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"Final" UMK3 Tier List before UMK3:TE?

haketh

Champion
Run/glitch/kara jabbing is not as big a part of the game because of that.
Normals in general are really buff in MKT N64 outside of jabs they all got improved which is something MK3 has needed IMO. Sheeva has so much reach she becomes a goddamn wall in MKT, you cannot jump in on her at all.
 

MKK hanzo

Moderator
Awesome tier list Juggs, I will just swap what is coloured. Not much ppl can wreck it with Mileena, who has the same female ninja normals as Kitana, a bit more damage output in GROUND combos and actual punishers for blocked normals, but the difficulty in execution can be daunting to some. She wrecks Sonya, maybe maybe not toe to tow with Kano and Sindel, definately puts up a fight with Kabals jabbing and NW. Destroys Jax almost for free only jabbing. Instant air Sai while NOT as good as MKII, can serve some zonning. tele kick is the PERFECT AA for jump away foes, Sai on block/hit in some setups allow her to do jab inf, continue jab pressure, star an HP combo etc. Has a kick pop up. Female ninja normals like ULTRA FAST HK, good Uppercutt. Slow sweep. Anti crossup with the Roll (not 100% effective on some player priority scenarios), has some Tele Kick throw shenanigans, and the most important: her roll wins 9 out of 10 against predicted/read sweeps in naked contact. Just get outside sweep distance and GJ tapping back, if the foe sweeps EVEN if he fails, just roll that shit. She loses BAD against H Smoke/Ermac due to the HIGH damage output of those 2.

Again: awesome tier list Juggs. Just another side note:

Control method REALLY changes all this, Keyboard adds ALMOST CHEAP advantages vs stick/pad players, like holding 2 directios to prevent throws or making super anti throw specials etc etc

God Tier (S):
1.) Kabal
2.) Human Smoke

Top Tier (A+):
3.) Ermac
4.) Kitana
5.) Nightwolf
6.) Robot Smoke

High Tier (A):
7.) Kung Lao
8.) Jax
9.) Sonya
10.) Reptile

Mid Tier (B):
11.) Kano
12.) Sindel
13.) Mileena
14.) Unmasked Sub-Zero
15.) Scorpion
16.) Stryker
17.) Jade
18.) Sheeva

Bottom Tier (C):
19.) Sektor
20.) Liu Kang
21.) Cyrax
22.) Classic Sub-Zero
23.) Shang Tsung
 
I think Kung and Ermac really fight for number three and four. Ermac falls into the two mistake rule, and even though you only need one mistake for uncle kungs infinite,it takes skill to land that spin and carry into the corner and continue going. Ermac requires two mistakes, but his bread and butter's are 50% easy.
 

dubson

Kombatant
I personally disagree. I have her at the bottom, quite honestly probably the very bottom (I really feel she is probably the worst character in the game). I can't agree with her being higher than Jade, I think Jade is a much better character/has more favorable match-ups.
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
I personally disagree. I have her at the bottom, quite honestly probably the very bottom (I really feel she is probably the worst character in the game). I can't agree with her being higher than Jade, I think Jade is a much better character/has more favorable match-ups.
Based on her jabs alone she cannot be the worst character in the game. Her and Jade are close, but Mileena is more versatile and useful against all of the cast where Jade is only good in a few matches. Aside from those few matches, any matches she wins Mileena also wins or does better. I think it's close but Mileena is clearly better. This isn't to say Jade is bad, the female ninjas have some of the best jabs in the game, and you can often win by only jabbing, lol. Also, some of the best Jades like @NoDoubt wreck shop, so he would be better to speak on her behalf than I would.
 

mortal_jason

Kitana's Bodyguard
Mileena is one of my favorites in UMK3.
Super frustrating however to hit your opponent 20 times and still lose coz you get hit by 2 chain combos.
They nerfed Mileena and Liu way too much for UMK3 :(

Her Roll and Telekick are EXTREMELY punishable.
Ground Sai is a pile of shit that simply negates you being able to land her HP combo since you're charging HP.
Many times I will time the Telekick to AA someone and they will still beat me in the air, or not even get hit when throwing a projectile (Jax, Lao, i.e.)
The same 5 hit Roll corner combo that I do in MK2 for 60+% does half that damage in UMK3- yet takes more skill than any 50% Ermac/H. Smoke combo does.

