Breakthrough - Kano FINALLY, The Kano Community Speaks Up. Save Kano's Relevance With Needed Fixes And Reasonable Buffs

[Youphemism]

That's week 1 stuff, and I feel they could've already moved on to applications if the cyber mains weren't busy bitching about how bad he was. It's embarrassing.

I'm all for goofball things like 112 completely whiffing and the two hits of upball not hitting, but the other ones I'm not even sure why they are being suggested. The more frames on EN knife, for example; what does that serve? It neither buffs his offensive game nor strengthens his defensive game, so what the hell is the point? Why not boost his offense by making knives 8%? Why not improve his defense by making EN laser blast a mid? Commando is worse still, since Kano has a bunch of tick options and because they aren't EB good he needs more. Silly. He just got a safe special to cancel into, which is huge, but no one's exploring it, they just want more buffs. The EN knives idea is dumb too; lazy buffs to an offense that is already okay.

I feel like Cutthroat is already a solid competitor that can do insane damage to end a round, yet everyone is clamoring for buffs and ignoring it because they're too busy chucking knives and getting pissy when that's not the end all. Play around, go to big tournaments, win or lose, but just don't bs out a list and blame all your problems out on Kano. We're all bad, we need to get better and you guys can do better.

Tl;dr: Get up off your damn knees and start using the character less one dimensionally. Play with all the variations and stop suggesting whack buffs that aren't going to solve anything.

The majority of them, don't generalize us based on the pessimists' opinions.

Noone cares about Cutthroat because it's his best variation since it as you say has good damage and also has neutral or plus overhead/low mixups that lead to this good damage. The only buffs anyone asks for in that variation is slightly more range on B1 since he's retreating and it can be hard to land after things like DB1 on hit like in the video. Noone is blaming their losses on Kano, the rest of them just want a top tier character whereas I'm one of the only people saying Kano is fine.

It Agree.. It's just annoyin how wrong you and youphmis were, yet just act like you were on board the whole time

Yeah we were so wrong about him being mid tier, great quoting and logic you're presenting with your arguments as per usual. Continue not going to tournaments though You can call me a bad player all you want (although you can't prove it) but you've never placed in any MKX tournament you've entered so there's no reason for anyone to listen to you lmao.

 

[Rip Torn]

that's what kano needs, doesn't need a popup starter, just an overhead
Jason's overhead is fine, he is my alt btw
Jason is a prime example of why there is no excuse of Kano not having an OH
he at least has one right? kano has at least... none?

Yes, Jason's overhead is fine. It's fine because it's super slow and not a combo starter.

Jason also doesn't have a projectile or any kind of air mobility like Kano's grappler variation. Does that mean Jason needs to get buffed in those areas as well?

 

[SaltShaker]

Everyone remembers the Kenshi forum Week 1. Clamoring he was amazing, all this "easily Top 10" talk, tech that was supposedly almost impossible to stop, etc. Mind you it came from great players. Then they all realized he sucked and the threads went from happy harmony to a multitude of complaints and grief from the majority of the community, from the bottom all the way up to their best player. There were a select few saying he isn't that bad, but the majority thought he either need some help or was very bad. End result? Kenshi buffed to become viable.

Now I agree with this because Kenshi did suck imo, but how is Kano any different than this scenario? Why is Kano "too good" to be slightly buffed? Is it because we don't have a well respected enough rep to make the same comments I made? Is it because Week 1 he had a prepatch abusable move when people actually used him that's long gone? Is it because Kano getting these buffs and still not becoming a Top Ten character is too unreasonable? Has anyone actually said why Kano needs nothing or how he is better than anyone in the Top 15? I have a hard time placing him Top 20 at this point unless it's 20th. 19th at best. Those who think Kano is good on June 27th 2015 ask yourselves, who is Kano better than? Goro? Reptile? A couple of other bums. Then who else? This isn't mid April. Kano wins by outplaying your opponent while using tools inferior to theirs in most MU's. Nothing more, nothing less.

