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Match-up Discussion Flash Matchup Discussion

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
how do you know someone isn't already playing flash with good footsies and all the stuff you are saying? i would play you but i believe we are region locked, and online wouldn't do our match any justice. i know exactly how to play the flash, I've gotten help from tom brady, crazy domincan, dragon god, ect ect from ect 5 and next level, vsm. my point is this character is 1) at the core of this game not a top 10 character, yet. 2) the required footsies requires a LOT of knowledge about every single character in the game, that means that a great flash player need this game to be steady so he can learn the MU, get in depth on the other characters options and find ways to get past them or take advantage of them. this character is the opposite of braindead and has to work very hard in a lot of MU. you can't just pick him up like GL or superman and just control the pace of the game against 75% of the cast. there is almost no MU in this game where the flash controls the pace unless he has a sizeable life lead where zoning isn't doing much. only against bane, lobo, shazam, maybe grundy can the flash dictate the pace. with backdash in this game as well as push block which NO ONE uses properly, smart zoning and the flashes footies tools being 15 frames and slower, its hard for the character to get in. the trade off is one wiff punish, one mix up with trait leads to 60% bnb's. but its like cyrax, don't get hit. how many tournaments did cyrax win?
I'm talking to the downplayers. Flash will be a pretty good character when people figure him out, not being able to dictate the pace of the match is not everything. I keep seeing new tech and flash is slowly becoming more and more able to control space, flash is a character that's supposed to threaten your movement and punish for huge damage in order to make up for his poor options outside of jump range. Noone is playing flash at a high lvl right now because he's extremely unexplored, despite all your findings, has huge potential and is a very technical character, I agree that you can't pick him up, I tend to pickup characters every few days in NRS games and play them at a decent lvl at the start, I realised this wasn't so with the flash. I do think he has HUGE potential though, just needs the right players and the right attitude.

Considering I mained SZ in MK9 I know a thing or two about chars who can't dictate the pace of the match.

Add me on XBL: Qwark28
 

Zyphox

What is going on guys, Ya Boi Zyphox here.
I'm talking to the downplayers. Flash will be a pretty good character when people figure him out, not being able to dictate the pace of the match is not everything. I keep seeing new tech and flash is slowly becoming more and more able to control space, flash is a character that's supposed to threaten your movement and punish for huge damage in order to make up for his poor options outside of jump range. Noone is playing flash at a high lvl right now because he's extremely unexplored, despite all your findings, has huge potential and is a very technical character, I agree that you can't pick him up, I tend to pickup characters every few days in NRS games and play them at a decent lvl at the start, I realised this wasn't so with the flash. I do think he has HUGE potential though, just needs the right players and the right attitude.

Considering I mained SZ in MK9 I know a thing or two about chars who can't dictate the pace of the match.

Add me on XBL: Qwark28
ok i'll add you, hopefully we will be able to play.
 

SaJa

FH_FenriR
since when did flash need execution? footsies are REQUIRED by all pure rushdown characters, look at cage in mk9.

f21 is duckable, sure, but what stops you from using f2? you cant compare flash to just superman, compare him to doomsday, grundy, aquaman etc. there are very few 3 7 matchups for flash, this community has forgotten that 4-6 is almost nothing and people only focus on "my character loses"

the flash has great tools, he just requires patience and exploration

Compared Flash to Aquaman, Grundy, Doomsday ? Lol.

We don't need 9 months to figure out what char are good or not. Kunglao and Kabal have been dominant from the beginning to the end of mk9. Ermac just disepared as long as floe stopped the game. Scorpion was better than Kano but not tournament viable, same story for the Flash so stop pushing our arguments to an extremity to give you reason.
We know Flash weaknesses and strenght, but dude, seriously, a great footsy Flash will get rapped by a decent footsy BA or batgirl.

And I don't understand people saying this :

when someone with good fundamentals picks up and breaks down this character you'll all be ashamed. this character requires excelent footsies and still has ALOT of tech to be found. he may not be top tier but dont act like youre playing kano without hands.
So you gotta know that some great players already play the flash (dizzy, cdjr etc) they just think this char is garbage for tournaments so they prefer picking up a more viable character such as aquaman or superman.
I'm not downplaying the flash, never, I'm just saying what it is. Flash is mk9 Scorpion tier.

JC can play footsy, yes, he still have the best chip string, jail and dash in his game, Flash have one of the worse jump/dash and does no jail, no priority at all (with a shit reach), and no chip on block unless he uses a risky special. Godlike for a rushdown character.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Compared Flash to Aquaman, Grundy, Doomsday ? Lol.