Air Sai is probably her best bet.
I've snuck out wins vs very tough Lao, Nightwolf, and Kabal players mostly by zoning with them... and then surprising with run-ins/throws.
Because of the Air Sai she may have more potential than Jade.
You make good points.
 

ded

Elder God
God Tier (S):
1.) Kabal
2.) Human Smoke

Top Tier (A+):
3.) Ermac
4.) Kitana
5.) Nightwolf
6.) Robot Smoke

High Tier (A):
7.) Kung Lao
8.) Jax
9.) Sonya
10.) Reptile

Mid Tier (B):
11.) Kano
12.) Sindel
13.) Mileena
14.) Unmasked Sub-Zero
15.) Scorpion
16.) Stryker
17.) Jade
18.) Sheeva

Bottom Tier (C):
19.) Sektor
20.) Liu Kang
21.) Cyrax
22.) Classic Sub-Zero
23.) Shang Tsung
wtf @MKK hanzo How in the world you are putting Jax, Sonya and Rsmoke above Reptile? It's also funny how you describe Mileena' s advantages and yet you put Kano in Mid-Tier, where he has everything that Mileena has + more. We have already discussed with you a lot about Lao, so i will just skip that. Csub is also better than Cyrax. I understand why you put Ermac so high, but there aren't much people who punish sweep with TKS nowdays for example.

Few more things I cant understand:
- It is completely beyond me how you put Sheeva so high, as this character is literally helpless against almost everyone, especially in karajab/gjab games.
- Kitana is 12 or 13, aaFan is not good enough to bring her so up and all the characters above her can literally rape her for seconds.
- Playing on kbd is different, I agree, my tier list is based playing on keyboard tho.

Feel free to argue me, friend, but I doubt you can ;)
 

dubson

Kombatant
Mileena is one of my favorites in UMK3.
Super frustrating however to hit your opponent 20 times and still lose coz you get hit by 2 chain combos.
They nerfed Mileena and Liu way too much for UMK3 :(

Her Roll and Telekick are EXTREMELY punishable.
Ground Sai is a pile of shit that simply negates you being able to land her HP combo since you're charging HP.
Many times I will time the Telekick to AA someone and they will still beat me in the air, or not even get hit when throwing a projectile (Jax, Lao, i.e.)
The same 5 hit Roll corner combo that I do in MK2 for 60+% does half that damage in UMK3- yet takes more skill than any 50% Ermac/H. Smoke combo does.

Air Sai is probably her best bet.
I've snuck out wins vs very tough Lao, Nightwolf, and Kabal players mostly by zoning with them... and then surprising with run-ins/throws.
Because of the Air Sai she may have more potential than Jade.
You make good points.
He made good points? haha, what were they? He didn't really make any points. He mentioned things, but didn't elaborate on why he felt how he did. All he did was take my exact statements and points about Jade and said them about Mileena, lol.

He stated she has more favorable match-ups than Jade (I Disagree)

He stated that Mileena does better against more of the cast (I disagree)

Said she is more "versatile" (I disagree)

Said that having great jabs alone makes you not the worst in the game automatically (I disagree)

One blocked moved from Mileena = easy ~30-60% from anyone, and its a big part of her play or she is the most basic character in the game. Jade doesn't set herself up for any of these huge punishments. Mileena has 3 moves, 2 are amongst the most unsafe in the game and the Air Sai aint doing Shit in this game. Mileena doesn't even have the basic 4 hit kick combo that Jade and Kitana have. Jade Zone game is actually good in conjunction with her projectile immunity. She is "clearly" better. (My opinion)
 
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Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
He made good points? haha, what were they? He didn't really make any points. He mentioned things, but didn't elaborate on why he felt how he did, which he will have to.