The community the first few weeks were like the ideal community, happy and in harmony with like any having a few exceptions, but as the game developed and we broke down the characters flaws, limitations became more and more apparent. Especially when compared to other characters in the cast. Now, just as the Kenshi forum, our ideal harmonic community has turned into anger, disappointment, envy, and outright disgust leading to many players dropping him, alt'ing him, or using him in "casuals" but bringing out a Top 15 for real matches. Even I have done so. You know what I do when I play at my locals now? Pyro Tanya. You know what I do when playing for fun? Cyber and Cutt Kano. I can't deal with this character anymore in his current state regardless of how much I enjoy him. There's like 8% of the original harmonic happy community from the month of April/early May that still main's him. If 8%. Just like all those Erron Black, Sonya, Ermac, and Shinnok main's dropping them Top 15 characters left n right, right?

If that isn't a sign of a character not being as good as originally expected and needing help I dunno what is.

 

[LOCO]

Yes, Jason's overhead is fine. It's fine because it's super slow and not a combo starter.

Jason also doesn't have a projectile or any kind of air mobility like Kano's grappler variation. Does that mean Jason needs to get buffed in those areas as well?

its used as a mixup
he's in much better shape than kano

its safe on block, and it has excessive reach, its not super slow either
if u want to speak about jason we can talk about it on jason forums o through pm
but his OH is fine

 

[ando1184]

Kotal has a non-string overhead that gives a knockdown as well

Which is his slow ass b2, on top of that he has 212 and b122 which both end in overheads. B122 can be fully combo'd into but only in the corner, so yeh he still has more tools in that regard lol. Universal tools across all variations at that. It's funny how the majority of the cast that do have these things, have them in ALL variations but for Kano to have it in only "1" variation is blasphemy.....

Edit: whoops, I just caught that you were focusing on the "no string" overhead talk. My bad lol

Edit2: imo b31 or b312, the 2nd or 3rd hit should have been OH because it "visually" would have made sense. I never mentioned it though because I know how 2 dimentional this community can get. If that did change though, I'd prefer the 1 be the OH in that string

 

[Rip Torn]

its used as a mixup
he's in much better shape than kano

its safe on block, and it has excessive reach, its not super slow either
if u want to speak about jason we can talk about it on jason forums o through pm
but his OH is fine

Kano players brought up Jason and there was some slight misinformation being tossed around.

Also, Jason was pretty bad before he got his fixes in this last patch. The Jason community didn't ask for any buffs, just fixes, and we were very pleased to get just that. I see too much of "Since X player has this, Kano should have it. Since Y player has this, Kano should have it." You can't cherry pick things from all the characters in the game and ask for Kano to have it. That's a little unreasonable.

 

[ando1184]

Kano players brought up Jason and there was some slight misinformation being tossed around.

Also, Jason was pretty bad before he got his fixes in this last patch. The Jason community didn't ask for any buffs, just fixes, and we were very pleased to get just that. I see too much of "Since X player has this, Kano should have it. Since Y player has this, Kano should have it." You can't cherry pick things from all the characters in the game and ask for Kano to have it. That's a little unreasonable.

The initial argument is directed primarily at the fixes. The buffs suggestion is more along the lines of us asking; in a game where the majority and I mean about 95% of the cast has OH options, why is Kano the exception? Even if the OH doesn't lead to a combo, or is a special move, just about everyone else has one. And since we openly bring up that statement then we're in the wrong here?

 

[SaltShaker]

Kano players brought up Jason and there was some slight misinformation being tossed around.

Also, Jason was pretty bad before he got his fixes in this last patch. The Jason community didn't ask for any buffs, just fixes, and we were very pleased to get just that. I see too much of "Since X player has this, Kano should have it. Since Y player has this, Kano should have it." You can't cherry pick things from all the characters in the game and ask for Kano to have it. That's a little unreasonable.

