensive options. Which means he can ALSO be played defensively, which is where the point im trying to make comes into play. Defensive characters in this game (im talking about the Wardens, the Shugokis, the Conquerors, the Kenseis etc etc) don't have much room to play offensively, so you're rarely gonna see them do that because why would they when their defensive tools are just better than their offensive tools. However! This game has great defensive tools universally! That means not only are the defense guys playing defense but the offense guys can play great defense as well! Prime example, fucking Orochi (i hate this character excuse my profanity) you have extremely quick buttons, good mixups, great damage. Just all in all a very solid offensive character. HOWEVER this character also has one of the best defensive tools ever which is his/her dodge attacks which become mixups BY THEMSELVES. So you have Orochi using his offensive tools in tandem with the defensive ones but it simply looks like they're being PURELY defensive which just isn't the case. You can't play them purely defensively (them being assassins) it's not in their hardware, it does not compute. Hope that didn't get too rambly and hope i added to the conversation
I disagree with lawbringer being offensive. I think he is by far the most defensive character. I havent played him fully but it seems he gets nothing after the push on hit and his string all are terrible on block. I also disagree with shugokis being defensive. He is all about starting offense and it doesnt matter if he whiffs. Also, warden is a great offensive presence. But overall I kind of agree with you. You arent going to be the best turtling and you arent going to be the best spamming the attack button there is a nice balance.
 
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Tokiwartoothxdk

『T R I G G E R E D』
during the beta i found games extremely quickly and every had green connection for the most part. so far ive tried to get into 15 matches, 12 of those i couldn't connect to and 3 of those i disconnected soon after joining, it also tells me everyone is cycleing them between yellow and red. i guess ill try more in the morning
 
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Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
"In comparison what is the risk for turtling and playing reactionary?" getting baited and dying

"What would you do to stop me from turtling?"
easy id bait and apply pressure.
Bait me from turtling? That doesn't make any sense.


"Guard breaks have such a high frame window to tech that you can't just throw them out randomly."
Yes I know
"Can't heavy attack because of parries."
Wrong i can use heavy instead of a feint
Then you're getting parried and punished.


"Best option is feint attacks, lights, and random zone attacks."
Again wrong there are plenty of other ways of baiting and attacking
Sure, thats why I said "best option".

now you're limited to feints attacks, feints to bait, light attacks and zone attacks."
Wrong but lets go with it

"Lights can be parried, it's just not super reliable as lights are quick. Can't really speak to much about lights until we know the frame data." some lights arent even reactable on block much less parryable. almost all lights you cant react parry.
Sure you can. I've reacted parry lights many times and so have many many other players. It isn't easy but it's certainly possible. Will know more once we get the frame data.

"Zone attacks, while quick, the specific characters that have them only attack from the same side, afaik. So keep guard on that side and react to the rest."
Doesnt work if the opponent has a fast move that comes out on the other side.
Yes it does. You react to it. So are you suggesting you can't even react BLOCK light attacks? Do you smoke reefer before you play or something? lul

therefore in my early assessment the meta is going to come down to this. Both players turtling. They're feeling each other out waiting for a mistake to be made. Player 1 gets impatient and throws out a feint. Player 2 doesn't take the bait. So Player 1 follows through with a feint attack."
(Of course this is assuming all you said above was correct which it is not)
Player 1 is not turtling when throw out a feint. feints are safe might as well go for another.
Player 1 WAS turtling. Didn't think I had to literally walk you through it step by step by step. They both were turtling, THEN the player 1 decides not to turtle and tries a feint. C'mon now, when you say stuff like this it's hard to argue against people saying you're trolling.

Either Player 1 succeeds and does some damage. Or Player 2 blocks, and/or parries it and punishes him, or dodges and whiff punishes."
(assuming that player 1 has is too incompetent to go for more bait.)
You are not going to parry a feint attack you just arent unless the player is really bad. dodges and whiff punishes like every defensive measure can be baited.
Again, doesn't make any sense. You can parry a feint attack, regardless of the players skill using the feint attack. It's not easy, sure, but I never said it was. Simply feinting against a player who is turtling accomplishes what exactly? You're just gonna keep feinting and wasting stamina for no reason? Ok go nuts, lul. And you don't whiff punish an attack that hasn't happened, aka a feint.
 

Thefish

One Drink, Two Drink, Three Drink.. More.
I swear in the open beta you could only attack from one side if you followed up kensei's swift strike with a chain? At the moment you can change directions to follow up.