He stated she has more favorable match-ups than Jade (I Disagree)

He stated that Mileena does better against more of the cast (I disagree)

Said she is more "versatile" (I disagree)

Said that having great jabs alone makes you not the worst in the game automatically (I disagree)

One blocked moved from Mileena = easy ~30-60% from anyone, and its a big part of her play or she is the most basic character in the game. Jade doesn't set herself up for any of these huge punishments. Mileena has 3 moves, 2 are amongst the most unsafe in the game and the Air Sai aint doing Shit in this game. Mileena doesn't even have the basic 4 hit kick combo that Jade and Kitana have. Jade Zone game is actually good in conjunction with her projectile immunity. She is "clearly" better. (My opinion)
One blocked move from Kung Lao = easy ~30-60% from anyone, and it's a big part of his play. Kung has 3 moves, all 3 are amongst the most unsafe in the game and Kungs projectile is probably the worst in the game and ain't doing shit in this game.

None of what you said explains why she's the worst character in the game or worse than Jade. If you're throwing out naked teleports and rolls, you will get punished, much like throwing out a naked Kabal spin will get you punished. But like Kabals spin, Mileena's roll is quick and can catch you off guard, and both are easily punishable on block. iAFB with Mileena is decent, not as good as it is in MK2 or as good as other iAFBs in the game, but it's definitely good if used correctly. Her teleport kick is great for air to air, more specifically on jump backs, which happen a lot. I mean, she has a pop-up combo where Jade does not, and she definitely out damages Jade in both normal combo damage and certainly in punishment damage.

And this isn't even getting into all the match-ups stuff which you haven't even elaborated on either, which is what I was waiting for. All the above aside, what are Jade's favorable MU's compared to Mileena?
 
Jade has projectile immunity, boomerang options, and her glow kick is quick on startup, and while it doesn't travel as far, tends to be less punishable.

She doesn't have a popup, but her 4 hit knockdown into (mostly) unblockable sweep leads to easy damage and instant pressure. - just like Kitana's knockdown.

She doesn't have an air projectile, I will grant that. But given they all have the same normal properties, I think Jade's boomerang options, immunity, and knockdown in place of pop up combo give her the edge by a few spots.
 

dubson

Kombatant
One blocked move from Kung Lao = easy ~30-60% from anyone, and it's a big part of his play. Kung has 3 moves, all 3 are amongst the most unsafe in the game and Kungs projectile is probably the worst in the game and ain't doing shit in this game.

None of what you said explains why she's the worst character in the game or worse than Jade. If you're throwing out naked teleports and rolls, you will get punished, much like throwing out a naked Kabal spin will get you punished. But like Kabals spin, Mileena's roll is quick and can catch you off guard, and both are easily punishable on block. iAFB with Mileena is decent, not as good as it is in MK2 or as good as other iAFBs in the game, but it's definitely good if used correctly. Her teleport kick is great for air to air, more specifically on jump backs, which happen a lot. I mean, she has a pop-up combo where Jade does not, and she definitely out damages Jade in both normal combo damage and certainly in punishment damage.

And this isn't even getting into all the match-ups stuff which you haven't even elaborated on either, which is what I was waiting for. All the above aside, what are Jade's favorable MU's compared to Mileena?

Were comparing Mileena and Jade. Not Mileena and Kung Lao.

Kung Lao has 4 moves, not 3.

Kung Lao's projectile is no worse than Mileena's Sai.

aAFB with Mileena is not decent, LOL. Not at all. Not good at all.

Her Teleport kick is not that great for air to air. Who the hell is jumping around like that, good players rarely leave the ground, and will rarely get his by that move (which is easily beat air to air btw) Horrible option and position for her to be relying on.

I am very sorry, but you cannot compare Mileenas Roll (or any move) to Kabals Spin.

A pop-up combo, you mean? Oh lawd, that means she isn't bottom tier I suppose? Huge negative. Means nothing in a blank context… Pointless "point"

She does not out damage Jade in normal combo damage (quite close) Mileena has the edge on punishment damage/and punishers

I promise you, Mileenas roll rarely catches anything by surprise, especially on good players who use GJ's. Playing with fire there, my friend. She can't do it. Punish, sure, but she aint throwin it out like that.

Zone game I give to Jade by far, rushdown I give to Jade by far.