I agree with that. That's I know a lot of people aren't asking for an army of things, but outside of the fixes there are literally 4 buff request. I don't think I've seen any character forums list that small. These are changes that would make him a good mid tier character like a Shinnok or an Ermac, characters he's frequently compared to but nowhere in the same hemisphere as anymore.

As far as character comparison goes, that is the measuring stick. If Sonya can arc kick with full priority from one side of the screen to the other, why does Kano get S1 and grabbed out of Kano balls? If Erron can tic throw off of everything his grandma gave him, why does a grapple based variation in Commando tic throw like shit? If characters can 50/50 you in the corner, why does Kano's Cutt OH whiff in the corner with that non existent hitbox half of the time leaving you to get blown up? Etc etc. These comparisons are brought up to highlight that he is not fine, by comparisons to characters who have similar tools in the game at both a situational and a general level. Since the majority of his similar tools are inferior to his competition, in essence he is inferior to his competition.

 

[LOCO]

Kano players brought up Jason and there was some slight misinformation being tossed around.

Also, Jason was pretty bad before he got his fixes in this last patch. The Jason community didn't ask for any buffs, just fixes, and we were very pleased to get just that. I see too much of "Since X player has this, Kano should have it. Since Y player has this, Kano should have it." You can't cherry pick things from all the characters in the game and ask for Kano to have it. That's a little unreasonable.

i play jason man
theres no misinformation, his OH is good damnit, a safe on block move that needs to be blocked standing
and its not cherry picking, why shouldn't Kano have an OH and every other grappler should? answer me just that? there is no reason

 

[Runks]

Kano players asking for buffs after getting them for no reason this week. Your best Kano players were even saying this forum is full of scrubs that don't know anything. Lol disgusting.

 

[gam224]

This doesn't seem unreasonable.

 

[SaltShaker]

Kano players asking for buffs after getting them for no reason this week. Your best Kano players were even saying this forum is full of scrubs that don't know anything. Lol disgusting.

Our best Kano players don't even play Kano anymore because they've moved on to bigger and better things. But thanks for stopping by.

 

[Genei Jin]

i dropped cybernetic kano not too long ago.

at first he was a good zoner, but the back+1 nerf is too great, especially when other characters 1 and d+1 got their start up reduced. he has no overhead so at least let me frame trap with b+1 nrs! his low starter also has almost no range.

while his cybernetic knives are good, it does below average damage. liu kang and tanya are better zoners than him. their projectiles might not be as fast but it does more damage, they can power it up and also be done in the air. most importantly, they can open the opponent up.

also, up ball doesn't work aside from reversal punishes. it gets stuffed by or trades with nearly every jump in. most of the time, his d+2 is a better anti air.

heres my proposed buffs:

b+1 is neutral on block or b+1 start up is reduced by 2 frames to compensate being -2 on block.

-upball anti airs more consistently

-knife throw gets a 1 to 2% damage buff or have its frame (dis)advantage on block shortened by a few frames.

 

[ando1184]

Kano players asking for buffs after getting them for no reason this week. Your best Kano players were even saying this forum is full of scrubs that don't know anything. Lol disgusting.

And you're obviously just another tym member going along with what you hear over what has been researched and proven. Please don't post if you don't know what you're talking about. I for one don't care what "top players" say anymore because the majority of "top players" look out for themselves and don't play Kano.

 

[FlappyDaniel]

Kano players asking for buffs after getting them for no reason this week. Your best Kano players were even saying this forum is full of scrubs that don't know anything. Lol disgusting.

These are buffs and fixes we've been talkin bout for a while. The choke is the meaningful one we got and it wasnt for no reason, the move was useless. Thanks for your stellar input. you clearly have never played the character and dont have anybody at your scene who plays him at a reasonable level. People think we're just bitching but we're not... we're playing our character heavily (Those who still play him) trying to figure shit out. How to make his mediocre tools work to the fullest. Because his pressure is ok but not great, his grabs are ok but not great. the only place he shines, like really really shines is his AA because of B1 in two variations, but his specials that are supposed to be his AAs barely even work. It's so clear that the character is flawed right now. Not saying he's fuckin trash, I take games against people all the time. But he has areas that are flawed and we're gonna point em out.