We don't need 9 months to figure out what char are good or not. Kunglao and Kabal have been dominant from the beginning to the end of mk9. Ermac just disepared as long as floe stopped the game. Scorpion was better than Kano but not tournament viable, same story for the Flash so stop pushing our arguments to an extremity to give you reason.
We know Flash weaknesses and strenght, but dude, seriously, a great footsy Flash will get rapped by a decent footsy BA or batgirl.

And I don't understand people saying this :



So you gotta know that some great players already play the flash (dizzy, cdjr etc) they just think this char is garbage for tournaments so they prefer picking up a more viable character such as aquaman or superman.
I'm not downplaying the flash, never, I'm just saying what it is. Flash is mk9 Scorpion tier.

JC can play footsy, yes, he still have the best chip string, jail and dash in his game, Flash have one of the worse jump/dash and does no jail, no priority at all (with a shit reach), and no chip on block unless he uses a risky special. Godlike for a rushdown character.
Because you know the BA and batgirl matchup inside out, right? Ermac dissapeared because noone wanted to play him, it took 1 greek player to discover everything he has, otherwise ermac would be considered D tier.

So cdjr and dizzy play the character? Only means they don't spend that much time on the character, I know cdjr never posts any tech here, dizzy himself said that flash will take a long time to be discovered and understood, I don't get how you can categorise him so fast as if you've jumped a year forward...

I'm saying JC required footsies, I didn't say anything about chip, jailing or dashing. Flash has equally good tools. The fact that you have a punishable special designed to let you in which is not fuzzy guardable after you block the first one means your opponent will be ducking more than usual in order to bait it and punish it. A good flash will use that hesitation to scare the opponent and close the distance, a flash who doesn't know how to use it will just complain about it.

No, 60%, time slowdown, 3/4 screen projectile punishes, oki setups, spacing setups, safe 50/50s and excelent wallcarry are godlike.

B22 shit reach? lmao.

Tom brady was right saying this char isn't as shit people make him out to be. He just requires thought.
 
Although it has already been addressed, yes I meant neutral game LK cancels. I don't think I said to use it on hit or block strings. It is a valuable tool to force people to get to you because you can dodge and meter build similar to 3s type of passive pressure. As far as a great player playing Flash etc. and whether or not he is tourny viable. and the constant debate of tiers. A lot of this does not matter. There will always be characters that require less effort for good results at the start of a game and other characters that need development and other characters that end up being complete crap. But, until someone goes full throttle learning a character to its maximum extent, you will never know the learning curve of a character. So you have two options. 1. Get to work and stick with Flash for better or worse. 2. Quit Flash and use another character you think you can do best with. For me at this very moment, I think the Flash is my best chance to win any rounds in tournaments or against high profile players.

Problem is games don't live long enough anymore for the truly great things to be discovered in a fighting game. I mean ST took forever for all the matchup numbers to stabilize and yet still Komoda blanka can still demolish people.
 

SaJa

FH_FenriR
Because you know the BA and batgirl matchup inside out, right?
Yes I play BA, Lobo, Batgirl, Flash, Sinestro and Aquaman. (mainly flash, BA and batgirl).

Ermac dissapeared because noone wanted to play him, it took 1 greek player to discover everything he has, otherwise ermac would be considered D tier.
Metzos wasn't at Big D level with Ermac imo. But nevermind. I believe what I see and I've not seen as much ermac as Kabal/Cyrax/Kunglao in high level tournaments. And to answer to your quote, do you think that made Ermac A+ tier ?..

So cdjr and dizzy play the character? Only means they don't spend that much time on the character, I know cdjr never posts any tech here, dizzy himself said that flash will take a long time to be discovered and understood, I don't get how you can categorise him so fast as if you've jumped a year forward...
Dude just ask yourself why top 10 is overused and why no one play shit tier in major. One day, you guys using such argument have to figure out why people (and I'm not talking about casuals) don't spend that much time on bottom characters.. Also, I'm agree with Dizzy, a tier list may change with what we discovered but it won't change that much, unless a patch is changing shits.