I will go through a match-up analysis when I have the time.

Mileena may or may not be better against Kabal, but that is one match-up. You are basing it strictly off of bocked spin potential, lol. I would rather have Jade anyway and run right through his iAFB spam, potentially shutting it down, altering his game and forcing him to respect it. You, again, can't base a characters tier placement based off of one match-up (even if it is the best character in the game). Agaist H Smoke I would much rather have Jade.

Your basing all of this off of theory fighter when I am basing it off the fact that I can kompetitive with both Jade and Mileena and every character in the game. Last time I faced your Mileena and Jade, well, we just won't talk about that. I will admit I do pride myself on my Jade and consider myself a Jade specialist as you do Sheeva.

Your looking for Hanzo and NoDoubt to make your points for you anyway so you may as well just be indifferent here…. Mileena jumps #13… kant believe that.
 
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Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Kung Lao's projectile is no worse than Mileena's Sai.

aAFB with Mileena is not decent, LOL. Not at all. Not good at all.

Her Teleport kick is not that great for air to air. Who the hell is jumping around like that, good players rarely leave the ground, and will rarely get his by that move (which is easily beat air to air btw) Horrible option and position for her to be relying on.

A pop-up combo, you mean? Oh lawd, that means she isn't bottom tier I suppose? Huge negative. Means nothing in a blank context… Pointless "point"

She does not out damage Jade in normal combo damage (quite close) Mileena has the edge on punishment damage/and punishers

Zone game I give to Jade by far, rushdown I give to Jade by far.

I will go through a match-up analysis when I have the time.

Mileena may or may not be better against Kabal, but that is one match-up. You are basing it strictly off of bocked spin potential, lol. I would rather have Jade anyway and run right through his iAFB spam, potentially shutting it down, altering his game and forcing him to respect it. You, again, can't base a characters tier placement based off of one match-up (even if it is the best character in the game). Agaist H Smoke I would much rather have Jade.

Your basing all of this off of theory fighter when I am basing it off the fact that I can kompetitive with both Jade and Mileena and every character in the game. Last time I faced your Mileena and Jade, well, we just won't talk about that. I will admit I do pride myself on my Jade and consider myself a Jade specialist as you do Sheeva.
I don't know if you actually read my post or just glanced at it, but I didn't even mention her match-up against Kabal. I said that like Kabals spin, her roll is punishable. Does Kabals spin being punishable make it not good? Of course not, which is my point.

I'm not theory fighting at all. In fact, my Jade is much better than my Mileena. The last time we played was like in 2008 when I was complete ass at the game, lmao. I will bet $100 that no one in this thread but @R.E.O. @Shock and @MKK hanzo could even come close to beating me in a ft10, with me random selecting. But that is besides the point.

We aren't talking about player skill here, we are talking about tiers and match-ups. Like I said, Jade and Mileena are close, but Mileena has better matches and it isn't possible that she's the worst based on her tools and simply her jab.
 

dubson

Kombatant
I don't know if you actually read my post or just glanced at it, but I didn't even mention her match-up against Kabal. I said that like Kabals spin, her roll is punishable. Does Kabals spin being punishable make it not good? Of course not, which is my point.

I'm not theory fighting at all. In fact, my Jade is much better than my Mileena. The last time we played was like in 2008 when I was complete ass at the game, lmao. I will bet $100 that no one in this thread but @R.E.O. @Shock and @MKK hanzo could even come close to beating me in a ft10, with me random selecting. But that is besides the point.

We aren't talking about player skill here, we are talking about tiers and match-ups. Like I said, Jade and Mileena are close, but Mileena has better matches and it isn't possible that she's the worst based on her tools and simply her jab.
LMAO. I will destroy you random select ft20, consider it a challenge. Make it 200, whatever you want . Record it too. You went too far bud.

If you thought it was bad in 2008 just imagine now :)
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
LMAO. I will destroy you random select ft20, consider it a challenge. Make it 200, whatever you want . Record it too. You went too far bud.