 

[ando1184]

I think Kano is a character that visibly shows if the opponent is getting outplayed and people don't like that so they're blowing him up to be better than what he is.

 

[FlappyDaniel]

Yeah, when I win it's because my footsies are better and my reads were on point, and I defended well. I have sort of a pressure flowchart worked out, but there is no game I win where I felt like I just autopiloted with my tools, because you can't with him. That's not bad, I come from Street fighter and I love that kind of slow honest footsie game, but it just doesnt have a place in the game right now, that's all. Kano is like a MK x Street Fighter character or something.

Edit: Again it's not really as big a deal as I might be making it sound. I really dont have to work THAT hard, and I do have some dirt. If it was really too bad for me I would just switch characters. But I can't even win local tournaments right now. so all my thoughts should be taken with a grain of salt or not at all prolly.

 

[Rip Torn]

i play jason man
theres no misinformation, his OH is good damnit, a safe on block move that needs to be blocked standing
and its not cherry picking, why shouldn't Kano have an OH and every other grappler should? answer me just that? there is no reason

I already answered that. If you give Kano an OH then you have to give Jason his knife toss in Relentless, and air temple punch.

I agree with that. That's I know a lot of people aren't asking for an army of things, but outside of the fixes there are literally 4 buff request. I don't think I've seen any character forums list that small. These are changes that would make him a good mid tier character like a Shinnok or an Ermac, characters he's frequently compared to but nowhere in the same hemisphere as anymore.

As far as character comparison goes, that is the measuring stick. If Sonya can arc kick with full priority from one side of the screen to the other, why does Kano get S1 and grabbed out of Kano balls? If Erron can tic throw off of everything his grandma gave him, why does a grapple based variation in Commando tic throw like shit? If characters can 50/50 you in the corner, why does Kano's Cutt OH whiff in the corner with that non existent hitbox half of the time leaving you to get blown up? Etc etc. These comparisons are brought up to highlight that he is not fine, by comparisons to characters who have similar tools in the game at both a situational and a general level. Since the majority of his similar tools are inferior to his competition, in essence he is inferior to his competition.

The OP is actually very reasonable. As for EB's tick throws, they are a little OP, so I don't agree with that comparison. Maybe he should get f4~slam or something like that. b1 might need a small range buff in cutthroat but try using his d3 into b1, it doesn't whiff as often. priority on upball maybe. Straight ball is fine cuz you can't really interrupt it on reaction.

 

[ando1184]

@everyone regarding the OH discussion:

Cassie Cage - df3
Sonya - b1
Jax - OH dash punch
Jacqui - b1/2 (whatever her OH punch is)
Johnny - f2
Kung Lao - b2
Liu kang - b2
Kung Jin - f2
Raiden - b2
Goro - f4
Scorpion - f4
Sub zero - b2
Ermac - f4/3 (his OH kick)
Mileena - f3
Kitana - b2
Erron black - f1
D'Vorah - f2
Kotal Kahn - b2
Tanya - flip kick
Reptile - b2
Takeda - b2
Quan chi - b1/2 (OH sword)
Shinnok - b3
Kenshi - ((balance db4, poss db2(OH demon slash move), kenj df1))
Jason - (slasher - b31, other var - idk command but it's there)

Now idk if you skeptics can do the math but that's nearly everyone in the god damn game that "UNIVERSALLY" (meaning across all variations), that has Over heads in this game. I just wanted to share

 

[Predannok]

@Predannok

a one hit overhead with 27 frames startup thats slower than lobos overhead in injustice lol

 

[LEGI0N47]

Yeah, when I win it's because my footsies are better and my reads were on point, and I defended well. I have sort of a pressure flowchart worked out, but there is no game I win where I felt like I just autopiloted with my tools, because you can't with him. That's not bad, I come from Street fighter and I love that kind of slow honest footsie game, but it just doesnt have a place in the game right now, that's all. Kano is like a MK x Street Fighter character or something.