I'm saying JC required footsies, I didn't say anything about chip, jailing or dashing.
Yes, that's why I did. Talking about one single thing, and comparing mk9 char with injustice to generalize the metagame of a char is useless. Trust me, Flash has nothing to do with JC, not more than Lobo or Bane.
Obviously we gotta play footsy, and that's what every char of this game need to do anyway (and I guess in every fighting game). No more, no less. Thx for helping us. x)

No, 60%, time slowdown (BA can do 55% with a 8sec more usefull trait), 3/4 screen projectile punishes (try to punish a deathstroke gun fire in midscreen with the charge, and watch what will happen, it's punishable on paper, not in real game unless he doesn't block), oki setups, spacing setups, safe 50/50s and excelent wallcarry are godlike.
Ok, this :

I wouldn't say bad but he has holes in his gameplay. His overhead string f21 can be ducked and punished on block, his EX LC can be ducked and punished on block, b22f3 sometimes whiff on crouch block, seeing any patterns yet? Crouching really does hurt this character and all of his "mids" whiff at one time or another and will get punished if the player knows the matchup. I'm not saying he's bottom 5 but if they fixed his mid hitting strings he would be sooooo much better.
He just forgot to talk about chip, wagger, and pushblock.

B22 shit reach? lmao.
b2, 2 is one of the best string of the game. The fact is that b2, 2, or b2, 2, f3 can rdm whiff against crouching opponents. It's also 15 frame startup, so you won't punish shit properly with that string after using a smart backdash.

Tom brady was right saying this char isn't as shit people make him out to be. He just requires thought.
Maybe, but until now, it's actually the Flash players who the most downplayed their own main and that you call "scrubs" who are exploring Flash deeper than anyone else. Just remember that, they aren't downplaying their char for good or bad results, but simply because at high level, if you know the matchup, Flash won't be as good as the other 20 characters. They are maybe downplaying him, but at least they love their char and keep working on him and you gotta respect that.
Other people coming here and throwing tomatoes on them just because they aren't agree won't help.
If you think Flash can be top 10 using unexplored strategies, what I'll be glad with, so come and prove us wrong (no irony here). ;)

Until then, the kommunauty and what we see in major seem to confirm what some good flash players are saying for ages. Overacting/underacting is nothing without facts.
 

BCE

Noob
hello guys, i just started to play injustice online today, lvl 67 just playing offline, lol.

can somebody help me with batman matchup, its some lag or batman air 2 is super positive ? i cant do anything, he just land, do 223, and jump crossup to another air 2 and im still locked in hit stun, like what ? i have to backdash all the time, but i cant punish at all
 
I have been trying to expand more into Flash strategy. So after a great session with some locals, I've found I really really like Watchtower for Flash. Leftside gives a great addition to corner pressure. The floating throws that come from right side can be thrown by Flash and since we can speed dodge it is really a great boon to us especially since Flash is great at dictating what side he is on. Also thanks to Psycho the rightside grab at the console is a great corner tool too. Try the stage out and tell me what you think guys. I def avoid asylum too since I feel Flash is at a large disadvantage there.
 

GamerBlake90

Blue Blurs for Life!
Guys, Zyphox is currently gone from here for two weeks and cannot bring his video here, so I am placing it here on his behalf. Zyphox seems to have arrived at the conclusion that Batman is severely disadvantaged against the Flash at 3-7, and has gone out of his way producing a large video to cover the specifics of this match-up. Please feel free to leave your comments.

If you prefer for this discussion to have its own thread, inform me and I'll make it happen.


Perfect Legend
@REO
FOREVER KING
CURBOLICOUS
UsedForGlue
RapZiLLa54
LEGEND
DGOD PSYCHO
Hellion_96
SaJa
Xenrail
AK Pig Of The Hut
 

SaJa

FH_FenriR
Most of batman will zone against Flash until they get their trait to go in and as soon as they can, they'll go back to fullscreen until his trait is coming back. That's why to me this mu is still 6-4 for Batman, because he kills the flash at long distance, and he will go in only with his safe trait to try to combo you.
 

Xenrail

Noob
won't have a chance to watch the video until after work, but off the top of my head i will list an obvious.

he needs to play better batmans. why?

+batman has a great mixup game (j2, b11, slide - i've only seen one bats use this online and he was good)
+batman's gets free jump in's on the flash with no real answer from the flash
+after a life lead, bats has a significant advantage with batarangs and covering windows with his traits
+batman's parry can counter every single one of flash's specials. once he starts using it then flash has to respect it. and start trying to 50/50 with jump ins or lows

i'll list more when i get home.

i've posted the match up as a 5-5 bc i feel like batman has the tools to counter certain situations.
 

RapZiLLa54

Monster Island Tournaments
Guys, Zyphox is currently gone from here for two weeks and cannot bring his video here, so I am placing it here on his behalf. Zyphox seems to have arrived at the conclusion that Batman is severely disadvantaged against the Flash at 3-7, and has gone out of his way producing a large video to cover the specifics of this match-up. Please feel free to leave your comments.