If you thought it was bad in 2008 just imagine now :)
Which tournament do you want to do this at? Final Round is around the corner you know ;)
 

dubson

Kombatant
Which tournament do you want to do this at? Final Round is around the corner you know ;)
We can do it right now, online ;)

I need more time and money to fly to a tournament, why waste time buddy?

Your the one who made your absurd claims, people are going to call you out. I know others in this thread who will compete against you, your out of line, lol. You hide and play with 3 people, I play everyone :) an am out in the open


Your jade may be better than your Milenna, but that dosent say much I'm afraid. Offline, you stand less a chance vs me. Random select? Even less. Money on line? :)


I live in in the midwest, final round is in your state? Grow up and man up.
 

dubson

Kombatant
Please calm down guys, or I'll be forced to smack both of you, lol.

However, I do think that doing this is better off at an offline event, especially for money.
Well obviously, but Im not blessed to have majors in my part of the country that support old school MK, and he won't fly out here. All of them are on the east coast, where you and he lives. So its easy to hide behind that.

Actually, there are some in Chicago that do. Last time I went, I had the honor of playing MOE on arcade casuals, on an actual authentic UMK3 arcade machine. We could do it there, right Juggs??
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
We can do it right now, online ;)

I need more time and money to fly to a tournament, why waste time buddy?

Your the one who made your absurd claims, people are going to call you out. I know others in this thread who will compete against you, your out of line, lol.


Your jade may be better than your Milenna, but that docent say much I'm afraid. Offline, you stand less a chance vs me. Random select? Even less. Money on line? :)


I live in in the midwest, final round is in your state? Grow up and man up.
Lol... yeah, let's do a money match online, seems legit.

There will be tons of tournaments for MKX and hopefully UMK3:TE, all around the country. Save up bruh, we can do our MM at any one of these tournaments, it's your call. If you don't want to do that, then get MAME or a 360, then we can test the connection and go from there.

Also, nothing I said was "absurd", don't know what you're referring to here.
 

dubson

Kombatant
Lol... yeah, let's do a money match online, seems legit.

There will be tons of tournaments for MKX and hopefully UMK3:TE, all around the country. Save up bruh, we can do our MM at any one of these tournaments, it's your call. If you don't want to do that, then get MAME or a 360, then we can test the connection and go from there.

Also, nothing I said was "absurd", don't know what you're referring to here.
Only part that was absurd was your cocky, naive post that 3 people in this thread can beat you random select ft10. You know better than to say that to me and/or leave my name out of that bud. As well as some others in this thread. Very out of line.

Chicago??? So I have to get XBL but you won't get PSN, like you already don't. I will have MAME soon. XBL too, just for you old friend.
 

9.95

Champion
Well obviously, but Im not blessed to have majors in my part of the country that support old school MK, and he won't fly out here. All of them are on the east coast, where you and he lives. So its easy to hide behind that.

Actually, there are some in Chicago that do. Last time I went, I had the honor of playing MOE on arcade casuals, on an actual authentic UMK3 arcade machine. We could do it there, right Juggs??
Actually, it'd awesome if we could get you to one of the NE majors. NEC, WB, ECT...whatever. Needs to happen and need @Juggs to be there too. Then you can have your MM and it can be streamed, and we all get to chill afterward.
 

Konqrr

MK11 Kabal = MK9 Kitana
He made good points? haha, what were they? He didn't really make any points. He mentioned things, but didn't elaborate on why he felt how he did, which he will have to.

He stated she has more favorable match-ups than Jade (I Disagree)

He stated that Mileena does better against more of the cast (I disagree)

Said she is more "versatile" (I disagree)

Said that having great jabs alone makes you not the worst in the game automatically (I disagree)

One blocked moved from Mileena = easy ~30-60% from anyone, and its a big part of her play or she is the most basic character in the game. Jade doesn't set herself up for any of these huge punishments. Mileena has 3 moves, 2 are amongst the most unsafe in the game and the Air Sai aint doing Shit in this game. Mileena doesn't even have the basic 4 hit kick combo that Jade and Kitana have. Jade Zone game is actually good in conjunction with her projectile immunity. She is "clearly" better. (My opinion)
Mileena hk,hk,ulk,uhk = 4 hit kick combo.