Edit: Again it's not really as big a deal as I might be making it sound. I really dont have to work THAT hard, and I do have some dirt. If it was really too bad for me I would just switch characters. But I can't even win local tournaments right now. so all my thoughts should be taken with a grain of salt or not at all prolly.

Dude don't sell yourself short just because you're not godlike at the game winning locals all the time. You don't have to be to in order to figure out how things work. Weather it be labbing, actual games, whatever. That's one of the things that really irks me about this community. Your knowledge of the game and ability to win or place are not mutually exclusive as people here would have you think. A lot of your posts are good and you seem to have a good spirit about the game. Don't let any of the clowns on TYM alter that.

 

[SEV]

Other than fixes the only change I think this character could use would be to make his Mean Machine(B312) string overhead. It would give him a mix up option similar to Johnny Cage's 11, where finishing the string will give you an overhead, or you could stop at B31 and go into a low poke or into another B3 that could be poked out of.

 

[buyacushun]

As a player looking for another character to play I've been going through the forums and seeing what the mains are doing. With this patch it seemed like a lot of things opened up ad i figured i'd go back to Kano. He seemed to be a nice defensive character and i wanted a grappler so win/win. Yet it seems like he has a problem or 2 and characters have tools similar to his that just function better.

So my questions to the Kano community is: Would you recommend actually learning this character? Should I just go somewhere else like shaolin KJ? With these things you are asking for, would they be enough for Kano?

EDIT: you can PM me answers. I don't want to change the topic or nothing like that but figured this would be the best place to get answers on the character's current state and possibly his future.

 

[SaltShaker]

As a player looking for another character to play I've been going through the forums and seeing what the mains are doing. With this patch it seemed like a lot of things opened up ad i figured i'd go back to Kano. He seemed to be a nice defensive character and i wanted a grappler so win/win. Yet it seems like he has a problem or 2 and characters have tools similar to his that just function better.

So my questions to the Kano community is: Would you recommend actually learning this character? Should I just go somewhere else like shaolin KJ? With these things you are asking for, would they be enough for Kano?

EDIT: you can PM me answers. I don't want to change the topic or nothing like that but figured this would be the best place to get answers on the character's current state and possibly his future.

If you are looking to pick up a new character, I would not recommend Kano unless youre just playing for fun and winning doesn't really matter to you. If it doesn't, he is a very fun one to use and feels rewarding. If it does, well there's a reason why the first 3 weeks Kano was one of the most used characters in all the early tourneys, and now he's one of the least.

For the 2nd point, yes, I think these changes would be enough. They wouldn't make him "Top 10", but they would keep him out of the pit.

 

[SaltShaker]

@everyone regarding the OH discussion:

Cassie Cage - df3
Sonya - b1
Jax - OH dash punch
Jacqui - b1/2 (whatever her OH punch is)
Johnny - f2
Kung Lao - b2
Liu kang - b2
Kung Jin - f2
Raiden - b2
Goro - f4
Scorpion - f4
Sub zero - b2
Ermac - f4/3 (his OH kick)
Mileena - f3
Kitana - b2
Erron black - f1
D'Vorah - f2
Kotal Kahn - b2
Tanya - flip kick
Reptile - b2
Takeda - b2
Quan chi - b1/2 (OH sword)
Shinnok - b3
Kenshi - ((balance db4, poss db2(OH demon slash move), kenj df1))
Jason - (slasher - b31, other var - idk command but it's there)

Now idk if you skeptics can do the math but that's nearly everyone in the god damn game that "UNIVERSALLY" (meaning across all variations), that has Over heads in this game. I just wanted to share

Wow. The funny thing is you actually missed a couple of OH's!!! This makes me wonder why the heat about asking for an OH. I personally never asked for it, but if almost every character in the game has one in all variations, and even Shinnok was added one, then what's the problem? Counting strings with OH's in them,

I'm curious as to how many characters have absolutely zero. Are there any?? lol