If you prefer for this discussion to have its own thread, inform me and I'll make it happen.


Perfect Legend
@REO
FOREVER KING
CURBOLICOUS
UsedForGlue
RapZiLLa54
LEGEND
DGOD PSYCHO
Hellion_96
SaJa
Xenrail
AK Pig Of The Hut
The focus of this video seems to be that Batmans wake up sucks which everyone knows. Batmans best wake up is usually reading a jump in and dashing forward, back dashing and the obvious blocking. He doesn't win games because of Slide and Parry.

Flash is a monster up close but getting in on Batman when you have no projectile is no easy task. Not to mention we can parry his lightning charge on reaction from a good distance. Best tactics in this match are scatter bombs, bats and up batarang. If you jump you die, up batarang MB for full combo and we start the "get in" game all over again with ending in b23. If you dash in or lightning charge an up batarang we release bats into grapple and start over from 3/4s screen, again.

Bat rotation is a must in this matchup and its much more difficult for Flash to get in rather than Flash just being in Batmans face 24/7 like his zoning sucks. Can't say I agree with this at all.
 

Hiltzy85

I'm THAT fast
Something I think is worth mentioning that wasn't really in the video is that Flash can d1d2 batman during some of his strings with crouchable highs, which limits the things that batman can do after having a j2 blocked. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but blocked j2 that isn't chained into a string is actually negative, and if Flash blocks it and then crouches, what can batman really do? b23 or f23 or something?

If Flash is super-duper on point, I'm pretty sure that he can d1d2 combo punish 113, 123, 223 and maybe b113. Sure, it's probably hard to do, but so is doing just-frame OTGs, and if us Flash players want to really make the most of our characters, we need to be able to at least semi-consistently smoke batman for trying to do high combo starters after a not so well-timed j2
 

DGOD PSYCHO

#YOLOSWAGMUFFIN
won't have a chance to watch the video until after work, but off the top of my head i will list an obvious.

he needs to play better batmans. why?

+batman has a great mixup game (j2, b11, slide - i've only seen one bats use this online and he was good)
+batman's gets free jump in's on the flash with no real answer from the flash
+after a life lead, bats has a significant advantage with batarangs and covering windows with his traits
+batman's parry can counter every single one of flash's specials. once he starts using it then flash has to respect it. and start trying to 50/50 with jump ins or lows

i'll list more when i get home.

i've posted the match up as a 5-5 bc i feel like batman has the tools to counter certain situations.
Once you don''t let batman have it his way,
Flash shits on batman its not even funny. Stop saying this non sense about "play better batmans" or this crap.. I'm defending Zyphox here. You talked about +after a life lead???? Bruh................ When flash gets a life lead....???
When Flash hits 61%'s...???
When flash push blocks everything the bat does.....
When flash does sonic pounds right over his batarangs and punishes him....????
match up is totally different.

parry? and slide.
okay zyphox i wanna put my input on his wake up situations.
If you nuetral jump, Batman can't hit you and you can punish him regardless, I won't even explain that.
If he starts back dashing, then make him start back dashing. B22 punish on wake up...

P.S zyphox..... Forever king couldn't touch my flash.. I whole heartedly agree with you.
 

RapZiLLa54

Monster Island Tournaments
Something I think is worth mentioning that wasn't really in the video is that Flash can d1d2 batman during some of his strings with crouchable highs, which limits the things that batman can do after having a j2 blocked. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but blocked j2 that isn't chained into a string is actually negative, and if Flash blocks it and then crouches, what can batman really do? b23 or f23 or something?

If Flash is super-duper on point, I'm pretty sure that he can d1d2 combo punish 113, 123, 223 and maybe b113. Sure, it's probably hard to do, but so is doing just-frame OTGs, and if us Flash players want to really make the most of our characters, we need to be able to at least semi-consistently smoke batman for trying to do high combo starters after a not so well-timed j2

Batman can j2 into 123 so unless you want to get full comboed I would recommend NEVER trying to d1d2 after a jump 1 or 2 attack.
 

RapZiLLa54

Monster Island Tournaments
Once you don''t let batman have it his way,
Flash shits on batman its not even funny. Stop saying this non sense about "play better batmans" or this crap.. I'm defending Zyphox here. You talked about +after a life lead???? Bruh................ When flash gets a life lead....???
When Flash hits 61%'s...???
When flash push blocks everything the bat does.....
When flash does sonic pounds right over his batarangs and punishes him....????
match up is totally different.
Oh okay so Flash can keep Batman out with push blocking but Batman can't pushblock when Flash FINALLY gets in? And make him work yet again? Really? Yes Flash has the best damage in the game no question but some of your "strats" vs Batman based on this post is insane.

Sonic Pounds over a batarang? How many Batman players you run into that throw straight batarangs from sweep distance? Or even if by some chance they were to do that they can easily MB it and block instantly. Throwing straight batarangs in this matchup is almost pointless unless they are 3/4s or further away.
 

DRE

(--o--)
Guys, Zyphox is currently gone from here for two weeks and cannot bring his video here, so I am placing it here on his behalf. Zyphox seems to have arrived at the conclusion that Batman is severely disadvantaged against the Flash at 3-7, and has gone out of his way producing a large video to cover the specifics of this match-up. Please feel free to leave your comments.

If you prefer for this discussion to have its own thread, inform me and I'll make it happen.

I tested that b22f3 far sonic pound setup against all characters.

First of all, Batman doesn't actually have to block far sonic pound as a crossup in that string. If he simply holds back, it will not hit even though Flash lands on the other side. The same thing applies to most other characters in the game except for Joker who actually has to block the opposite way in that situation. Against Deathstroke, Superman, Black Adam, Lex, Grundy, Doomsday and Bane, b22f3(blocked) into far sonic pound always lands on the front side. In the corner it crosses everyone up.

Just go into training mode and try it for yourself guys. Turn on "always block" and to b22f3 into far sonic pound midscreen. If the character doesn't turn around, it's not a real crossup.
 

LEGEND

YES!
there is no way in hell Flash 7-3s Batman just because he can abuse his shitty wake-up game (like EVERYONE can)

Like Rapzilla said, You probably need to play better Batmen, and do so offline
 

DRE

(--o--)
These setups are under the assumption that
there is no way in hell Flash 7-3s Batman just because he can abuse his shitty wake-up game (like EVERYONE can)

Like Rapzilla said, You probably need to play better Batmen, and do so offline
These setups are under the assumption that the Batman lets Flash in to begin with. If Batman is sitting full screen throwing batarangs backed up by his trait, there's not much Flash can do but wait until the trait cool down period. Batman controls the entire pace of this match because his trait recharges so fast and he jumps in on Flash for free just like everyone else.
 

LEGEND

YES!
These setups are under the assumption that

These setups are under the assumption that the Batman lets Flash in to begin with. If Batman is sitting full screen throwing batarangs backed up by his trait, there's not much Flash can do but wait until the trait cool down period. Batman controls the entire pace of this match because his trait recharges so fast and he jumps in on Flash for free just like everyone else.
i agree with the points you made, but you exaggerate some things

"jumping in for free" is something that works on people that don't yet understand how the anti air game works. And yes getting in on Batman is alittle annoying. But its only a matter of time until Flash gets in his sweet spot, and because of Speed Dodge he won't be eating as much chip from batarangs while trying to get in

all in all i currently think this MU is 5-5, Possibly 6-4 Flash. . . possibly
 

DRE

(--o--)
i agree with the points you made, but you exaggerate some things

"jumping in for free" is something that works on people that don't yet understand how the anti air game works. And yes getting in on Batman is alittle annoying. But its only a matter of time until Flash gets in his sweet spot, and because of Speed Dodge he won't be eating as much chip from batarangs while trying to get in

all in all i currently think this MU is 5-5, Possibly 6-4 Flash. . . possibly
I think that once Flash gets the hard knockdown it's heavily in his favor because Batman's wakeup attacks are terrible, but how exactly is Flash supposed to anti-air Batman's jump 2 aside from maybe backdashing? Flash's anti-air is terrible unless you activate trait. I guess he has to activate trait every time batman jumps, which may or may not always work out. Also, is everyone forgetting about Batman's double jump anti-anti-air nonsense?
 

Kiko

Face it, you're done.
When you guys say "flash can take advantage of Batman's wake up options just like everyone else,"

You're not taking into account at all that flash is sick up close, has amaZingggg damage, and has awesome 50/50s which essentially means that Flash can keep a batman player guessing for a while they try to regain their footing.

And that's not even counting the standard 54% Combo off one touch with flash.




I personally think a great flash can beat a great batman. Learning to counter poke those holes and punish for extreme Damage makes me believe this MU does fall heavily into flash's favor.
 
Tell Zyphox good explanation of general Flash pressure. Also, I am starting to feel the same way about Black Adam once you have him down you can react his wake up after practicing it for 2 hours.
 
Reactions: DRE

DRE

(--o--)
Once you knock black adam down with something like sonic pound, you can just dash up and immediately neutral jump his lightning cage, land and punish with d12.